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Yikes DNA proves what??

Chalnoth

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Chalnoth,

You'll pardon me if I disagree. Both of my Doctoral degrees required scholarship and a delight in learning AND had the requirement that I exercise my mind.
That in no way negates what I said. The whole of Christianity is not theologians, after all. The simple fact that my statement revolves around is the belief among nearly all Christians that blind faith is a virtue. This is an explicit statement that it is virtuous to believe blindly, to not think, to just accept. I don't see how the existence of intelligent theologians can wipe away the simple fact that most Christians believe blind faith is a virtue.
 
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Carey

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It always amazed me how Christians can blissfully claim that they aren't as intelligent as those against whom they are arguing, and yet still come out of it believing that they are correct, and the more intelligent person is deluded.

Really, now, Carey. Which do you think happens more commonly? That an unintelligent person is deluded? Or an intelligent person is?

P.S. I would like to mention that it seems rather apparent to me that the majority of our intelligence is not inborn, but rather learned. So much of Christianity revolves around delighting in ignorance, and ensuring that followers never exercise their minds. Exercise of the mind, after all, is what leads people to intelligence in the first place.

Actually I agree with you.

Exercise of the mind is good.

I disagree however that intellect is not inborn.:doh:

I also strenuously disagree that intelect is learned ^_^

I know formally taught education often lacks thought and includes more memorization.

Therefore one would conclude a formally educated person is actually less knowlegeable and more easily diluded by what ever institutions school of thought has been force fead to the formally educated person rather than studying real evidence for oneself.

I submit the level of intellect has nothing to do with formal education or the lack of.
 
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Chalnoth

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I disagree however that intellect is not inborn.:doh:

I also strenuously disagree that intelect is learned ^_^
A part of intelligence is certainly inborn. But the larger part is learned, by far.

I know formally taught education often lacks thought and includes more memorization.

Therefore one would conclude a formally educated person is actually less knowlegeable and more easily diluded by what ever institutions school of thought has been force fead to the formally educated person rather than studying real evidence for oneself.

I submit the level of intellect has nothing to do with formal education or the lack of.
More memorization than what, exactly? What are you comparing formal education to? And, furthermore, what formal education are you talking about?

Because my formal education had almost no memorization whatsoever: I explicitly avoided courses where memorization was required. But what's more, I never claimed that formal education was a cause of intelligence. I merely said that intelligence can be developed through exercise, and yes, formal education is one such form. It disturbs me that I think you have not exercised your brain much at all.
 
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Carey

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A part of intelligence is certainly inborn. But the larger part is learned, by far.


More memorization than what, exactly? What are you comparing formal education to? And, furthermore, what formal education are you talking about?

Because my formal education had almost no memorization whatsoever: I explicitly avoided courses where memorization was required. But what's more, I never claimed that formal education was a cause of intelligence. I merely said that intelligence can be developed through exercise, and yes, formal education is one such form. It disturbs me that I think you have not exercised your brain much at all.

I am not disturbed We all go through our time of learning as will undoubtedly have to do..but I know you have not exercised your mind much or you would not have such blind faith in the religion of science.

if you had ecercised your mind and read the word of God and used your mind to understand its literal and plain good news and widom you would be a believer .
 
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Vene

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So, if science is a religion, then what are the tenets. What do scientists worship? What do scientists have faith in?

And most importantly, why do you use a computer if science is a religion and you're a Christian? Science is responsible for computers and technology. (computer science anyone)
 
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Chalnoth

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I am not disturbed We all go through our time of learning as will undoubtedly have to do..but I know you have not exercised your mind much or you would not have such blind faith in the religion of science.

if you had ecercised your mind and read the word of God and used your mind to understand its literal and plain good news and widom you would be a believer .
Ah, yes, I laughed pretty hard after reading this. As a scientist, I cannot have blind faith in science and still do my job. To fail to question science would be to stop working. Your claim that I have "blind faith" in science, therefore, is absolutely ludicrous.

But what's more, science is in no way, shape, or form a religion. It's nothing more and nothing less than the best method humans have yet found to discover the truth about reality.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I am not disturbed We all go through our time of learning as will undoubtedly have to do..but I know you have not exercised your mind much or you would not have such blind faith in the religion of science.

if you had ecercised your mind and read the word of God and used your mind to understand its literal and plain good news and widom you would be a believer .
And if you had really really exercised your mind, you would see that a literal interpretation of the Bible leads to logical contradictions, and that any common interpretation of the Bible is both internally and externally inconsistent.

See, I can do it too. Difference is, I'm right :preach:.
 
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Carey

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Ah, yes, I laughed pretty hard after reading this. As a scientist, I cannot have blind faith in science and still do my job. To fail to question science would be to stop working. Your claim that I have "blind faith" in science, therefore, is absolutely ludicrous.

But what's more, science is in no way, shape, or form a religion. It's nothing more and nothing less than the best method humans have yet found to discover the truth about reality.


