When the Pope is to be taken infallibly

[Benedicta00]

So I'm not a horrible Catholic if I just don't agree with it.... and maybe just can never agree with it in my heart for whatever reason? I am seriously not even trying to tell God no I don't believe this, I just seriously don't understand it and I can't agree with it.

And geo I know you were kidding, but when I see statements around OBOB that are like "do this Catholic thing or go to hell" that really upsets me. I'm a sinner, I won't ever deny that, but when it comes to simply not being able to agree with my Church's faith, it hurts and it makes me sad and depressed. I don't like being told that I'm sinning and not understanding why I'm sinning.

Maybe it's harder since I'm not a cradle Catholic. My boyfriend at the time when I converted was one and he just accepted everything--- I can't do that and it upset me when he couldn't properly explain something to me about the faith. So yes I guess I'm still going through my conversion, even though I'm baptized and confirmed.

Catholic faith is alot harder than most other Christian faiths.

It's not that you are a "bad Catholic"... and certainly not, you're going to hell, it is just more of a question of why are you one if you disagree with some or much of her teachings?

 

[geocajun]

say what?

What part escaped your understanding?

 

[Benedicta00]

So, I'm not saying the Pope would EVER do this. But what if one day he wrote something that clearly went against something in the Bible. Would I have to believe in this as well? Are there any kinds of checks and balances?

What bothers me about this is NOT the teachings the come from our Popes--I've read some and they're amazingly beautiful and have helped me spiritually, so I know they're legit stuff. But I don't like being told that I have to believe in this, even if I don't understand or have the faith to believe in it, otherwise I'm sinning.

So if I don't believe that the Pope is infallible, is that a sin? I'm not saying anything about the Pope's teachings, I'm just saying that I would have to read what he is teaching, study it, review it, and see if I can faithfully follow it before deeming it, in my heart, a good teaching.

Also, is the Pope a sinner? Is that allowable to be said?

The checks and balances is him. If he ever taught something "clearly against the bible" like the resurrection never did happen, we can all pack up and go home because that means Christianity as a whole is a fraud.

Take sin out of this and throw it out the window because is has nothing to do with infallibility given St. Peter's chair. It's just not relevant. He can sin, so what? BUt he will never be allowed by God to teach us an error. That is the checks and balances.

 

[Benedicta00]

What part escaped your understanding?

the last... did I read that right?

 

[geocajun]

the last... did I read that right?

Hang on, first you have to tell me how you read it

 

[HisKid1973]

The checks and balances is him. If he ever taught something "clearly against the bible" like the resurrection never did happen, we can all pack up and go home because that means Christianity as a whole is a fraud.

Ok, just for a side thought what if an anti pope showed up for the last pope looking to be part of the great falling away for Catholic Church. How would those who are not just pew sitters in the faith handle that? Would they just go blindly along?
shalom..Kim

On the other hand for the orthodox and Protestant they would not think their faith was a sham..I am not trying to debate just trying to see what you think..

 

[Benedicta00]

Ok, just for a side thought what if an anti pope showed up for the last pope looking to be part of the great falling away for Catholic Church. How would those who are not just pew sitters in the faith handle that? Would they just go blindly along?
shalom..Kim

On the other hand for the orthodox and Protestant they would not think their faith was a sham..I am not trying to debate just trying to see what you think..

anti Pope...? You mean like a anti Christ? We have never had one.

We can play a lot of what ifs but the reality is in 2000 years we never had a pope who usd the keys to teach error or heresy to us as a divine truth and we never will.

Now we did we have some bad boy popes? Legend says we did but they were far and few between.

 

[Benedicta00]

What part escaped your understanding?

it has been speculated that if the pope were to err, and declare someone a Saint who isn't one, the power of the keys would be invoked, and that person would be freed into heaven

huh? say what?

 

[HisKid1973]

I just am referring to those Malachi (sp?)
prophecy that I read about in here..

 

[geocajun]

huh? say what?

