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Evolutionary Science is a fairytale

notto

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that not what Notto be saying. he say it NOT evenly distributed and you say it is but even if so then if it spread out even why the probe not run into it?

No. The way you are phrasing your claims is suggesting that matter is evenly distributed. It is not.

When taken across the galaxy it is evenly distributed. When looking just at our solar systems, it is not.

Just because dark matter make up 90% of the universe does not mean that it makes up 90% of the matter in our solar system.

The amount of dark matter in our solar system would be many magnitudes smaller than that of the sun so its impact on the things you are talking about would be negligible compared to the influence of the sun and planets.

You are taking the percentage of dark matter compared to all matter for the universe and trying to apply it to a localized solar system.


That doesn't make any sense and is why your statements don't really apply.
 
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FishFace

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but they say more than 90% of the universe made out of it. That why i ask you how it distributed. How they launch all them rockets and probes out into space without taking into account the effects of dark matter and they still work according to their calculations?

Because gravity drops off with the square of the difference. Jupiter is pretty heavy compared to earth, but we don't even need to look at something that so near if we want to launch a rocket into orbit around the earth. If you want to shoot something into outer space then it might be an idea, but dark matter can only have an effect if, at the solar-system scale, it is anisotropic. If the density of dark matter is roughly the same throughout the immediate vicinity, then the probe will be pulled the same in all directions - net force = 0.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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that not what Notto be saying. he say it NOT evenly distributed and you say it is
On a small scale, it is. On a large scale, it isn't. So, in a way, we're both right. So much for the law of exluded middle ^_^

The rocket is on a very small scale with respect to the galaxy, and so the denisty change over the system considered is neglible.

In any case, the prescence of such massive objects as the Earth, the Sun, and the Moon, preclude any influence of dark matter.

but even if so then if it spread out even why the probe not run into it?
Because dark matter, like many known forms of matter, has little or no interaction with normal matter. It takes great effort to detect even one neutrino, yet trillions of them wizz through the Earth every second. Likewise, it takes great effort to detect when dark matter interacts with normal matter.
 
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TheBear

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Losangeleschristian

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On a small scale, it is. On a large scale, it isn't. So, in a way, we're both right. So much for the law of exluded middle ^_^

The rocket is on a very small scale with respect to the galaxy, and so the denisty change over the system considered is neglible.

In any case, the prescence of such massive objects as the Earth, the Sun, and the Moon, preclude any influence of dark matter.


Because dark matter, like many known forms of matter, has little or no interaction with normal matter. It takes great effort to detect even one neutrino, yet trillions of them wizz through the Earth every second. Likewise, it takes great effort to detect when dark matter interacts with normal matter.

Man neutrino even smaller than an atom! Of course trillions pass thru the earth

I just went to msn at the top of the page and they saying something different than it be made of things nobody know of. They don't know!! that aint science thay just taking a guess.

so if you dont know what it made of you saying with unswerving certainty that an object can just fly thru it?

then it go on to say in a new study saying there may be no such thing as dark matter just like i said there want enough evidence and you took it on blind faith like a scientist aint supposed to do because someone who know more than you laid it down to you.

you dont even try to question it like a scientist. you just fold lillies across your chest and lie down for them going along with the program. In fact another article say that scientist just BELIEVE the mass to be there without measuring it or detecting it.

thats faith. If you can have faith in something you cant see or detect that the same as what I believe except we dont call that science and you shouldnt call it science and then teach it like it is. that just your belief, not science. But you still calling it science. Playing by your rules you cant be teaching your beliefs without proof.

Now they aint saying for sure it dont exist but they saying there enough uncertainty to question it and that what you didnt do.

They just said dark matter was invented to explain galaxy rotation but that the NATURE of it is uknown. but you just describe how it act like you know what it made of.

But beside that to make a long story short the article go on to say that the motion of stars in galxies is REALIZED in general relativity equations without the need to invoke massive dark matter that nobody can explain by current physics

And it even say in a scientific american article that this dark matter has eluded EVERY EFFORT BY ASTRONERMERS AND PHYSICISTS TO bring it out of the shadows. Then it say a handful of us (that be the brave ones) suspect that it might not really exist and others are seriously beginning to doubt this possibily exists.

that them talking not me. I dont talk like that. but that what I been saying from the start. as soon as that young man throw dark matter all up in my face I became sceptical and looked into it then I look at an old article mentioning it where it got it start and I got more skeptical thinking this man be blowing smoke in my face and dont really know what he talking about.
 