There’s a difference between actual experience and how we describe experience. To describe experience, we create models or representations which are linguistic on the most base level. I see science as a descriptive model of reality, rather than as reality itself. As a descriptive model or story-system, science is fundamentally no different from religion. Both act as representations which allow us to share meaning culturally. But they are both maps rather than the territory, which means they are both subject to the inaccuracies and distortions of representation.
The reason science has so much sway is that it’s a very useful model for manifesting thought into reality, and in observing and predicting actual experience. Some would claim it’s “more” useful than religious models, and thus is more accurate or closer to the true nature of reality. I guess one of my questions is: what is it more useful for?
The biggest difference between science and other formal religions is that science operates around the myth of progress. At it’s core, it says that one idea or model is better than another, and that the better one will win out eventually in the marketplace of ideas. Evolution. The survival of the fittest - that which fits actual experience the best.
But does it fit everyday experience the best? Do black holes or quantum particles have any relation to my every day life? Does knowing how to make a bigger building or a smarter bomb or prolong my life artificially really benefit me? We take it as an article of faith that it does. Progress = better + happier + more productive. But is that always the case - does that always fit the available data? It certainly does not. Here’s a simple real-life example: do you have a favorite computer program that when the next version of it was released, they got rid of some of your favorite features? That happens all the time.
The thing I do like about science though is exactly this openness to change. Most religions are closed systems which only grudgingly admit doctrinal changes over generations of time. Oh whoops! That describes science too, doesn’t it? My bad! But in all seriousness though, this ability to revise itself (at least on an idealistic level) is the best thing about the scientific religion. It recognizes that times change and people change (though they don’t necessarily get better), and that the ideas that we live according to must change accordingly.
I know some of you are probably sitting there still after reading all this and screaming: but science just IS true! You can’t argue it! Why not? Because you’re emotionally invested in it? Science is just a collection of ideas about reality, not reality itself. That said though, I think we have a pretty distorted view of how other cultures and time periods viewed their religion. For us, religious faith is generally a private matter - by that, I mean it’s something we believe in no matter what. Our belief goes out first as a pathfinder for our experience, helping us to sort and categorize. But belief for us is in a lot of ways a consumerist pursuit. We get to dine at the buffet of ideas and choose which most closely match our own inner sense of spirituality. People in other times didn’t run around picking and choosing though. For them, the way they interacted with religion was how we interact with science. It just was. There wasn’t any arguing except over minor theological differences (PS. theology used to be considered the “queen” of the sciences), and it didn’t make any sense to question it, because doing so would take you outside the conceptual orbit of the society into a slippery world of heresy and persecution. People often laugh about how anyone could have been stupid enough to believe that the Sun orbited the Earth or that the Earth was flat. It’s easy. Just look at the things that you believe about science. These erroneous assumptions are as invisible to you as those things were to people then.
 
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Chalnoth

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There’s a difference between actual experience and how we describe experience. To describe experience, we create models or representations which are linguistic on the most base level. I see science as a descriptive model of reality, rather than as reality itself. As a descriptive model or story-system, science is fundamentally no different from religion. Both act as representations which allow us to share meaning culturally. But they are both maps rather than the territory, which means they are both subject to the inaccuracies and distortions of representation.
Carey, you really need to stop plagiarizing. At the very least place the text in quotations.

Anyway, science is vastly different from religion, for one fundamental reason: science is self-correcting. And, by the way, was it science or religion that gave us modern medicine? Was it science or religion that gave us vaccines? Was it science or religion that gave us the steam engine? Was it science or religion that gave us nuclear power? Was it science or religion that gave us the computer? Was it science or religion that gave us the Internet?

Now, which is more useful?
 
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KCfromNC

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Carey

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Carey, you really need to stop plagiarizing. At the very least place the text in quotations.

Anyway, science is vastly different from religion, for one fundamental reason: science is self-correcting. And, by the way, was it science or religion that gave us modern medicine? Was it science or religion that gave us vaccines? Was it science or religion that gave us the steam engine? Was it science or religion that gave us nuclear power? Was it science or religion that gave us the computer? Was it science or religion that gave us the Internet?

Now, which is more useful?

Well I guess they are both equally useful for different purposes.

Actually science helped fulfill a Biblical prophecyWithout telecom and the internet this would not be possible.

Matthew 24 : 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

It also would not be possible without preachers you call religious.

So that one prophecy required the religion of science and the Relgion of what some call Christianity.

Does not matter God will use all religions and people to fulfill the Bible prophecies.

I personally do not consider myself religious at all.

I do believe the Bible is 100 % accurate.
 
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Vene

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I personally do not consider myself religious at all.

I do believe the Bible is 100 % accurate.

You do realize these two statements are mutually exclusive right? What definition are you using for religious?
 
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FishFace

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Matthew 24 : 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

Implication: the end will come shortly after the gospel has been preached to the whole world. Comments?

I personally do not consider myself religious at all.

I do believe the Bible is 100 % accurate.

What motivation could you possibly have other than a religious one?
 
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Carey

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Implication: the end will come shortly after the gospel has been preached to the whole world. Comments?

Yep gittin er dun now so soon we will see the good news.



What motivation could you possibly have other than a religious one?

A religious is to further the cause of a group.

I only want to further the cause of 1 entity who loves you.
 
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Chalnoth

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A religious is to further the cause of a group.

I only want to further the cause of 1 entity who loves you.
There is no evidence whatsoever of this entity you claim exists. All we see is the group of which you are a member, whose cause you are attempting to further. Ergo, by your own definition (which, I might add, isn't a good one in the least), you are a member of a religion.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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A religious is to further the cause of a group.
Then virtually every single group is a religion. Congratulations on rendering the word useless.

I only want to further the cause of 1 entity who loves you.
As Chalnoth said, all we see is a group of people claiming that this loving entity exists. We also see Muslims, Hindus, and, yes, Wiccans. What makes yours any different?
 
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