Evolutionary Science is a fairytale

[MemeBuster]

Tell me, which one do you think sounds more like a fairytale: Option 1 or Option 2?

I think the one with a talking animal more sounds like a fairytale!


MB.

 

[Losangeleschristian]

Ever hear parrots talk? It's all about capability. But you shouldn't have a problem believing things you never seen. You do it all the time. What I don't understand is why anyone here would that I'm not really looking at an picture of atoms that go straight into a text.

This is the day that the Lord hath made!!

 

[MemeBuster]

What I don't understand is why anyone here would that I'm not really looking at an picture of atoms that go straight into a text.

This is the day that the Lord hath made!!

What did you call me?!


MB.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I looked into the subject of dark matter last night someone here saying its perfectly okay to call it a science when it's not.

If you're referring to me, my point was that physics contains unknowns analogous to evolution's 'missing links'.

I don't see any direct evidence of dark matter either so in reality its just an idea they're putting out there.

The term 'dark matter' is used in the same way cartographers used the term 'terra incognita'. We haven't seen it, but we have good reason to think it's there.

Compare this to the mysterious 'Planet X' of the 1990's: Uranus' orbit was affected by some unknown mass, and the previous discoveries of Neptune and Pluto didn't account entirely for the anomaly. The recent discovery of the tenth 'planet' (or whatever the official term is) sorted this out.
We knew the planet was there because we could see its effects.

Or, compare this to black holes: we can't see black holes themselves, since they absorb all EM radiation. We can, however, infer their existance by looking for their effects.

That said, we do have evidence for the existance of dark matter.

Instead of being honest and telling everyone they don't understand what's holding the clusters of galaxies from flying apart and spreading out, they concoct a story of "well, more than 90% of the mass needed to hold them together can't be accounted for so there must be some unseen dark matter".

That was the best explanation of the time. Scientists were brazen about the fact that the dark matter hypothesis was tenuous at best.

However, evidence has been accumulating for the existance of dark matter. It is a theory, and the best one we have for explaining the observed effects.

You call that science? They just be making it up so they could have something to put into a book. No evidence, just a proposal.

It's called a hypothesis. They either get refuted by contradictory evidence, replaced by a better hypothesis, or promoted to 'theory' if evidence is found to support it. In the case of the dark matter hypothesis, the latter occured.

You see? Everytime I look into one of your ideas a little closer it just brings up more questions.

Not really. You are parroting misconceptions and layman conclusions. I suggest you take the time to look up your criticisms, because I assure you that you are not the first to do so, nor am I the first to refute them.

I could probably shoot holes in your ideas all day for kicks if I really wanted to look into it and had the time

Somehow I doubt that.

but I don't have all the time on my hands that a PHD theoretical physicist has.

When did I say I had a Ph.D? I don't do philosophy. If anything, I'm aiming for a MSci (or BPhys).
In any case, it's Christmas. There's not much to do.

Still, even I have more nerve to question what's taught and I'm no scientist. like my math teacher once told the class "never let someone tell you something is fact without proving it". That stuck out in my mind at an early age and has stayed with me since. So many people out there trying to decieve.

Indeed. So tell me, if you have such the scepticle frame of mind common to scientists, why are you a Christian? There is, after all, no more evidence for it than there is for Hinduism, or Sikhism, or any other religion.

But everytime some proposal comes up you all don't bother to question it and accept it as fact.

Not at all. The notion of 'dark matter' initially seemed to me to be a cop out, so I did a search for the evidence. Much to my surprise, there was evidence for it.

You're really just taking it on faith because another person told you.

The hypocracy in this sentence is overwhelming.

Wiccan, I didn't send no ultimatum. I just asked you to prove we evolved from slime and link in all the forms throughout the billions of years. But you got all bent out of shape and sent me to google.

I did two things: I first told you that no such proof exists, and I second explained why this lack of proof is a pointless fact.

I did, however, point you to the evidence. I have neither the time nor the inclination to write an essay for you, since it has been done countless times on the web. Go to Google or Wikipedia. It's all there, just a-waiting.

