Ring species

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

I don't know --- I suppose the same thing that kept Shadrach, Meshach, and Abnego alive in the burning, fiery furnace, which was heated to seven times its capacity.



Not necessarily ---

[bible]Deuteronomy 29:29[/bible]

great so you can spout anything that you wish and as long as it is at least mildly based upon scripture you are absolved of any responsibility to defend your statements because 1 God said it so it must be true and 2 any inconsistency is a flaw of our ability to understand or just another one of God's mysteries.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

AV, does evidence hold any importance or meaning to you?

 

[Aggie]

I’d like to point out that Answers in Genesis has the claim that the Second Law of Thermodynamics began at the fall on their list of arguments that creationists should not use.

“The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall.”

This law says that the entropy (“disorder”) of the universe increases over time, and some have thought that this was the result of the Curse. However, disorder isn’t always harmful. An obvious example is digestion, breaking down large complex food molecules into their simple building blocks. Another is friction, which turns ordered mechanical energy into disordered heat—otherwise Adam and Eve would have slipped as they walked with God in Eden! A less obvious example to laymen might be the sun heating the earth—to a physical chemist, heat transfer from a hot object to a cold one is the classic case of the Second Law in action. Also, breathing is based on another classic Second Law process, gas moving from a high pressure to low pressure. Finally, all beneficial processes in the world, including the development from embryo to adult, increase the overall disorder of the universe, showing that the Second Law is not inherently a curse.

Even AiG seems to demand that scripture be interpreted in a way at least somewhat consistent with the physical world, although they tend to not apply this standard consistently. Do you disagree with them about this?

 

[AV1611VET]

Then why would God give us evidence to the contrary? I'm just trying to understand how such a great, loving, and just being would deceive us and leave us just a book to go on; especially when there are texts like the Bhagavad Gita that are in direct opposition to the Bible.

Why wasn't I deceived? Why wasn't my whole church deceived?

Why is it the only ones who cry "deceived" are the ones who put "science" above Scripture?

It's interesting that you [plural] use the word "deceive" in describing God, in light of:

[bible]Matthew 27:63[/bible]

You want to see a real deceiver?

[bible]2 John 1:7[/bible]

 

[AV1611VET]

great so you can spout anything that you wish and as long as it is at least mildly based upon scripture you are absolved of any responsibility to defend your statements because 1 God said it so it must be true and 2 any inconsistency is a flaw of our ability to understand or just another one of God's mysteries.

No, Jack, I can't "spout anything that I wish."

That's one of the advantages of interpreting Genesis literally; you can't just say anything and get away with it.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, does evidence hold any importance or meaning to you?

None whatsoever ---

[bible]Ecclesiastes 3:11[/bible]

 

[Vene]

Why wasn't I deceived? Why wasn't my whole church deceived?

Why is it the only ones who cry "deceived" are the ones who put "science" above Scripture?

It's interesting that you [plural] use the word "deceive" in describing God, in light of:

[bible]Matthew 27:63[/bible]

You want to see a real deceiver?

[bible]2 John 1:7[/bible]

What about the other religions in the world? Are they deceivers as well? What about those that existed before Judaism and Christianity? Or the ones that existed in places other places after the birth of Christianity who have never heard of Jesus? Are all of these people deceivers as well?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you disagree with them about this?

No, I don't disagree --- in fact --- this is the first time I ever answered this question:

AV, a question: Was the second law of thermodynamics in effect before the fall?

--- with this answer:

I don't think so --- at least not the way it operates today.

 

[NailsII]

Why wasn't I deceived? Why wasn't my whole church deceived?

Why is it the only ones who cry "deceived" are the ones who put "science" above Scripture?

You want to see a real deceiver?

Read the book of Job.
It shows your god to be the greatest deciever there is.
A bully, a megalomaniac who picked on a rightous man because he could.

 

[AV1611VET]

What about the other religions in the world? Are they deceivers as well?

No --- they are deceived.

What about those that existed before Judaism and Christianity?

Please note that God cleared pwned the major religions of the time --- here are a few examples:

Egyptian gods ---

[bible]Exodus 12:12[/bible]

Philistine gods ---

[bible]1 Samuel 5:4[/bible]

Canaanite gods ---

[bible]1 Kings 18:27[/bible]

Persian gods ---

[bible]Daniel 3:17[/bible]
[bible]Daniel 4:33[/bible]

New Age gods ---

[bible]Acts 19:19[/bible]

Or the ones that existed in places other places after the birth of Christianity who have never heard of Jesus?

