Preparation for Great Controversy issues, Chapter 28

[reddogs]

Prep for Chapter 28:

Jack here is what Tall posted earlier, its in red : (put your answers in green):

Response to Red part 1.





Quote:
Originally Posted by reddogs
The Bible predicts that the remnant would possess the spirit of prophecy and that the restoration of this gift would be one of the issues that Satan would war against.

And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 NKJV
...Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10 NKJV


First off, I do think the remnant will have the testimony of Jesus. The promise is to all who are far off. But there is more than one manifestation of it. Your daughters, old men, etc. all are a part of it.

Second, the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy—again not limited to one person, and CERTAINLY including those who had the Scriptures, inspired by that Spirit which testified about Christ.

Quote:

God's remnant must thus possess the spirit of prophecy in order to qualify as the remnant and we need to understand the issues involved. There is nothing more dangerous to Satan, than the clear revelation of the will of God.

The gift of prophecy that testified to Jesus was already operating in the apostle's days. And in John's day they would be holding to it.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Here Luke describes the events, with the Spirit being poured out. Then Peter describes it:

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


The outpouring of the Spirit, predicted by Joel, started in the time of the apostles. The testimony of Jesus resulted—Peter immediately testified under inspiration of Christ to them. We eventually had the writing of the NT Scriptures which were a testimony of Jesus.

Therefore it is clear that EGW , even if proven to be a prophet, is not the sum total of what this text is talking about. It is talking about the Spirit-given testimony regarding Christ. And they had it IN JOHN’S day.

Now can there be later prophets? Sure. Peter seems to indicate so. The gift is still there. But they must be tested by earlier revelation. Just as the prophets in the NT had to be tested by the OT Scriptures. Previous revelation tests new revelation.

So can EGW be part of this testimony of Jesus? Yes. If she passes the test. Is she required for it? No. People had the testimony of Jesus long before that...."

 

[reddogs]

Jack, here is some the issues that some have brought up on Chapter 28:

Chapter 28, Facing Life=s Record (The Investigative Judgment), 479-491
ERROR 157: There is a serious change in theology in this chapter which is not pointed out by SDAs. In chapter 23, pages 409-422 only confessed and forgiven sins of God’s children have defiled the sanctuary through sacrificial atonement. However, now, in chapter 28, pages 479-491, every sin committed by believers has defiled the sanctuary and must be removed. The unconfessed sins condemn the believer and cause his/her name to be blotted out of the book of life.


GC480: Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.
ERROR 158: Christ actually entered the Presence of God in the Most Holy Place at his ascension B not 1844.
ERROR 159: The atonement sacrifice was completed on the cross. The SDA concept of incomplete atonement is unique to themselves.

GC480: ... So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work and takes place at a later period. ‘[For the time is come that] Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?’ 1 Peter 4:17.
ERROR 160: Notice that EGW omitted “For the time is come that” from First Peter 4:17. This changes the meaning and disagrees with her interpretation.
ERROR 161: EGW ignores the Bema (the Judgment Seat of Christ which determines degrees of rewards for the righteous) and confuses it with the judgment of the wicked.

GC480: The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment.
ERROR 162: EGW teaches that, until 1844 God had not determined the final fate of any person who has ever lived. Full atonement had not been applied to any person who accepted Christ. The books must be examined first, beginning in 1844.

GC480a: Says the prophet Daniel: ‘The judgment was set and the books were opened=’ [Dan. 7:10]. The Revelator, describing the same scene, adds: ‘Another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works.’ Revelation 20:12.
ERROR 163: The little horn is judged and punished in Daniel 7 B not God’s saints.
ERROR 164: Revelation 20:12 cannot possibly refer to the “same scene” if the Investigative Judgment has supposedly ended 1000 years earlier when Christ came in Revelation 19.

GC482: Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness.
ERROR 165: Even if this is true, for the saints it is at the Bema, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and is only for the purpose of determining degrees of rewards.

GC482: Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.
ERROR 166: EGW’s context makes one ask “According to you, who then can be saved?”




GC482: The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: “Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment.” Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14.
ERROR 167: This is Old Testament imagery. In the New Covenant man is tested by what he/she has done with Jesus Christ (Jn 1:12; 3:16; 4:14; 5:24; 16:9; Rom 1:16; 10:9, 10).