That said, I recently wrote something for someone else on this thread, so I'll slap that in for your reading:

"Once we have established that evolution occurs in the most general case, we can start to look at specific cases: speciation over time, speciation over genetic barriers, and the long-term consequences thereof.

i) given a single species of sexual reproducers, there will be only one species at any given time. However, the species at one time will not be the same species at some other distant time (either in the future or the past): the mutations accumulated in the population at one time cause the genome to be sufficiently different from the genome at some distant time, and hence the gametes of one time's population will not recognise the gametes of the other.

ii) same as (i), but this time introduce a barrier between the population, truncating them into two distinct, non-interbreedable groups. Over time, the set of mutations that appear in and proliferate through one group will not the same as that that in/through the other group. Over time, the two groups will become sufficiently different in genome that the gametes in one will not recognise the gametes in the other. I.e., speciation has occured.

iii) Repeat (ii) many times, and you will have a plethora of species all ultimately descended from one original species. In this way, evolution directly leads to common ancestry.

Of course, while we can flip the model around (if one species today can become many species in the future, then the many species today may have come from one species in the past), this is only a hypothesis as to the origin of the diveristy of modern life. We still have to subject it to the rigourous testing that any other hypothesis goes through."

This is my way of explaining how many species can come from one.
Evidences
Observed instance of speciation.
Evidence for common descent (talkorigins).
Evidence for common descent (wiki).

The Wiki's contents can be used as a list of evidences for common descent:

• 1 Evidence from paleontology
  • 1.1 Fossil records
    • 1.1.1 Extent of the Fossil Record
  • 1.2 Evolution of the horse
  • 1.3 Limitations
• 2 Evidence from comparative anatomy
  • 2.1 Homologous structures and divergent (adaptive) evolution
    • 2.1.1 Pentadactyl limb
    • 2.1.2 Insect mouthparts
    • 2.1.3 Other Arthropod Appendages
  • 2.2 Analogous structures and convergent evolution
  • 2.3 Vestigial structures
• 3 Evidence from geographical distribution
  • 3.1 Continental distribution
  • 3.2 Explanation
  • 3.3 Evidence for migration and isolation
  • 3.4 Continental drift
  • 3.5 Oceanic island distribution
• 4 Evidence from comparative physiology and biochemistry
  • 4.1 Universal biochemical organisation
  • 4.2 Molecular variance patterns
  • 4.3 Out of Africa hypothesis of human evolution
• 5 Evidence from antibiotic and pesticide resistance
• 6 Evidence from studies of complex iteration
• 7 Evidence from speciation
  • 7.1 Hawthorn fly

I said I wanted YOU to do it. Don't send me out to the resources and say you anwser the questions. You just trying to shut me up and get rid of me but you don't know how to answer in your own words.

If I had the inclination to write you an essay, I would do so. But I don't, so I referred you to the numerous essays and dissertations already written.

You believe in science but I don't know when you come out with crazy statements like "the only thing I have to believe in is my mind".

Prove to me something other than my mind exists, and you'll have a point.
My point, as it happens, was that the absence of proof is only an issue in mathematics. Technically, I don't know that I'm not just a brain in a jar, but I assume that I'm not.

I am a scientist. I believe what the evidence suggests. I believe whichever explanation's the most scientifically valid. Dark matter and common descent are both the most scientifically valid explanations for the phenomena they (successfully)attempt to explain.

I bet you thought you had thrown me off with "prove to me this is really buffalo bill". that's plain off the wall that has nothing to do with anything except your religion.

You said you could prove the past happened just by having a photograph of it. I presented a photograph of the past, yet I'm still sitting here waiting for your proof.
Could it be that you were bluffing? I do hope not.

You know you never going to get anywhere with anyone using that crazy talk. Police and detectives using photographs as evidence all the time.

But not as proof. Evidence and proof are two different things.

You're right I don't understand alot but that's why we need even more evidence, especially physical evidence which is what counts.