I'm trying to dig up a quote on it for you, but the jist of it is that the pope cannot speak infallibly and be wrong, so if he were to declare someone a Saint who really wasn't, they would become one, rather than the pope be wrong on defining them one. I did qualify that by saying it wasn't my opinion, but rather just some speculation that I'd read before.

 

[Snowbunny]

I thought this was interesting. This can be used when folks throw the infallible propoganda our way.

gracias BAFRIEND,

this is one of the most difficult things to explain to non Catholics. they think papal infallibility means the pope does not sin (impeccability) and that everything he says is right. papal infallibility has been used either six or seven times in 1700 years...

Dominus vobiscum

 

[Benedicta00]

I just am referring to those Malachi (sp?)
prophecy that I read about in here..

Legendary.

 

[MichaelFJF]

I believe it's once in 2000 years. Some would say twice, but either way it's concerning Mary, so it's not something that gets used on a whim.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm trying to dig up a quote on it for you, but the jist of it is that the pope cannot speak infallibly and be wrong, so if he were to declare someone a Saint who really wasn't, they would become one, rather than the pope be wrong on defining them one. I did qualify that by saying it wasn't my opinion, but rather just some speculation that I'd read before.

To tell you the truth, I think I heard that before and FWIW, I think it's absurd.

The point is, we can play what ifs all we want. It never happened and it won't becuase it can't.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I just am referring to those Malachi (sp?)
prophecy that I read about in here..

No, that was not what the last Pope is going to do.

He will be persecuted I think.
But many will fall away from lack of faith not because the Pope...

But I would have to read that again.

 

[WarriorAngel]

To tell you the truth, I think I heard that before and FWIW, I think it's absurd.

The point is, we can play what ifs all we want. It never happened and it won't becuase it can't.

Being that I am not quite certain how the Lord works in regards to His Pope...
I will say though, that what He holds bound is bound, and what he holds loosed is loosed.

So it could be a possibility. I think Jesus gave him alot of authority.

However, in the sense of St Christopher...if Kim is suggesting that, I am not certain about all of that.
The Church didnt proclaim anything that I know of that wasnt more than a rumor that his Sainthood was revoked.

I heard alot of rumors.
1) He never existed so the Church never proclaimed him a Saint.
2) He was not extraordinary, so he was revoked.
3) He is still a Saint/
4) He was once a Catholic but he never did make it to Sainthood.

So, being that the Church still makes medals with St Christopher I am going to take the understanding that he is a Saint.
Or the ppl making medals dont know he never existed.

Kim, most Saints are carefully and with great scrutiny canonized after researching everything about them.

It is not a slap dash event... but one done very methodically.
Albeit in the past it was not done in the same way... but rather holy ppl were assumed Saints.

That's not to say the Church was wrong for knowing them as Saints for some reason.

Anything is possible and for all we know, the Saints returned to say they were in Heaven. I dont know.

You will not see me act as though I have all the answers... because I dont. But i can probably find them if i take the time. lol

 

[BAFRIEND]

Don't ask me for sources, but I do believe in the past the Church declaring a person a Saint probably took a very long period of time. Normally, living witnesses to the persons life would be long dead. There are exceptions. JPII named many many Saints and a lot of them died in the 1900s. This is very bold as Hiskid pointed out because what if new information were to surface ?

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

this is one of the most difficult things to explain to non Catholics. they think papal infallibility means the pope does not sin (impeccability) and that everything he says is right. papal infallibility has been used either six or seven times in 1700 years...

Wikipedia lists seven instances of papal infallibility in the Church's two thousand year history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_papal_infallibility

 

[Benedicta00]

Don't ask me for sources, but I do believe in the past the Church declaring a person a Saint probably took a very long period of time. Normally, living witnesses to the persons life would be long dead. There are exceptions. JPII named many many Saints and a lot of them died in the 1900s. This is very bold as Hiskid pointed out because what if new information were to surface ?

and if if was a skiff we we'd all go rowing. My grandmother used to tell me that.

 

[BAFRIEND]

and if if was a skiff we we'd all go rowing. My grandmother used to tell me that.

Could you change rowing to bowling ?

I prefer bowling over rowing.