Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[themuzicman]

This assumes, of course, that 'Called', here, refers to being drawn so that one may be enabled.

Muz

 

[holdon]

seems like a sidestep , anyway the context is persevering till the end , indicating salvation in total.

Anyway, the context it about the circumstances under which the disciples were to proclaim the Gospel. It is not about persevering unto eternal life. Context is clear.

 

[Ormly]

This assumes, of course, that 'Called', here, refers to being drawn so that one may be enabled.

Muz

 

[holdon]

Paul saw the fruit and warned them against losing it.

Not only that, Paul's writings were only ever written to Christians. C'mon, Holden. . . . coffee's on.

There is simply nothing in the passage that says these people had eternal life. The writer uses the example to stir up the real Christians. It looked like they were rather weak in the faith. If the real Christians behave as those that are christians only in name, then that would be no good. They at least should produce some good fruit.....

 

[Ormly]

There is simply nothing in the passage that says these people had eternal life. The writer uses the example to stir up the real Christians. It looked like they were rather weak in the faith. If the real Christians behave as those that are christians only in name, then that would be no good. They at least should produce some good fruit.....

Sorry, dude, but you are screaming "denial".

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chapter 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These Christians are warned against backsliding[/FONT]

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:1-8 (KJV)

Can I suggest you throw away your Schofield?

 

[themuzicman]

People treat these aorists verbs as past tense, when the Greek only makes them singular events. I doubt many would say that we are now glorified, and yet that is in the same tense as the rest of the verbs in 29-30.

And there is no sense in which these are given in Chronological order, either. Paul is just saying that these things are true of those who are saved.

And I think in verse 30, there's a bit of ellipsis going on. In each case, Paul uses a relative pronoun to refer to the previous group, which the NASB translates "these."

Thus, these whom are predestined are called, those ones who are called (and predestined) are justified, and those ones are justified (and called and predestined) are glorified. So, Paul isn't saying referring to ALL who were justified or ALL who were called, but those who are now predestined and foreknown are also called, justified and glorified.

So, once we look at the construction and intent of the passage, this becomes clearer.

Muz

 

[holdon]

Sorry, dude, but you are screaming "denial".

Good! Because that is exactly what I wanted you to hear.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chapter 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These Christians are warned against backsliding[/FONT]

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:1-8 (KJV)

Can I suggest you throw away your Schofield?

Sorry, I don't have a Scofield. No matter how many blessings one has tasted, experienced, heard, exposed to, taught, even follow the teachings, etc.., if one did not receive the Good Seed one is still lost in trespasses and sins.
"Enlightened, Tasted, Partake of the Holy Spirit, Tasting the Good Word and Miracles", (all blessings upon the soil) don't mean anything if the Good Seed doesn't grow there.

 

[Ormly]

Good! Because that is exactly what I wanted you to hear.

Sorry, I don't have a Scofield. No matter how many blessings one has tasted, experienced, heard, exposed to, taught, even follow the teachings, etc.., if one did not receive the Good Seed one is still lost in trespasses and sins.
"Enlightened, Tasted, Partake of the Holy Spirit, Tasting the Good Word and Miracles", (all blessings upon the soil) don't mean anything if the Good Seed doesn't grow there.

No man, you wrong. No one can partake unless he belongs. The parable of the sower has nothing to do with this. You have mis-applied it to the one who never comes to salvation in Christ. Heb.6 is definitly referring to one who has, and more in Him has he realized before turning away from him. You might even call that one an apostate. I am sure you have heard the word. Now you where it it fits.

 

[holdon]

No man, you wrong. No one can partake unless he belongs. The parable of the sower has nothing to do with this. You have mis-applied it to the one who never comes to salvation in Christ. Heb.6 is definitly referring to one who has, and more in Him has he realized before turning away from him. You might even call that one an apostate. I am sure you have heard the word. Now you where it it fits.

I think I have correctly applied the passage. The contextual example of a soil being conditioned for a good crop, but that doesn't, means only that it never received the Good Seed.

 

[Ormly]

I think I have correctly applied the passage. The contextual example of a soil being conditioned for a good crop, but that doesn't, means only that it never received the Good Seed.

Soil, Schmoil. It doesn't apply to Heb.6

 

[cygnusx1]

Originally Posted by Ormly
Sorry, dude, but you are screaming "denial".

Good! Because that is exactly what I wanted you to hear.

LOL!!!!

 

[cygnusx1]

Anyway, the context it about the circumstances under which the disciples were to proclaim the Gospel. It is not about persevering unto eternal life. Context is clear.

now you have shifted the meaning to persevering ...........away from salvation.

 

[Ormly]

now you have shifted the meaning to persevering ...........away from salvation.

Well, he is only doing what he sees you doing. . . . shifting.

 

[cygnusx1]

Well, he is only doing what he sees you doing. . . . shifting.

i am focused.

 

[Ormly]

Right. So is my cross-eye cat

 

[holdon]

now you have shifted the meaning to persevering ...........away from salvation.

I haven't shifted anything. It is just as it is.

 

[cygnusx1]

I haven't shifted anything. It is just as it is.

go back a few posts ;

he who perseveres to the end shall be saved , to which you replied salvation can mean different things ...

"Saved doesn't always mean the saving of the soul. Simple isn't it? Hint: see Mt 10:28." holdon



... later you switched from this defense , to perseverance ....


"Anyway, the context it about the circumstances under which the disciples were to proclaim the Gospel. It is not about persevering unto eternal life. Context is clear." holdon

 

[holdon]

go back a few posts ;

he who perseveres to the end shall be saved , to which you replied salvation can mean different things ...... later you switched from this defense , to perseverance ....


"Anyway, the context it about the circumstances under which the disciples were to proclaim the Gospel. It is not about persevering unto eternal life. Context is clear." holdon

I said: "it is not about perseverance unto eternal life". And you say, I said it is???? Who is confused here?

 

[cygnusx1]

I said: "it is not about perseverance unto eternal life". And you say, I said it is???? Who is confused here?

moving on ........ seeing as you like to see conditions for effectual calling but none for osas , howabout this ;

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]In John. 15[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Verse 6 : [/SIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned (NIV).[/SIZE][/FONT]
  
  
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]is this not evidence of conditional security , because there are several other scriptures that use the "if" word ......
  [/SIZE][/FONT]
  
  
  
  
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]btw , personally i take effectual calling , election and POS AS facts , no conditions , but that is my understanding.
  [/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[holdon]

moving on ........ seeing as you like to see conditions for effectual calling but none for osas , howabout this ;

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]In John. 15[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Verse 6 : [/SIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned (NIV).[/SIZE][/FONT]
  
  
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]is this not evidence of conditional security , because there are several other scriptures that use the "if" word ...... [/SIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]It is about responsability. And it does not say: if any of you disciples, although He speaks of "ye" in the verses before and after, but in this verse it is "anyone" and thus making the contrast. [/SIZE][/FONT]
• It is not about eternal security, but regarding fruit bearing, which is evidently here on earth.