... what other evidence is there?

That's all we asking for.

And that's what you've been getting. This is a text-based internet forum. I cannot physically hand you the fossil and guide you through the dating process. I cannot sit with you as you watch 3.5 billion years of evolution. The best I can give you is text, pictures, and videos, all of which have been presented elsewhere on the internet. Thus, I like you to them.

And when someone starts getting anal over a picture saying "I guarantee you this is not a photo"

I most certainly did not say that. You have, as ever, completely misunderstood my point. I needn't remind you that it is a rule infraction to fabricate quotes.

 

[MoonLancer]

If you don't believe it then what are you doing spending so much time on a Christian forum??

nice way to avoid the question eh? might be a red herring.

 

[Losangeleschristian]

I'll get to Wiccan later but first you Lancer. What are you doing on a Christian forum? If you don't like our views you don't have to be here. Nobody twisting your arm. In fact when whenever we want to teach something out of the bible you step into our territory just like you're doing now acting all concerned that we be decieving people.

That's sometimes true. We guilty of that at times but your kind don't want to see a cross up on government property even though it don't be hurting no one. You got no good reason except it be on government property.

You know full well you that in foreign country especially Arab country what they do to people like you. I guarantee you keep your mouth closed over there if you value your life and I know you do.

Your kind act like you don't because you know you safe now. You say you don't fear hell. Well if that be true go on and light yourself up right now.

Atheists trying to drive out God. You should be fearing him. Even I don't fear him enough. I be the first to admit it but he working on me still as I submit. And it say even the demons believe with trembling because they come from where he been. I never have that kind of experience but I sure wish that I do.

But others no fear at all. like that one man I forget his name but was a Doctor and Lawyer and all he committed to is trying to drive God out of this country suing over any little thing.

Just haters of God, nothing more but the bible talk about you don't know better. This be going on since back in the day of the prophets, and especially Christ, John, and Paul. You be getting your due one day and by that time it be too late you wont be able to back out of it so I telling now.

To answer your question if the Lord throw you a lifeline to save you and you don't take then what's your excuse? Sure you're on your way to destruction. We all are way there but Jesus take the punishment for you-whosoever hangeth on a tree is cursed.

man, all you have to do is believe in your heart and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord. We're all going to be doing it anyways once we come before HiS presence. Man I guarantee you don't suspect what kind of person he is because if you it be too much for you and you couldn't look Him in the face. That how great HIS honor is but most people don't know until they get saved and seek HIS face.

When the spirit revealed to me all I be doing is looking down. he be more than a Mother to me and I don't deserve him.

You don't have to do nothing rigorous, just believe and turn to Him. Once that happens you get the Holy Spirit. Then you read your bible and with the Holy spirit you get the new nature. You still got some of your old nature-that come from Adam but you also have the new nature from Jesus our Lord whose name is above every other name in all existance. The holy spirit your evidence that you're going to heaven and then you just stay close to the Lord and he direct you. So you got nothing to worry about.

But if you still not serious then you go on disregarding HIM.

 

[PsychMJC]

First and foremost, I was under the impression that people with differing views were welcome here..

Second, many people fully accept the theory of evolution while maintaining their belief in an afterlife/deity.. you may not call them "Christians", but somehow I don't think you are qualified to make that decision.

 

[DeathMagus]

I'll get to Wiccan later but first you Lancer. What are you doing on a Christian forum? If you don't like our views you don't have to be here. Nobody twisting your arm. In fact when whenever we want to teach something out of the bible you step into our territory just like you're doing now acting all concerned that we be decieving people.

There are multiple threads in the debate forums asking this very question. If you don't like them, or want an answer from a specific person, either start a new thread or PM them. Don't dodge specific questions in this thread by changing the topic.

That's sometimes true. We guilty of that at times but your kind don't want to see a cross up on government property even though it don't be hurting no one. You got no good reason except it be on government property.

Evidently, the constitutionality of the issue does not concern you.

