The Flood

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The problem with this hypothesis is that the drying up and subsequent flooding happened too far in the past to be part of any human oral tradition.

The flooding marked the end of the Messinian salinity crisis, the drying up of the Mediterranean Sea.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...of+the+mediterranean&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk

It happened around 5 million years ago, about the same time that Chimps and early Hominids were becoming separate species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(prehistoric)

That site gives some other deluges in the recent, geologically recent, past.

The Black Sea or the Tigris/Euphrates basin would seem to be more likely candidates to be remembered in human oral tradition. The Mediterranean deluge happened before humans language existed.

I think the Black Sea filling is now considered to have happened too slowly to be a good canditate for the Noah's flood. There may have been any number of large local floods in mesopotamia during the Neolithic Wet Period between about 9,000 and 2,500 BC. Since it is a legend recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh it probably occured before the founding of UR in about 2600 BC.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Servant, some time ago I listed 10 things that would be physically different if the Flood had not occurred. I'll see if you can name 5.

Let's say that there are two earths --- Earth1 and Earth2. Both created as stipulated in Genesis 1. The Flood occurs on Earth 1, but not on Earth 2. Show me just five things that would be physically different about Earth 2.

Do you mean differences between your two mythical earths, Earth1 and Earth2 or differences between reality and what would be expected if there had been a global flood about 4,500 years ago on an earth that had been formed from nothing about 6,000 years ago?

 

[Servant222]

But I'm not denying that the flood didn't occur- I'm just questioning whether it was a world-wide flood, or one that just involved the civilized or populated world of that time, as 2 Peter seems to suggest.

Could you list your 10 points so I don't have to search all day looking for them? That way, I could efficiently respond to each one.

 

[Servant222]

I think the Black Sea filling is now considered to have happened too slowly to be a good canditate for the Noah's flood. There may have been any number of large local floods in mesopotamia during the Neolithic Wet Period between about 9,000 and 2,500 BC. Since it is a legend recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh it probably occured before the founding of UR in about 2600 BC.

I think the point in mentioning the Mediterranean flood is that, with our modern understanding of plate tectonics, a cataclysmic flood such as is described in the Bible, is within the realm of scientific possibility.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

But I'm not denying that the flood didn't occur- I'm just questioning whether it was a world-wide flood, or one that just involved the civilized or populated world of that time, as 2 Peter seems to suggest.

Could you list your 10 points so I don't have to search all day looking for them? That way, I could efficiently respond to each one.

i think that a massive local flood removes most of the scientific and logistical issues with Noah's Flood. I have personally always interpreted it as a local flood, then again i have always felt that the lessons of the flood story are more important than the historicity of it.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I think the point in mentioning the Mediterranean flood is that, with our modern understanding of plate tectonics, a cataclysmic flood such as is described in the Bible, is within the realm of scientific possibility.

There certainly were some catastrophic floods at the end of the last ice age as well as many others in human history. Since many primative peoples considered themselves the only true people or the only people of significance a local flood on an ancient earth makes sense and does overcome most if not all of the massive technical problems with the Young Earth global flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

But I'm not denying that the flood didn't occur- I'm just questioning whether it was a world-wide flood, or one that just involved the civilized or populated world of that time, as 2 Peter seems to suggest.

Could you list your 10 points so I don't have to search all day looking for them? That way, I could efficiently respond to each one.

I'll do my best here --- since I did them before from memory.

Earth2 would have:

1. A water canopy surrounding it.
2. A uniform temperature.
3. No rainfall.
4. A race of giants.
5. Extreme sin and debauchery everywhere.
6. Women married to angels.
7. Dinosaurs roaming around.
8. No ice caps.
9. A mist watering the ground.
10. A huge underground reservoir of water.

 

[Contracelsus]

Earth2 would have:

A water canopy surrounding it.
A uniform temperature.
No rainfall.

Here's a pretty cool explanation of how turning a "Water canopy" into a global flood would "cook the earth".
This is from the site http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/canopy.html

Another problem is getting the water out of the atmosphere and onto the ground without cooking everything on the earth. Each gram of water vapor that condenses to a liquid releases 539 calories of heat. For a vapor canopy to produce a global water layer of only 40 feet deep, 6.22 x 1021 grams of water would release 3.35 x 1024 calories, raising the temperature of the earth to 810°F. Such a scenario would definitely kill all life on earth, but would produce a tremendous air conditioning problem for Noah. And a 40 feet deep flood would certainly not be global.