GC482: The apostle James admonishes his brethren: “So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” James 2:12.
ERROR 168: The “law of liberty” is not the same thing as either the Ten Commandments or the Pentateuch. It is the “law of love” which produces spontaneous obedience from those who are new creations in Christ. The OT law was never described as a law of “liberty.” It was called a fence, a hedge and a ministration of death.

GC482: Those who in the judgment are “accounted worthy” will have a part in the resurrection of the just.
ERROR 169: EGW teaches that nobody, from Adam until 1844, had been accounted worthy
of resurrection. This includes Enoch and Elijah.

GC482: And again [Jesus] declares that “they that have done good” shall come forth “unto the resurrection of life.” John 5:29. The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of “the resurrection of life.” Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided.
ERROR 170: EGW ignores John 5:24, 25 “Verily, verily, In say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, [already] has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment [Greek: krisis - an active judging process]; but is passed [Greek perfect tense] from death unto life. Verily, verily, In say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” The present gospel response determines who will be resurrected.

GC483: As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living.
ERROR 171: The righteous have already been judged and granted “eternal life” when they responded to the gospel and their names are already in the book of life (Luke 10:20). The souls of the righteous are already in heaven (Gen 5:24; 2 Kg 2:11; Mt 27:53; 2 Cor 5:8; Heb 12:1; Rev 5:8-10). However, there is no assurance of salvation within Adventism today.

 

[reddogs]

Jack, here is the rest of the Chapter 28:

GC483: Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, un-repented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance.
ERROR 172: This indicates the immediate loss of salvation every time a person commits a sin.
ERROR 173: This makes assurance of salvation impossible.
ERROR 174: This seems to say that God will even “un-forgive” previously forgiven sins. Yet the Day of Atonement actually covered general sins which had not been specifically atoned through the daily ministry of sins of ignorance.


GC483: The Lord declared to Moses: “Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will In blot out of My book.” Exodus 32:33.
ERROR 175: EGW ignored the context. God killed thousands because the “book” referred to here is the “book of the living.” Moses himself was eventually “blotted out” for his sin and was not allowed to enter Canaan. A generation of millions died (were blotted out) and not allowed to enter Canaan. Yet Moses did not lose his salvation. There is no direct connection to the N. T. “book of life” of those who believe in Christ.

GC483: And says the prophet Ezekiel: “When the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned.” Ezekiel 18:24.
ERROR 176: Again EGW ignores the context. The text is not discussing “un-forgiving” sins. A person’s previous righteousness will not deliver him from the discipline of current sin.

GC483: All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life.
ERROR 177: This favorite SDA quote ignores the context on the same page: “When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, un-repented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance.” Therefore, EGW must mean truly repented “of every single sin” as indicated in her many perfectionist statements. Notice that previously forgiven sins will not be blotted out until after 1844. No assurance of salvation is possible while alive.

GC483: The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: “I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.” Isaiah 43:25.
ERROR 178: Isaiah was speaking of the present time B not since 1844.

GC483: Said Jesus: “He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.” Rev. 3:5.
ERROR 179: In Revelation 4 and 5:8-10 the saints are already in heaven and clothed in white long before 1844 (per the SDA interpretation of Revelation). Revelation 3:5 does not discuss the Investigative Judgment.

GC483-484: The divine Intercessor presents the plea that all who have overcome through faith in His blood be forgiven their transgressions, that they be restored to their Eden home, and crowned as joint heirs with Himself to “the first dominion.” Micah 4:8.
ERROR 180: This “plan” was presented, not after 1844, but before the “foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8; Eph 1:4, 5; Rom 8:28-30). God is omniscient. Whether Calvinists or Arminians are correct, God still knows who will be saved because he is not limited in time and knows the future. EGW’s statement is an insult to God’s omniscience.

GC484 While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. … Now he points to the record of their lives…

ERROR 181: Who is Jesus pleading with? The Bible says that the Father gave the function of judgment to the Son (Jn 3:16-18; 1 Cor 15:26-28). EGW also places Satan in the Most Holy Place accusing the believers who are not present.

GC485: The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of SINS is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the SINS of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. [quotes Acts 3:19,20] (Compare GC417-426 with 479-493.)
ERROR 182: The false doctrine of the Investigative Judgment has led to the false doctrine of the Sabbath and to the false doctrine of the nature of man.