Your kind act like you don't because you know you safe now. You say you don't fear hell. Well if that be true go on and light yourself up right now.

Are you saying we should kill ourselves because we don't fear hell?

Atheists trying to drive out God. You should be fearing him. Even I don't fear him enough. I be the first to admit it but he working on me still as I submit. And it say even the demons believe with trembling because they come from where he been. I never have that kind of experience but I sure wish that I do.

Just trying to uphold the constitution, mate. Personally, I don't care if they have mangers on public property, but only if they have symbols representing every other religion other than Christianity. It's simpler and cheaper to simply say that displays of a religious nature belong on private property. It's also an issue of money. I don't want my tax dollars paying for a manger at city hall. If somebody donated it, I wouldn't care, though its constitutionality would still be in question.

But others no fear at all. like that one man I forget his name but was a Doctor and Lawyer and all he committed to is trying to drive God out of this country suing over any little thing.

A doctor/lawyer? That narrows it down, certainly...

Just haters of God, nothing more but the bible talk about you don't know better. This be going on since back in the day of the prophets, and especially Christ, John, and Paul. You be getting your due one day and by that time it be too late you wont be able to back out of it so I telling now.

Don't be silly. You can't hate what you don't believe in. That said, I'd thank you for the warning, was it not constantly being given by you and other Christians like you.

To answer your question if the Lord throw you a lifeline to save you and you don't take then what's your excuse? Sure you're on your way to destruction. We all are way there but Jesus take the punishment for you-whosoever hangeth on a tree is cursed.

You're equivocating. You pretend it's as obvious as when a rope is lowered while you're dangling from a thread above a 3000 ft. drop.

man, all you have to do is believe in your heart and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord. We're all going to be doing it anyways once we come before HiS presence. Man I guarantee you don't suspect what kind of person he is because if you it be too much for you and you couldn't look Him in the face. That how great HIS honor is but most people don't know until they get saved and seek HIS face.

For most of us atheists, I believe that such a move would be a complete violation of our personal mental integrity. That's not a simple thing to give up.

You don't have to do nothing rigorous, just believe and turn to Him. Once that happens you get the Holy Spirit. Then you read your bible and with the Holy spirit you get the new nature. You still got some of your old nature-that come from Adam but you also have the new nature from Jesus our Lord whose name is above every other name in all existance. The holy spirit your evidence that you're going to heaven and then you just stay close to the Lord and he direct you. So you got nothing to worry about.

See above - the nature of the sacrifice is much larger than you make it seem for me.

But if you still not serious then you go on disregarding HIM.

It's the only honest route I can take.

 

[Paulos23]

You ask a good question Losangeleschristian, I think I will answer it. Why am I here?

This is an open forum, anyone is welcome to come in. I didn't see a Christians only sign when I joined. I came in to debate C&E with people that had a better handle on the Creationist side of things. Funny thing was the ones that did soon where supporting Evolution in a few months, the evidence brought forth was that convincing. The ones that where not so reasonable where hard core believers, and nothing was going to change their beliefs. Not that I have a problem with that, but when they call it science when it is clearly belief...well I did go on a tear about that a few times.

But I found something else here, and that is the door to my disbelief. I found the extreme of Christianity and that helped me turn away for good. So I do come back and post to challenge that lack of belief and so far it is stayed strong due to people like you.

The other reason I come here (and I hope this is the reason many atheists come here) is because I don't debate this in the rest of my life. I don't lie about it, but I find no need to talk to anyone about their beliefs unless they come forth with it first. That makes life a lot more peaceful for me. Here, it is encouraged to debate. But I keep the debate here in the debate area so that only Christans that want to debate can.

If you don't want to debate us, stay out of discussion and debate. If you don't want to debate C&E on scientific grounds then stay out of C&E.