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necroforest

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In fact another article say that scientist just BELIEVE the mass to be there without measuring it or detecting it.

Although I can't say for certain, since I haven't seen said article, "believe" probably means that it's predicted by well-established theory.

Also, have you considered getting your science from something a bit more... scientific than MSN?
 
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Losangeleschristian

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Exchanging ideas......discussing......debating......that kind of stuff. :)

What are you doing here?


All are invited, and are all equals here.

I'm a christian on a christian forum. where i supposed to go? I came here because i wanted to know more about the subject from other christians because Im interested and not very educated.

right you are. all are equal. you like the idea of equality but you dont give the same due to our young who like an alternative in the class room. Dont want no possibility of that happening.

they just got to hear the same thing that bore them day in and day out because a few atheists get offended and want to force it on them. The good thing for you people is you protected thats why you get away with it just like criminals having their rights.

They soft in this country. They let all kind of things go wrong because a couple of atheists might get offended. It okay to blaspheme and say the lords name in vain. that perfectly okay with you but dare to talk about HIM the way it supposed to and you have someone gloating that today more than 6000 teachers did not break the law.

Your day be coming. Dont nothing happen without consequences.

and I just found out most everyone i run into here believe in dark matter when the article say nobody know what it made of they dont see it they cant detect it with anything. they just think it be there because of the effects. and in the same way christians believe in intelligent design right down to the way the atom work to the complexity of the life and everything surrounding that support it. So we got even more of a right to point to saying only an intelligence could have brought it all together.
 
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Losangeleschristian

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Although I can't say for certain, since I haven't seen said article, "believe" probably means that it's predicted by well-established theory.

Also, have you considered getting your science from something a bit more... scientific than MSN?

No that not what it say. It mention the word BELIEVE. the exact word. I should know the first thing you were going to resort to is questing my resources. I also went to scientific american just for good measure and it use the word scientific.
 
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FishFace

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And it even say in a scientific american article that this dark matter has eluded EVERY EFFORT BY ASTRONERMERS AND PHYSICISTS TO bring it out of the shadows.

Because it doesn't interact with electromagnetic radiation - i.e. light. It's like trying to find a plastic button with a magnet - what's good for finding a lost needle isn't so good for non-magnetic things.

Then it say a handful of us (that be the brave ones) suspect that it might not really exist and others are seriously beginning to doubt this possibily exists.

Then they probably have some reason for that. But all you've raised is personal incredulity, not arguments against the actual evidence.

that's them talking not me. I don't talk like that.

Speaking of talking... Please try to conjugate. And use the word "is," too. It's hard to understand when you omit bits of language.

but that's what I have been saying from the start. as soon as that young man threw dark matter all up in my face I became sceptical and looked into it, then I looked at an old article mentioning ???it where it got it start??? and I got more skeptical thinking this man is blowing smoke in my face and don't really know what he is talking about.

If you don't know what he's talking about, try to understand (we'll help) - don't just do what you seem to be doing; sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I don't believe you!"
 
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FishFace

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that not what Notto be saying. he say it NOT evenly distributed and you say it is but even if so then if it spread out even why the probe not run into it?

Dark matter is evenly distributed on the scale of the solar system. Does that make sense? On a beach the sand is distributed unevenly into ripples, but if you look at a small part of a ripple, in that part, it looks like there's an even distribution.
Our solar system is like part of a ripple.
 
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FishFace

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right you are. all are equal. you like the idea of equality but you dont give the same due to our young who like an alternative in the class room. Dont want no possibility of that happening.

We're all for equality! Just go the whole hog - we want to teach evolution, christian creationism, hindu creationism, mithraism, the norse legends, the idea that the flying spaghetti monster created the earth - the whole she-bang!
Sounds good?

they just got to hear the same thing that bore them day in and day out because a few atheists get offended and want to force it on them.