GC485: As the priest, in removing the SINS from the sanctuary, confessed THEM upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place ALL THESE SINS upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the SINS of Israel, was sent away “unto a land not inhabited” (Leviticus 16:22).
ERROR 183: Once again EGW says that Satan will ultimately bear all sins away. Satan, not Jesus, is the SDA sin-bearer.

GC486: Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God.
GC486-487: Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn.
ERROR 184: This is false perfectionism to its ultimate fantasy. Who, then, can be saved?

GC488: he subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill.
ERROR 185: Since few SDAs can even begin to explain the Investigative Judgment doctrine, then few of them can be saved.

 

[AMujeres]

Prep for Chapter 28:

Jack here is what Tall posted earlier, its in redput you answers in green):

Response to Red part 1.





Quote:
Originally Posted by reddogs
The Bible predicts that the remnant would possess the spirit of prophecy and that the restoration of this gift would be one of the issues that Satan would war against.

And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 NKJV
...Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10 NKJV


First off, I do think the remnant will have the testimony of Jesus. The promise is to all who are far off. But there is more than one manifestation of it. Your daughters, old men, etc. all are a part of it.

Second, the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy—again not limited to one person, and CERTAINLY including those who had the Scriptures, inspired by that Spirit which testified about Christ.

Quote:

God's remnant must thus possess the spirit of prophecy in order to qualify as the remnant and we need to understand the issues involved. There is nothing more dangerous to Satan, than the clear revelation of the will of God.

The gift of prophecy that testified to Jesus was already operating in the apostle's days. And in John's day they would be holding to it.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Here Luke describes the events, with the Spirit being poured out. Then Peter describes it:

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


The outpouring of the Spirit, predicted by Joel, started in the time of the apostles. The testimony of Jesus resulted—Peter immediately testified under inspiration of Christ to them. We eventually had the writing of the NT Scriptures which were a testimony of Jesus.

Therefore it is clear that EGW , even if proven to be a prophet, is not the sum total of what this text is talking about. It is talking about the Spirit-given testimony regarding Christ. And they had it IN JOHN’S day.

Now can there be later prophets? Sure. Peter seems to indicate so. The gift is still there. But they must be tested by earlier revelation. Just as the prophets in the NT had to be tested by the OT Scriptures. Previous revelation tests new revelation.

So can EGW be part of this testimony of Jesus? Yes. If she passes the test. Is she required for it? No. People had the testimony of Jesus long before that...."

I will answer this in the morning.

 

[AMujeres]

Jack, here is some the issues that some have brought up on Chapter 28:

Chapter 28, Facing Life=s Record (The Investigative Judgment), 479-491
ERROR 157: There is a serious change in theology in this chapter which is not pointed out by SDAs. In chapter 23, pages 409-422 only confessed and forgiven sins of God’s children have defiled the sanctuary through sacrificial atonement. However, now, in chapter 28, pages 479-491, every sin committed by believers has defiled the sanctuary and must be removed. The unconfessed sins condemn the believer and cause his/her name to be blotted out of the book of life.


GC480: Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.
ERROR 158: Christ actually entered the Presence of God in the Most Holy Place at his ascension B not 1844.
ERROR 159: The atonement sacrifice was completed on the cross. The SDA concept of incomplete atonement is unique to themselves.

GC480: ... So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work and takes place at a later period. ‘[For the time is come that] Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?’ 1 Peter 4:17.
ERROR 160: Notice that EGW omitted “For the time is come that” from First Peter 4:17. This changes the meaning and disagrees with her interpretation.
ERROR 161: EGW ignores the Bema (the Judgment Seat of Christ which determines degrees of rewards for the righteous) and confuses it with the judgment of the wicked.

GC480: The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment.
ERROR 162: EGW teaches that, until 1844 God had not determined the final fate of any person who has ever lived. Full atonement had not been applied to any person who accepted Christ. The books must be examined first, beginning in 1844.

GC480a: Says the prophet Daniel: ‘The judgment was set and the books were opened=’ [Dan. 7:10]. The Revelator, describing the same scene, adds: ‘Another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works.’ Revelation 20:12.
ERROR 163: The little horn is judged and punished in Daniel 7 B not God’s saints.
ERROR 164: Revelation 20:12 cannot possibly refer to the “same scene” if the Investigative Judgment has supposedly ended 1000 years earlier when Christ came in Revelation 19.

GC482: Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness.
ERROR 165: Even if this is true, for the saints it is at the Bema, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and is only for the purpose of determining degrees of rewards.