Paul makes it clear that those who have never heard the Gospel have been given the ability to interpret nature in such a way as to do what needs to be done in order to get saved.

[bible]Romans 1:20[/bible]

 

[NailsII]

Please note that God cleared pwned the major religions of the time --- here are a few examples:

Egyptian gods ---

[bible]Exodus 12:12[/bible]

Despite the obvious plagerism of the egyptian book of the dead to produce the 10 commandments....

 

[AV1611VET]

Read the book of Job.
It shows your god to be the greatest deciever there is.
A bully, a megalomaniac who picked on a rightous man because he could.

Not even close, Nails --- not even close.

Does this sound like the testimony of someone being picked on by God?

[bible]Job 2:9-10[/bible]
[bible]Job 19:25[/bible]
[bible]Job 42:12[/bible]

 

[AV1611VET]

Despite the obvious plagerism of the egyptian book of the dead to produce the 10 commandments....

What???

 

[Aggie]

Even AiG seems to demand that scripture be interpreted in a way at least somewhat consistent with the physical world, although they tend to not apply this standard consistently. Do you disagree with them about this?

No, I don't disagree --- in fact --- this is the first time I ever answered this question:

AV, a question:
Was the second law of thermodynamics in effect before the fall?

--- with this answer:

I don't think so --- at least not the way it operates today.

So you’re saying you don’t disagree with them that scripture has to be interpreted in a way that’s consistent with the physical world?

I know you’ve said elsewhere that most of the time, you don’t think people should allow physical evidence to affect their interpretations of scripture. How do you determine in what situations it’s acceptable to do this?

 

[AV1611VET]

So you’re saying you don’t disagree with them that scripture has to be interpreted in a way that’s consistent with the physical world?

I know you’ve said elsewhere that most of the time, you don’t think people should allow physical evidence to affect their interpretations of scripture. How do you determine in what situations it’s acceptable to do this?

Aggie, here it is plain and simple:

• Where the Bible disagrees with science --- science is wrong.

I can't make it any plainer than that.

If I made any statements to the contrary --- I was wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know you’ve said elsewhere that most of the time, you don’t think people should allow physical evidence to affect their interpretations of scripture. How do you determine in what situations it’s acceptable to do this?

Only where there's no contradiction between the evidence and the Scriptures.

If evidence says this earth is 6100 years old, that's fine with me.

If evidence says this earth is 6100[sup]6100[/sup] years old, that's fine with me.

It's where evidence and Scripture disagree, that I have to choose --- and guess what I'm going to choose every time?

 

[Blayz]

Not even close, Nails --- not even close.

Does this sound like the testimony of someone being picked on by God?

Dunno...lets ask his first wife and family...oh, that's right, we cannot, God let them be slaughtered. I always chuckle when Job comes up, like the fact he got a new wife and some new animals somehow makes up for the god-condoned slaughter of his original family.

 

[AV1611VET]

Dunno...lets ask his first wife and family...oh, that's right, we cannot, God let them be slaughtered. I always chuckle when Job comes up, like the fact he got a new wife and some new animals somehow makes up for the god-condoned slaughter of his original family.

While you're chuckling, show me where Job's wife got slaughtered.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Only where there's no contradiction between the evidence and the Scriptures.

If evidence says this earth is 6100 years old, that's fine with me.

If evidence says this earth is 6100[sup]6100[/sup] years old, that's fine with me.

It's where evidence and Scripture disagree, that I have to choose --- and guess what I'm going to choose every time?

Then how do you know the Bible is right? You have clearly outlined that no matter what you see, hear, feel, taste, experience, if it disagrees with the words on the page, then everything else must be thrown out.

That makes the Bible the single weakest data point ever conceived.

Even if the Bible were true, you would not know it. How could you know it? You have decreed that if data were to disagree with the Bible then you will reject the data.

That means the Bible is not strong enough to stand up to any scrutiny.

I feel sorry for someone's religion if they themselves feel it is so weak that it can't possibly stand on its own. It's truths are meaningless because they must be defended this way.

Why must ones' god be so weak that his truths aren't patently obvious for all to see?

Disagree with gravity, disagree with the Second Law, whatever. It won't matter. You will still fall. Closed systems will still trend toward greater disorder. But God has to be defended by selectively ignoring everything if it comes to that?

 

[Blayz]

While you're chuckling, show me where Job's wife got slaughtered.

I stand corrected. It was just his kids...and his servants.