Uh, no. They get taught science because scientists did the research, discovered the theory, tested it, found it to be correct, got it published, refined it, and so on. It has nothing to do with atheism - in fact, flood geology was disproved by christians looking for evidence for the flood.

The good thing for you people is you protected thats why you get away with it just like criminals having their rights.

What rights do you think we, or criminals, ought not to have?

They soft in this country. They let all kind of things go wrong because a couple of atheists might get offended. It okay to blaspheme and say the lords name in vain. that perfectly okay with you but dare to talk about HIM the way it supposed to and you have someone gloating that today more than 6000 teachers did not break the law.

Religion is fine - just keep it where it belongs. You would have every right to throw me out of church if I came in and blasphemed. But the school is religiously neutral (by law, in America) so you can't just set up church there.

Your day be coming. Dont nothing happen without consequences.

Yeah, and Allah's going to strike you down for not believing in him.

and I just found out most everyone i run into here believe in dark matter when the article say nobody know what it made of

Go back a few thousand years ago and noone knew what a table was made of, but we still knew the thing existed.

they dont see it they cant detect it with anything.

Of course we can. We can detect its effect on the rotation of galaxies, for example. We don't detect it directly, but we don't detect anything directly - the table, for example, we infer by detecting light that reflects off it. Light doesn't reflect off dark matter, but we can still infer its existence.
You trust your sight to the exclusion of everything, it seems.

they just think it be there because of the effects.

So how do you work out that the table exists? Because you see it, right? But you're not detecting the table, you're detecting photons which have bounced off the table. In fact, you're not even detecting those, you're detecting the electrical signals in your brain which those photons produced. From those signals - those effects - you infer that there is a table there.

and in the same way christians believe in intelligent design right down to the way the atom work to the complexity of the life and everything surrounding that support it. So we got even more of a right to point to saying only an intelligence could have brought it all together.

You have a right to say whatever you feel like, as long as you don't incite people to commit a crime. That doesn't make it correct.
 
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TheBear

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I'm a christian on a christian forum. where i supposed to go?
That wasn't my question. You asked why non-Christians come here. I listed several reasons, then asked you why you were here. This is a discussion board, not your personal pulpit. I'm not here in some restricted capacity as a reverential student of yours. If you got something to say, put it out there. If I disagree, I'll let you know, and tell you why.

I came here because i wanted to know more about the subject from other christians because Im interested and not very educated.
That's perfectly fine with me. I think you will get better results in the Congregation section though.

Your day be coming.
Looking forward to it. :)
 
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TheBear

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and I just found out most everyone i run into here believe in dark matter
"believe in"? :D

they just think it be there because of the effects.
Same with gravity. We just think it's there because of the effects. We haven't really seen gravity.

So we got even more of a right to point to saying only an intelligence could have brought it all together.
You have the same right to express your views, not more. And drop the 'we' business. I am in dialog with an individual, not a group. You represent your views, I represent mine. Let's keep it simple.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Man neutrino even smaller than an atom! Of course trillions pass thru the earth
I was making a point. Neutrinos require extremely sensitive and highly specialised equipment to be detected. We know that there are particles in the universe that simply don't react that much with regular matter. Dark matter, if the theory is correct, is one of these things.

I just went to msn at the top of the page and they saying something different
Well! If someone on MSN says contrary to me, then, by golly by gosh, I must be wrong!

than it be made of things nobody know of.
Which is exactly what I said. It is matter of unknown configuration.

They don't know!! that aint science thay just taking a guess.
Which is science. We take a guess as to why the facts are as they are, and then we go out and test whether this guess is right or not. Of course, we call this guess a 'hypothesis', and, if it passes the test, a 'theory'.

so if you dont know what it made of you saying with unswerving certainty that an object can just fly thru it?
With unswerving certainty? Heavens no. I am a scientist; I don't make such absolute statements unless there is a rigourous proof in my hand. But I do say it with confidence.

then it go on to say in a new study saying there may be no such thing as dark matter just like i said
You pulled that out of your аrse. Cite your source.

there want enough evidence and you took it on blind faith like a scientist aint supposed to do because someone who know more than you laid it down to you.
I do wish you'd stop that. Prejudice is a terrible thing. I get enough of that because of my being gay, and now I have to get it because of my scientific beliefs? Crikey...

you dont even try to question it like a scientist.
Justify this claim.

you just fold lillies across your chest and lie down for them going along with the program.
Justify this claim.