GC482: Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.
ERROR 166: EGW’s context makes one ask “According to you, who then can be saved?”




GC482: The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: “Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment.” Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14.
ERROR 167: This is Old Testament imagery. In the New Covenant man is tested by what he/she has done with Jesus Christ (Jn 1:12; 3:16; 4:14; 5:24; 16:9; Rom 1:16; 10:9, 10).

GC482: The apostle James admonishes his brethren: “So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” James 2:12.
ERROR 168: The “law of liberty” is not the same thing as either the Ten Commandments or the Pentateuch. It is the “law of love” which produces spontaneous obedience from those who are new creations in Christ. The OT law was never described as a law of “liberty.” It was called a fence, a hedge and a ministration of death.

GC482: Those who in the judgment are “accounted worthy” will have a part in the resurrection of the just.
ERROR 169: EGW teaches that nobody, from Adam until 1844, had been accounted worthy
of resurrection. This includes Enoch and Elijah.

GC482: And again [Jesus] declares that “they that have done good” shall come forth “unto the resurrection of life.” John 5:29. The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of “the resurrection of life.” Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided.
ERROR 170: EGW ignores John 5:24, 25 “Verily, verily, In say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, [already] has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment [Greek: krisis - an active judging process]; but is passed [Greek perfect tense] from death unto life. Verily, verily, In say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” The present gospel response determines who will be resurrected.

GC483: As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living.
ERROR 171: The righteous have already been judged and granted “eternal life” when they responded to the gospel and their names are already in the book of life (Luke 10:20). The souls of the righteous are already in heaven (Gen 5:24; 2 Kg 2:11; Mt 27:53; 2 Cor 5:8; Heb 12:1; Rev 5:8-10). However, there is no assurance of salvation within Adventism today.

I will answer this in the morning.

 

[AMujeres]

Jack, here is the rest of the Chapter 28:

GC483: Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, un-repented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance.
ERROR 172: This indicates the immediate loss of salvation every time a person commits a sin.
ERROR 173: This makes assurance of salvation impossible.
ERROR 174: This seems to say that God will even “un-forgive” previously forgiven sins. Yet the Day of Atonement actually covered general sins which had not been specifically atoned through the daily ministry of sins of ignorance.


GC483: The Lord declared to Moses: “Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will In blot out of My book.” Exodus 32:33.
ERROR 175: EGW ignored the context. God killed thousands because the “book” referred to here is the “book of the living.” Moses himself was eventually “blotted out” for his sin and was not allowed to enter Canaan. A generation of millions died (were blotted out) and not allowed to enter Canaan. Yet Moses did not lose his salvation. There is no direct connection to the N. T. “book of life” of those who believe in Christ.

GC483: And says the prophet Ezekiel: “When the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned.” Ezekiel 18:24.
ERROR 176: Again EGW ignores the context. The text is not discussing “un-forgiving” sins. A person’s previous righteousness will not deliver him from the discipline of current sin.

GC483: All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life.
ERROR 177: This favorite SDA quote ignores the context on the same page: “When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, un-repented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance.” Therefore, EGW must mean truly repented “of every single sin” as indicated in her many perfectionist statements. Notice that previously forgiven sins will not be blotted out until after 1844. No assurance of salvation is possible while alive.

GC483: The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: “I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.” Isaiah 43:25.
ERROR 178: Isaiah was speaking of the present time B not since 1844.

GC483: Said Jesus: “He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.” Rev. 3:5.
ERROR 179: In Revelation 4 and 5:8-10 the saints are already in heaven and clothed in white long before 1844 (per the SDA interpretation of Revelation). Revelation 3:5 does not discuss the Investigative Judgment.

GC483-484: The divine Intercessor presents the plea that all who have overcome through faith in His blood be forgiven their transgressions, that they be restored to their Eden home, and crowned as joint heirs with Himself to “the first dominion.” Micah 4:8.
ERROR 180: This “plan” was presented, not after 1844, but before the “foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8; Eph 1:4, 5; Rom 8:28-30). God is omniscient. Whether Calvinists or Arminians are correct, God still knows who will be saved because he is not limited in time and knows the future. EGW’s statement is an insult to God’s omniscience.

GC484 While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. … Now he points to the record of their lives…

ERROR 181: Who is Jesus pleading with? The Bible says that the Father gave the function of judgment to the Son (Jn 3:16-18; 1 Cor 15:26-28). EGW also places Satan in the Most Holy Place accusing the believers who are not present.