 

[Losangeleschristian]

Death Magus, you don't have a problem with personal mental integrity for believing in and confessing Jesus. Your real problem is that you afraid of what other people will think of you. It comes down that you are more concerned with what man thinks than what God thinks. The Bible speaks of your kind also "whosoever denies me before man I will also deny before the Father"

And your concern over how the gov't spends its money I ask you-- do you put as much effort into protesting all the other waste too? Waste goes on in govt., that's common. But you're poking at minscule amounts when much larger sums are wasted. What are you going to do about that?? You thinking about suing a guy like Bush for putting us in Iraq?? What you going to do about it? You know you can't do nothing about Bush. He just got too much power.

Shame on you picking at a manger.

You know how to pick your fights. that's why I'm saying this sort of persecution don't go on in no Arab countries protesting Isalm. No one would dare go and take it to them.

And stop pretending you want equality. If you concerned about equality, fight to have intelligent design that way you have both sides of the story in the classrom and students will get to pick what they want to believe instead of having one view shoved at them all the time.

Now the other atheist i was talking about I can't remember his name but yes he is both a doctor and a lawyer. He is very bright but misguided and hardcore antichrist even though his wife was a Christian. He was putting down the Christian faith talking about how it was doing damage to our young. But his own girl is a christian and she not protesting nothing.

And last you said I was "pretending its as obvious as if you were dangling from a thread over a long 3000 foot".

You still in trouble because the bible says cursed is the man who breaks any commandments of the law. We all broke them laws. But then "cursed is the man who hangs on a tree" shows that our Lord took the curse upon HIM.

He was the final sacrifice ending all the slaughter of animals you find in the old testament.

So its comparable. The Lord tell us he having none of us unless we accept that sacrifice. Accepting by faith is the way to HIM. Otherwise when your time run out, and we all know it going to run out sometime, then you got no choice but to go where belong and aint noway you going to be able to protest like you would they be violating the constitution.

No, you just going out to a place where there is no GOD. And I aint talking the earth because at least here he can be reached. Here you still got hope. don't make the mistake of throwing it away.

It be true I cant see Him any more than you can but I can see reminders of what he done, the animals, trees, birs singing. All life was made by HIM and even his planet and stars have beauty. The beauty of his creation reflects a shadow of the nature of God himself.

But you don't accept that sacrifice of his son Jesus there nothing more he can do. You can't even say you werent told looking back on it. I told you in plain english, one syllable words so there be nothing confusing to anyone.

Won't be able to point no fingers when you be scoffing his son died-- big deal. You can't say God himself did nothing to prevent the fate of sinners. Sin came into the world and God gave his son to save but you got to take that lifeline he offer.

No one will accuse him on judgement day that his son wasn't enough. That biggest sacrifice you can make. I don't know anyone who wouldn't give up their money to spare their life. They do that right away. Life more important than even money. So let's not act like ingrates toward HIM and his son.

Jesus said he was coming down to die before it happened and no one even knew what he was talking about. It went over their heads until after he come back again. Then he show them.

As it says in the new testament "He died, rose again and on the third day and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in power"

 

[necroforest]

Death Magus, you don't have a problem with personal mental integrity for believing in and confessing Jesus. Your real problem is that you afraid of what other people will think of you. It comes down that you are more concerned with what man thinks than what God thinks. The Bible speaks of your kind also "whosoever denies me before man I will also deny before the Father"

I'm awfully impressed that you know exactly why he thinks that way. Have you thought about going into clinical psychology? Generally, if you don't think God exists, you don't really care what 'he' thinks about you, now do you?

 

[FishFace]

I looked into the subject of dark matter last night someone here saying its perfectly okay to call it a science when it's not. I don't see any direct evidence of dark matter either so in reality its just an idea they're putting out there. That's just not good enough if it's going to be taught in our schools and is dishonest.

Argument from ignorance, eh? From the wikipedia article:

The observed phenomena consistent with dark matter observations include the rotational speeds of galaxies, orbital velocities of galaxies in clusters, gravitational lensing of background objects by galaxy clusters such as the Bullet cluster, and the temperature distribution of hot gas in galaxies and clusters of galaxies. Dark matter also plays a central role in structure formation and galaxy evolution, and has measurable effects on the anisotropy of the cosmic microwave background. All these lines of evidence suggest that galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and the universe as a whole contain far more matter than that which interacts with electromagnetic radiation: the remainder is called the "dark matter component".