But lets get back to the AV1611VET list:

A race of giants.
Extreme sin and debauchery everywhere.
Women married to angels.

That sounds pretty debauched. Giant racing and interspecies marriages, all in a superhumid atmosphere.

Sounds kinda like New Orleans.

Dinosaurs roaming around.
No ice caps.

Why no ice caps? Did the sun irradiate the earth uniformly in those days? Was the earth closer to the sun?

A mist watering the ground.

What do you use to differentiat "rain" from a "mist" watering the ground?

 

[Naraoia]

The feeding of the 5000 was clearly a miracle- and certainly tells us that God can do anything.

But a world-wide Biblical flood was never thought of as being a miracle by Christians, but an event that really did happen.

Wait a minute, so you are saying that a miracle is not "an event that really did happen"? Then the feeding of 5000 clearly didn't happen, and doesn't tell us that God can do anything

 

[Servant222]

Is it worth bringing up that ships didnt even approach the claimed size of the ark until steel reinforcement in the mid-late 1800s?

Mmmh- even Wikipedia documents wooden ships without steel that were up to about 340 feet long. I know this isn't quite as big as Noah's arc (450 feet), but at least we're within the ballpark of feasibility.

 

[Servant222]

Wait a minute, so you are saying that a miracle is not "an event that really did happen"? Then the feeding of 5000 clearly didn't happen, and doesn't tell us that God can do anything

I presume you said this in jest, but for the record:

1. I believe that God made the Universe and that it is ordered and functions according to the laws of science.

2. However, I also believe in miracles- instances where God allows something to happen that cannot be explained by the normal laws of science.

 

[Servant222]

There certainly were some catastrophic floods at the end of the last ice age as well as many others in human history. Since many primative peoples considered themselves the only true people or the only people of significance a local flood on an ancient earth makes sense and does overcome most if not all of the massive technical problems with the Young Earth global flood.

True. In North America, there are at least some First Nation's legends that mention the occurrence of a catastrophic flood that apparently covered the world. In western Canada, many of the First Nation's people believe in such a flood- and often mention places where the canoes carrying survivors first encountered land again. Since the vast majority of Canada was covered with thick ice during the last ice age, and that ice when it melted must have produced widespread flooding, this suggests that the flood of First Nation's legends might have occurred since deglaciation.

Of course, if you're a young earth creationist, this presents problems since the last ice age ended about 10.4 thousand years before present.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I presume you said this in jest, but for the record:

1. I believe that God made the Universe and that it is ordered and functions according to the laws of science.

2. However, I also believe in miracles- instances where God allows something to happen that cannot be explained by the normal laws of science.

Do you also believe that God is good? If so, how do you reconcile the problem of evil? If not, how do you reconcile the Biblical passages stating the contrary (by your icon, I assume you take the Bible as true (literally or otherwise))?

EDIT: I realise this is somewhat off-topic, but indulge me

 

[Skaloop]

Mmmh- even Wikipedia documents wooden ships without steel that were up to about 340 feet long. I know this isn't quite as big as Noah's arc (450 feet), but at least we're within the ballpark of feasibility.

A 30% increase in length is hardly "within the ballpark."

 

[Servant222]

I'll do my best here --- since I did them before from memory.

Earth2 would have:

1. A water canopy surrounding it.
2. A uniform temperature.
3. No rainfall.
4. A race of giants.
5. Extreme sin and debauchery everywhere.
6. Women married to angels.
7. Dinosaurs roaming around.
8. No ice caps.
9. A mist watering the ground.
10. A huge underground reservoir of water.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the science you're assuming here. So Earth2 is one that didn't have a global flood.

1. Why would it have a water canopy surrounding it? The present earth is 2/3 water and would be entirely underwater if the world was flat- so wouldn't that be more than enough water to cause flooding of Biblical proportions?

2. Why would there necessarily be uniform temperatures when the fact is that the earth is a sphere, which means that the sun's rays strike different areas of the globe at a greater or lesser angle, therefore always assuring that temperatures will be variable.