GC485: The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of SINS is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the SINS of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. [quotes Acts 3:19,20] (Compare GC417-426 with 479-493.)
ERROR 182: The false doctrine of the Investigative Judgment has led to the false doctrine of the Sabbath and to the false doctrine of the nature of man.

GC485: As the priest, in removing the SINS from the sanctuary, confessed THEM upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place ALL THESE SINS upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the SINS of Israel, was sent away “unto a land not inhabited” (Leviticus 16:22).
ERROR 183: Once again EGW says that Satan will ultimately bear all sins away. Satan, not Jesus, is the SDA sin-bearer.

GC486: Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God.
GC486-487: Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn.
ERROR 184: This is false perfectionism to its ultimate fantasy. Who, then, can be saved?

GC488: he subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill.
ERROR 185: Since few SDAs can even begin to explain the Investigative Judgment doctrine, then few of them can be saved.

I will answer this in the morning.

 

[reddogs]

Everyone, I'd like to introduce Jack (aka AMujeres) who is a close friend and confidant. I've asked him to assist me in a formal 'defense' on some the issues that have been brought up on the Great Controversy (chapter 28 specifically). I dont want this to be a back and forth debate thread as we will do that later, just a preparation of some of the documentation and analysis of the issues in chapter 28. If you would like to add your research or a link to a good site that addresses the issues, I only ask if you could do it in one or two posts so as not to clutter up the thread.

Thanks...
Red

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Not to clutter anything, but I wanted to welcome Jack to our forum. Nice to meet you.

Looks like this is going to be very in depth. Looking forward to it!

 

[reddogs]

Thanks Crimson for the welcome, Jack had a few guests come for Sabbath so he will continue going over what I gave him and reply a bit later, and here is the chapter in question:


The Great Controversy
Between Christ and Satan



Chapter 28

Facing Life's Record


"I beheld," says the prophet Daniel, "till thrones were placed, and One that was Ancient of Days did sit: His raiment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool; His throne was fiery flames, and the wheels thereof burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9, 10, R.V.
Thus was presented to the prophet's vision the great and solemn day when the characters and the lives of men should pass in review before the Judge of all the earth, and to every man should be rendered "according to his works." The Ancient of Days is God the Father. Says the psalmist: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2. It is He, the source of all being, and the fountain of all law, that is to preside in the judgment. And holy angels as ministers and witnesses, in number "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands," attend this great tribunal.
"And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him Page 480

dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17.
The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." The revelator, describing the same scene, adds: "Another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.
The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples: "Rejoice, Page 481

because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3. Daniel, looking down to "a time of trouble, such as never was," declares that God's people shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book." And the revelator says that those only shall enter the city of God whose names "are written in the Lamb's book of life." Daniel 12:1; Revelation 21:27.

"A book of remembrance" is written before God, in which are recorded the good deeds of "them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon His name." Malachi 3:16. Their words of faith, their acts of love, are registered in heaven. Nehemiah refers to this when he says: "Remember me, O my God, . . . and wipe not out my good deeds that I have done for the house of my God." Nehemiah 13:14. In the book of God's remembrance every deed of righteousness is immortalized. There every temptation resisted, every evil overcome, every word of tender pity expressed, is faithfully chronicled. And every act of sacrifice, every suffering and sorrow endured for Christ's sake, is recorded. Says the psalmist: "Thou tellest my wanderings: put Thou my tears into Thy bottle: are they not in Thy book?" Psalm 56:8.
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. Page 482


Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.
The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment." Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14. The apostle James admonishes his brethren: "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12
Those who in the judgment are "accounted worthy" will have a part in the resurrection of the just. Jesus said: "They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, . . . are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:35, 36. And again He declares that "they that have done good" shall come forth "unto the resurrection of life." John 5:29. The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of "the resurrection of life." Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided.
Jesus will appear as their advocate, to plead in their behalf before God. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." I John 2:1. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." "Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 9:24; 7:25. Page 483


As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.
All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33.
The deepest interest manifested among men in the decisions of earthly tribunals but faintly represents the interest Page 484

evinced in the heavenly courts when the names entered in the book of life come up in review before the Judge of all the earth. The divine Intercessor presents the plea that all who have overcome through faith in His blood be forgiven their transgressions, that they be restored to their Eden home, and crowned as joint heirs with Himself to "the first dominion." Micah 4:8. Satan in his efforts to deceive and tempt our race had thought to frustrate the divine plan in man's creation; but Christ now asks that this plan be carried into effect as if man had never fallen. He asks for His people not only pardon and justification, full and complete, but a share in His glory and a seat upon His throne.