Basically the evidence: There is more matter than we can see. We call the matter we can't see dark matter.

Instead of being honest and telling everyone they don't understand what's holding the clusters of galaxies from flying apart and spreading out,

But we do - it's extra mass. Everything is exactly consistent with it being extra mass. It's just we can't see the mass with electromagnetic radiation.

Still, even I have more nerve to question what's taught and I'm no scientist. like my math teacher once told the class "never let someone tell you something is fact without proving it". That stuck out in my mind at an early age and has stayed with me since. So many people out there trying to decieve.

I guess it's not a fact that you exist, since you can't prove it.

Wiccan, I didn't send no ultimatum. I just asked you to prove we evolved from slime and link in all the forms throughout the billions of years. But you got all bent out of shape and sent me to google.

Well, we'll prove you evolved from slime (or, better, from a common ancestor with apes. Let's deal with slime later) just as soon as you prove that you exist. Or Ohm's law. Or anything scientific really.

You're right I don't understand alot but that's why we need even more evidence, especially physical evidence which is what counts. That's all we asking for. And when someone starts getting anal over a picture saying "I guarantee you this is not a photo" then that same person should be as meticulous about what they call evidence if it's to be accepted in out schools.

Photo: light. The image was created with a tunneling electron microscope, I believe - electricity is not light. (Although the two are related)

 

[Losangeleschristian]

Fact is the don't know so they come up with matter that they presume is ther but they cant see. You see, I saw an early account of the proposal of dark matter. that all it is is a proposal. Now they talk about it like it be fact until they got better explanation. They phase it in like they do all their proposal until it become accepted like it is a fact.

Fishface you all must be from the same church telling me I cant prove I exist. I'm dissapointed in you. I already told you that dont throw me off none. If I dont exist they why you responding to what I said?

We are past the point of discussion. For it say in second Corinthians chapter six verse: "what fellowship hath righteousness with darkness? What communion hath light with darkness? And what accord hath Christ with Belal? What part hat he that believeth with an unbeliever? And what agreement hat hath the temple of God with idols? Touch not the unclean thing and I will recieve you"

Im going on and fellowship with my own kind. When you become serious about what really matters then we talk otherwise do as you wish.

 

[necroforest]

The point (which you ignore) is that you can't *prove* anything about the physical world; Proof is limited to liquor and mathematics.

Even in mathematics, proof is based on axioms that are (*gasp*) assumed to be true without proof.

 

[igotbegot]

"...every creature on earth is said to have evolved from a common ancestor...Of course none of these common ancestors have been found -- or will ever be found -- but we're just supposed to take their word for it..."

How is that any different than the Adam and Eve story? According to the bible, all humans, including black, asian, white, indian, native american, etc have a common ancestor. So, by your logic that can not possibly be true because that common ancestor(s) has never been found.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

*subscribe*

 

[quatona]

Evolutionary Science is a fairytale

You seem to be confused. Fairytales are those stories in which fairies and other non-physical beings play a major part. Hence the name.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yo, Losangeleschristian, I'm still waiting for your reply to my post! Just in case you'd forgot

 

[necroforest]

Yo, Losangeleschristian, I'm still waiting for your reply to my post! Just in case you'd forgot

He's gone on to "fellowship with his own kind".

 

[DeathMagus]

Death Magus, you don't have a problem with personal mental integrity for believing in and confessing Jesus.

I do if I have no reason to believe it, but decide to anyway.

Your real problem is that you afraid of what other people will think of you.

Lies. The majority of the US is Christian. All of my family is Catholic, with the exception of my brother. Other people expect me to be Christian, including you.

It comes down that you are more concerned with what man thinks than what God thinks. The Bible speaks of your kind also "whosoever denies me before man I will also deny before the Father"

My concern is with what I think.