3. No rain??? As long as there is a sun and oceans, there will be heating, and there will be evaporation, which will eventually bring rain.

4. A race of giants. You've lost me here- why would human beings be taller now if there hadn't been a flood?

5. Sin and debauchery? You mean because all those sinners killed by the flood would still be around? You make it sound like sin is inherited like hair and skin color.

BTW, if you don't believe in evolution, then how do you explain why we now have so many different races (and what ethnic group were Adam and Eve anyway?).

6. Why would the absence of Biblical flooding allow women to be married to angels?

7. Why would dinosaurs still be living if there had not been a flood? The favored theory today is that dinosaurs became extinct because of a meteor that struck the earth and created a dust cloud that temporarily reduced the amount of sunlight available to make plants, which meant the dinosaurs did not have enough to eat, and starved to death. Of course, it also must have gotten awfully cold and dark during that time, which also wouldn't have helped the dinosaurs plight.

8. Why would a lack of flooding mean a lack of ice caps? Ice caps are produced when world temperatures drop, and the precipitation that falls on land areas of the earth (currently, mainly in the Northern Hemisphere) accumulates as ice. We know from the Vostok Ice Core studies that it doesn't take much of a temperature rise or fall to dramatically affect the amount of ice that does or does not form.

BTW, the many ice cores that have been obtained in Antarctica and independently in Greenland have layer upon layer of annual ice that can easily be shown to be hundreds of thousands of years old- pretty convincing evidence that the earth is more than 6100 years old.

9. A mist watering the ground. Why just a mist, and not the kind of weather patterns that we see on the earth today that are caused by the distribution of land and water, prevailing winds, differential heating of the earth due to its spherical shape and distance from the Sun?

10. There are some pretty big aquifers present world-wide- but how does this relate to the presence of absence of a Biblical flood?

I embrace science and find that my understanding of science greatly enhances my appreciation of the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

I embrace science and find that my understanding of science greatly enhances my appreciation of the Bible.

Servant, please don't take this question wrong, but how long have you been saved?

This stuff is very basic Theology, and you're coming across like you've never heard it before.

I'm afraid that if I got through all of this, you'll just handwave it away.

In any event, if you really want to know these things, I have a thread here that should help.

If not, let me know.

 

[Servant222]

Do you also believe that God is good?

Sure has been good to me!!

If so, how do you reconcile the problem of evil?

Original sin. God originally gave us a free will and we blew it.

I do not in any way, shape or form pretend to understand the mind of God and why some things happen as they do.

But for some reason, presumably unlike you, I have this unshakeable faith that:

1. the world is created, not an accident.

2. the Bible can be trusted to provide an accurate account of God's interaction with people, and how, despite that original sin, we can be reconciled with God and be with Him now and forevermore.

My trust in God and His word gives me great peace and has brought me many blessings and happiness in life.

Try it, you'll like it- it's only a simple prayer away.

 

[Servant222]

Servant, please don't take this question wrong, but how long have you been saved?

Since I was about 5 years old and my father and I hiked to the top of a mountain and watched as the sun filtered through a thin cloud layer, and cast a beautiful glow over the alpine flowers and rock at our feet.

My Dad asked me if I thought this was all an accident, or created.

It was a preposterous question back then, and is still today, more than 50 years later.

 

[AV1611VET]

Since I was about 5 years old and my father and I hiked to the top of a mountain and watched as the sun filtered through a thin cloud layer, and cast a beautiful glow over the alpine flowers and rock at our feet.

My Dad asked me if I thought this was all an accident, or created.

It was a preposterous question back then, and is still today, more than 50 years later.

Pick any one of your questions in Post 875, and I'll be glad to answer it as best I can.

Then, depending on your response, we'll go from there.

Fair enough?

 

[Inan3]

Do you also believe that God is good? If so, how do you reconcile the problem of evil? If not, how do you reconcile the Biblical passages stating the contrary (by your icon, I assume you take the Bible as true (literally or otherwise))?

EDIT: I realise this is somewhat off-topic, but indulge me

You do so love those indulgences don't you WC. You know the answers to these questions or you should, because they have been told to you by several of us. Now do you really want to know or are you trying to get S222 all riled up?