In fact another article say that scientist just BELIEVE the mass to be there without measuring it or detecting it.
Absolute nonsense. We believe it to be there because we've gone out and measured it. Our initial assumption (that visable matter was the only mass out there) turned out to be false. Thus, we concluded that there was this 'dark' matter out there. So, we went out and tested for it. Lo and behold, the hypothesis bore out: the evidence confirmed the existance of dark matter.

thats faith.
No, it isn't. Faith is belief in the irrational, and belief is thinking a statement is true. Since we have evidence for the existance of dark matter, belief in its existance is anything but irrational.

If you can have faith in something you cant see or detect that the same as what I believe except we dont call that science and you shouldnt call it science and then teach it like it is.
Agreed. However, belief in dark matter does not fit this catagory.

that just your belief, not science. But you still calling it science. Playing by your rules you cant be teaching your beliefs without proof.
Actually, that's your rule. You said that anything without proof shouldn't be taught in your schools.

Now they aint saying for sure it dont exist but they saying there enough uncertainty to question it and that what you didnt do.
I'm a scientist. I question everything. Please stop making assumptions about me. You're making yourself look tacky.

They just said dark matter was invented to explain galaxy rotation but that the NATURE of it is uknown. but you just describe how it act like you know what it made of.
Which just goes to show that you didn't read what I said. Just because we don't know what it's made of doesn't mean we don't know how it acts. We know it neither emits nor absorbs EM radiation, and that it has mass, and that it outnumbers 'regular' matter 9:1. But we don't know what it's made of.

But beside that to make a long story short the article go on to say that the motion of stars in galxies is REALIZED in general relativity equations without the need to invoke massive dark matter that nobody can explain by current physics
Nonsense. We are talking about gravitational effects on a literally astronomical scale; you really think that General Relativity (the theory of gravity itself) wasn't used in the models? You really think they used Newtonian mechanics?

And it even say in a scientific american article that this dark matter has eluded EVERY EFFORT BY ASTRONERMERS AND PHYSICISTS TO bring it out of the shadows. Then it say a handful of us (that be the brave ones) suspect that it might not really exist and others are seriously beginning to doubt this possibily exists.
Yet there are countless more physicists who do believe in its existance. But this number game is meaningless: our beliefs are irrelevant as to whether it exists or not.

Also, what article is this? I contend that you are pulling these 'facts' out of your аrse.

that them talking not me. I dont talk like that.
You have given no names. You have given no excerpts. You have given no dates, no sources, no nothing. But no, they don't talk like that: I daresay they use correct grammar and syntax ('that them talking not me', indeed).

but that what I been saying from the start. as soon as that young man throw dark matter all up in my face I became sceptical and looked into it then I look at an old article mentioning it where it got it start and I got more skeptical thinking this man be blowing smoke in my face and dont really know what he talking about.
You went to no article. I posted several links with evidence for the existance of dark matter, and you completely ignored the post. You later talk of these unnamed 'articles', as if this gives you any credence. I contend you are pulling them out of your аrse.
 
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Losangeleschristian

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Because it doesn't interact with electromagnetic radiation - i.e. light. It's like trying to find a plastic button with a magnet - what's good for finding a lost needle isn't so good for non-magnetic things.



Then they probably have some reason for that. But all you've raised is personal incredulity, not arguments against the actual evidence.



Speaking of talking... Please try to conjugate. And use the word "is," too. It's hard to understand when you omit bits of language.



If you don't know what he's talking about, try to understand (we'll help) - don't just do what you seem to be doing; sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I don't believe you!"

I apologize Fish. I will try harder to make myself understood. That man Morcova was putting down my statement about consequences but everything has got consequences. There are consequences to our choices. If you dont get a proper education you stand to pas a price later on. If a girl decide it okay to get pregnent she has gotten herself into something she dont fully understand and will pay for later, and her child too. Thats just the way it is in life. Nobody trying to invoke fear.