While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.
Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness, He lifts His wounded hands before the Father and the holy angels, saying: I know them by name. I have graven them on the palms of My hands. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17. And to the accuser of His people He declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2. Christ will clothe His faithful ones with His own righteousness, that He may present them to His Father "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Their names stand enrolled in the book of life, and concerning them it is written: "They shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy." Revelation 3:4. Page 485

 

[reddogs]

Thus will be realized the complete fulfillment of the new-covenant promise: "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." Jeremiah 31:34; 50:20. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." Isaiah 4:2, 3.
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ." Acts 3:19, 20. When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be.
In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the Page 486

full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil.

At the time appointed for the judgment--the close of the 2300 days, in 1844--began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God. He may have committed his evil deeds in the light of day or in the darkness of night; but they were open and manifest before Him with whom we have to do. Angels of God witnessed each sin and registered it in the unerring records. Sin may be concealed, denied, covered up from father, mother, wife, children, and associates; no one but the guilty actors may cherish the least suspicion of the wrong; but it is laid bare before the intelligences of heaven. The darkness of the darkest night, the secrecy of all deceptive arts, is not sufficient to veil one thought from the knowledge of the Eternal. God has an exact record of every unjust account and every unfair dealing. He is not deceived by appearances of piety. He makes no mistakes in His estimation of character. Men may be deceived by those who are corrupt in heart, but God pierces all disguises and reads the inner life.
How solemn is the thought! Day after day, passing into eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of heaven. Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth cannot call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by Page 487

us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn.

As the features of the countenance are reproduced with unerring accuracy on the polished plate of the artist, so the character is faithfully delineated in the books above. Yet how little solicitude is felt concerning that record which is to meet the gaze of heavenly beings. Could the veil which separates the visible from the invisible world be swept back, and the children of men behold an angel recording every word and deed, which they must meet again in the judgment, how many words that are daily uttered would remain unspoken, how many deeds would remain undone.
In the judgment the use made of every talent will be scrutinized. How have we employed the capital lent us of Heaven? Will the Lord at His coming receive His own with usury? Have we improved the powers entrusted us, in hand and heart and brain, to the glory of God and the blessing of the world? How have we used our time, our pen, our voice, our money, our influence? What have we done for Christ, in the person of the poor, the afflicted, the orphan, or the widow? God has made us the depositaries of His holy word; what have we done with the light and truth given us to make men wise unto salvation? No value is attached to a mere profession of faith in Christ; only the love which is shown by works is counted genuine. Yet it is love alone which in the sight of Heaven makes any act of value. Whatever is done from love, however small it may appear in the estimation of men, is accepted and rewarded of God.
The hidden selfishness of men stands revealed in the books of heaven. There is the record of unfulfilled duties to their fellow men, of forgetfulness of the Saviour's claims. There they will see how often were given to Satan the time, thought, and strength that belonged to Christ. Sad is the record which angels bear to heaven. Intelligent beings, professed followers of Christ, are absorbed in the acquirement of worldly possessions or the enjoyment of earthly pleasures. Money, time, and strength are sacrificed for display and Page 488

self-indulgence; but few are the moments devoted to prayer, to the searching of the Scriptures, to humiliation of soul and confession of sin.

Satan invents unnumbered schemes to occupy our minds, that they may not dwell upon the very work with which we ought to be best acquainted. The archdeceiver hates the great truths that bring to view an atoning sacrifice and an all-powerful mediator. He knows that with him everything depends on his diverting minds from Jesus and His truth.
Those who would share the benefits of the Saviour's mediation should permit nothing to interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in the fear of God. The precious hours, instead of being given to pleasure, to display, or to gain seeking, should be devoted to an earnest, prayerful study of the word of truth. The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days.
All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men. It concerns every soul living upon the earth. It opens to view the plan of redemption, bringing us down to the very close of time and revealing the triumphant issue of the contest between righteousness and sin. It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects and be able to give an answer to Page 489

everyone that asketh them a reason of the hope that is in them.