And your concern over how the gov't spends its money I ask you-- do you put as much effort into protesting all the other waste too?

Yep. If you'd read my other posts in D&D, you'd see that I protest the massively over-budgeted military, broken welfare systems, and pork spending.

Waste goes on in govt., that's common. But you're poking at minscule amounts when much larger sums are wasted. What are you going to do about that?? You thinking about suing a guy like Bush for putting us in Iraq?? What you going to do about it? You know you can't do nothing about Bush. He just got too much power.

So which is it? First you belittle me for focusing on the small issues, and then point out that I "can't do nothing" about the larger issues? What, exactly, is your point?

Shame on you picking at a manger.

Yes...I might make an inanimate object feel bad. I'm such a horrible person...

You know how to pick your fights. that's why I'm saying this sort of persecution don't go on in no Arab countries protesting Isalm. No one would dare go and take it to them.

I most certainly would, if if the danger of physical, deadly retaliation wasn't a very real one.

And stop pretending you want equality. If you concerned about equality, fight to have intelligent design that way you have both sides of the story in the classrom and students will get to pick what they want to believe instead of having one view shoved at them all the time.

I'm all for intelligent design in the classroom. The question of which classroom, however, is a bit more sticky. Since it has no scientific basis, such as a theory defining it, it obviously can't go in science class. A "religions of the world" class, however, would work nicely for it.

Now the other atheist i was talking about I can't remember his name but yes he is both a doctor and a lawyer. He is very bright but misguided and hardcore antichrist even though his wife was a Christian. He was putting down the Christian faith talking about how it was doing damage to our young. But his own girl is a christian and she not protesting nothing.

Why would a Christian protest Christianity? You're making no sense.

And last you said I was "pretending its as obvious as if you were dangling from a thread over a long 3000 foot".

You still in trouble because the bible says cursed is the man who breaks any commandments of the law. We all broke them laws. But then "cursed is the man who hangs on a tree" shows that our Lord took the curse upon HIM.

Right. And Islam says I'll be punished if I don't worship Allah. Why are you right? They've got prophets and holy books too.

So its comparable. The Lord tell us he having none of us unless we accept that sacrifice. Accepting by faith is the way to HIM. Otherwise when your time run out, and we all know it going to run out sometime, then you got no choice but to go where belong and aint noway you going to be able to protest like you would they be violating the constitution.

Well, if God is really such a jerk that he punishes intellectual honesty, then that's his prerogative.

No, you just going out to a place where there is no GOD. And I aint talking the earth because at least here he can be reached. Here you still got hope. don't make the mistake of throwing it away.

If he's like you say he is, why should I want to be with him? You make him sound like one of those clique-y high school brats I never hung out with anyway.

It be true I cant see Him any more than you can but I can see reminders of what he done, the animals, trees, birs singing. All life was made by HIM and even his planet and stars have beauty. The beauty of his creation reflects a shadow of the nature of God himself.

Only if you already believe he exists.

But you don't accept that sacrifice of his son Jesus there nothing more he can do. You can't even say you werent told looking back on it. I told you in plain english, one syllable words so there be nothing confusing to anyone.

Right. I can't say I wasn't told. But then again, do you believe everything you hear? If you do, could I sign you up for Amway?

Won't be able to point no fingers when you be scoffing his son died-- big deal. You can't say God himself did nothing to prevent the fate of sinners. Sin came into the world and God gave his son to save but you got to take that lifeline he offer.

Nope, but I can say that what he did do was woefully lacking.

No one will accuse him on judgement day that his son wasn't enough. That biggest sacrifice you can make. I don't know anyone who wouldn't give up their money to spare their life. They do that right away. Life more important than even money. So let's not act like ingrates toward HIM and his son.

This is something I've never understood. If he rose again after three days, how much of a sacrifice was his death, really?

Jesus said he was coming down to die before it happened and no one even knew what he was talking about. It went over their heads until after he come back again. Then he show them.

As it says in the new testament "He died, rose again and on the third day and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in power"

So the Bible claims.