If you dont take care of your teeth, your health, you eat too much of the wrong food, you are going to pay for it one way or another. I had to change my diet to something like 75% vegetables because my body had enough of the wrong thing I was putting into it.

I never once tell anyone you are trying to scare me into eating vegetables. I was grateful he told me. I ask my family to please remind if I get off track. I need to be told.

And in the same way the world dont recognize its need for Jesus. We all need him but just dont realize it until trouble come.

Now to Wiccan I say no i did not make that up. It come out of http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9655619/

Go down a little just before the advertisement. I even tell you what keyword I wrote in. I put in "do dark matter exist"

In fact those articles even say to the laymen it seem like nonsense and not really believable. I say it is interesting but you cant even find any close to home and that the problem I got with it. It out there somewhere but not anywhere near here and if it is we cant even detect it. How convenient for you scientists.

You seem to go along with all of this because of a consensus of scientists say so.

And last of all Fish you say you are for equality but are you fighting for it but I know nobody really is fighting for it. Then you take an attitude against creationism and taking shots putting us up there with fables. But like the article on dark matter was saying your ideas are also far fetched. And the idea of evolution is far fetched too.

Why we even need evolution in the schools to be taught? What good is knowing it? You cant do nothing with it and everybody know our school system a wreck anyway compared with other country. Just leave out what you think is the origins of man so everyone can decide for themselves. Nobody need it shoved down their throat.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I apologize Fish. I will try harder to make myself understood. That man Morcova was putting down my statement about consequences but everything has got consequences. There are consequences to our choices. If you dont get a proper education you stand to pas a price later on. If a girl decide it okay to get pregnent she has gotten herself into something she dont fully understand and will pay for later, and her child too. Thats just the way it is in life. Nobody trying to invoke fear.

If you dont take care of your teeth, your health, you eat too much of the wrong food, you are going to pay for it one way or another. I had to change my diet to something like 75% vegetables because my body had enough of the wrong thing I was putting into it.

I never once tell anyone you are trying to scare me into eating vegetables. I was grateful he told me. I ask my family to please remind if I get off track. I need to be told.

And in the same way the world dont recognize its need for Jesus. We all need him but just dont realize it until trouble come.

Now to Wiccan I say no i did not make that up. It come out of http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9655619/

Go down a little just before the advertisement. I even tell you what keyword I wrote in. I put in "do dark matter exist"

In fact those articles even say to the laymen it seem like nonsense and not really believable. I say it is interesting but you cant even find any close to home and that the problem I got with it. It out there somewhere but not anywhere near here and if it is we cant even detect it. How convenient for you scientists.

You seem to go along with all of this because of a consensus of scientists say so.

And last of all Fish you say you are for equality but are you fighting for it but I know nobody really is fighting for it. Then you take an attitude against creationism and taking shots putting us up there with fables. But like the article on dark matter was saying your ideas are also far fetched. And the idea of evolution is far fetched too.

Why we even need evolution in the schools to be taught? What good is knowing it? You cant do nothing with it and everybody know our school system a wreck anyway compared with other country. Just leave out what you think is the origins of man so everyone can decide for themselves. Nobody need it shoved down their throat.
However the effects of becoming pregnant, or not taking care of your teeth, are well documented, based on empirical evidence and observation.

The effects of disagreeing with you about how God did what are not documented and no evidence or observation is available
 
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Losangeleschristian

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Religion is fine - just keep it where it belongs. You would have every right to throw me out of church if I came in and blasphemed. But the school is religiously neutral (by law, in America) so you can't just set up church there.

Now wait a minute. I look up wikipedia about that too because i already dont trust you and I found they had this to say about it:

Separation of church and state is a political and legal idea often incorrectly identified with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof… The phrase building a wall of separation between church and state was written by Thomas Jefferson in a January 1, 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.


So that was added later on and not really in the constitution. it was just a letter written to the association. but it not part of the constitution. it just be saying that no religion is going to get preference over another. I can go along with it because we cant persecute one and favor another.

But they say nothing about leaving prayer out of school. Anybody who want should be allowed to say a prayer in school.
 
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