The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to complete in heaven. We must by faith enter within the veil, "whither the forerunner is for us entered." Hebrews 6:20. There the light from the cross of Calvary is reflected. There we may gain a clearer insight into the mysteries of redemption. The salvation of man is accomplished at an infinite expense to heaven; the sacrifice made is equal to the broadest demands of the broken law of God. Jesus has opened the way to the Father's throne, and through His mediation the sincere desire of all who come to Him in faith may be presented before God.
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them.
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the Page 490

atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3.
When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is Page 491

holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12.

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state--men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. "Watch ye therefore: . . . lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping." Mark 13:35, 36. Perilous is the condition of those who, growing weary of their watch, turn to the attractions of the world. While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments--it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting." Daniel 5:27.

 

[tall73]

Before he gets all bogged down in that, my objections are more focused and less in number.

 

[reddogs]

Before he gets all bogged down in that, my objections are more focused and less in number.

Yes, I told them to just focus on your post then we would go to the study thread as the other issues was a bit much. But let me know in this thread of the status when you have the study thread ready and any thing that may come up so Crimson can keep tabs on where we are at, and when we are ready for everyone to come in and send them a PM with the link...

Currently this includes my friend AMujeres, my other friend JClark, Crimson, myself and you.

 

[reddogs]

Tall has created in the formal debates section the discussion thread we will use and sent me the link to it where he will make his presentation on the issues he has on the Great Controversy chapter 28. He has made the pleliminary openning post and Jack you need to go over his points on this and comment, and James you will act as second to Jack and add your comments. Then Tall will present a summary of the Adventist IJ doctrine, utilizing quotes from EGW, but other quotes from church literature may be used as well. Jack and James, you can then discuss any areas of disagreement on what constitutes the basic teaching before we move on to Tall's objections to EGW’s presentation in chapter 28 of the Great Controversy, and the traditional understanding of the Adventist church on this doctrine.

There is no formal structure on rebuttals, number of posts etc, but I want to begin with a formal opening as outlined above, Jack will then make his presentation and James you can comment as needed. We will then proceed with whatever questions, explanation, documentation, and outline of understanding, etc.. in a freeform style until everyone agrees all the points have been presented. Crimsom will act as moderator of the discussion and can act as judge/arbirtrator as to whether all has proceeded properly and can post her own questions or views as she sees fit. I had planned to have a back and forth discussion on New Years Day at 6:00pm EST but we shall see if everyone can make it.

Once all points have been presented, I will see if we can lock the thread and I will ask all parties if they agree we can post a link to the discussion here in this thread so others can overview it/make their comments.

(James, Jack and Crimson, I will PM the link to the discussion thread and we can begin from that point, as work and other restrictions permit)

 

[mva1985]

Red, where exactly is this going to take place?

 

[reddogs]

Red, where exactly is this going to take place?

It will be in the formal debates section but I will try to post a link to it here at the conclusion so everyone can then view and comment as they prefer. In deference to those who may view it as prosletysing, Tall didnt want to hold the discussion in the D/D section or other Adventist Sub-Forums...

 

[mva1985]

It will be in the formal debates section but I will try to post a link to it here at the conclusion so everyone can then view and comment as they prefer. In deference to those who may view it as prosletysing, Tall didnt want to hold the discussion in the D/D section or other Adventist Sub-Forums...

I was hoping to observe in "real-time". Is that a possibility?

 

[reddogs]

I was hoping to observe in "real-time". Is that a possibility?

Jack and James actually have jobs and work, (not like lazy ole Red.. ), and so a back and forth discussion may not be possible as that would be great to see in "real-time", but we shall see....

 

[mva1985]

Jack and James actually have jobs and work, (not like lazy ole Red.. ), and so a back and forth discussion may not be possible as that would be great to see in "real-time", but we shall see....

You don't look old enough to be retired!! Did you win the lotto!?!?

I'll settle for the link if that's all that will be available.

 

[reddogs]

You don't look old enough to be retired!! Did you win the lotto!?!?

I'll settle for the link if that's all that will be available.

I work in software development some of which has to be done online, so I can be online a bit more than my close friends....but hopefully the link should be posted by the New Years night...

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Red,

I also would like to follow this "discussion." I'm not sure how productive it will be however. Sometime ago, before Tall left the church, I had indicated that I would like to talk to him about this subject but he never responded. Personally I think this topic, and those who disagree with SDA teaching on it, has beome a case of "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." There are also some other aspects from independant research and study which has been published that no one has addressed in any of the previous discussios.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc