Concerning Adam and Jesus

[KCDAD]

Nice claim.

Fortunately, KC, your sarcasm has nothing to do with the Gospel either. You might be a 'superior human being' by cutting that.

Yes, and either of you have backing to these claims?

Jesus was quite sarcastic in his dealings with the Pharisees... it is in the Gospels.

Backing to which claims, that the story of Adam and Eve is not the truth but has truth in it?
1) Mankind is older than 6000 years. (see Archeology, Anthropology, History)
2) Mankind originated in Africa, not the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia (Same fields of study)
3) "adam" in Hebrew is not a personal name but the word that is the equivalent to English's "mankind". (ANY Hebrew dictionary)
4) The only organic matter found in the dust or dirt is from living creatures that have died and decomposed, or shed hair, skin, or waste material. It would impossible, or the greatest feat of alchemy ever to create a living creature from inorganic material. (Microbiology, Anatomy, Biology)
5) Serpents don't have the ability to speak. They never have and not in a million years ever will. Harry Potter, notwithstanding. (Zoology, Herpetology)
6) If "light" is meant in Genesis to electromagnetic radiation, from what source is this light coming from? The Sun and stars are not created until after there is a separation of light and dark, and the calling of the light day and darkness night. (Genesis 1: 3-5, 14)

As far as there being truth in this story...
1) Mankind has been "exiled" or driven from an intimate relationship with both the Earth and its creator.
2) Life is a struggle to survive in a hostile environment
3) The relationship between man a woman is one of interdependence and partnership.
4) Life seems to have evolved from lesser forms into higher forms... plants, animals, humans...
5) I believe the number cause of human "evil" is the sense of guilt and shame we live with and in response, we behave in all sorts of cruel and selfish ways.
6) The ultimate goal in life is to return to this garden of Eden ("delight" in Hebrew) and away from the struggles and disappointments of life, where we will once again walk in garden with our Creator.

 

[CShephard53]

Jesus was quite sarcastic in his dealings with the Pharisees... it is in the Gospels.

Backing to which claims, that the story of Adam and Eve is not the truth but has truth in it?
1) Mankind is older than 6000 years. (see Archeology, Anthropology, History)
2) Mankind originated in Africa, not the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia (Same fields of study)
3) "adam" in Hebrew is not a personal name but the word that is the equivalent to English's "mankind". (ANY Hebrew dictionary)
4) The only organic matter found in the dust or dirt is from living creatures that have died and decomposed, or shed hair, skin, or waste material. It would impossible, or the greatest feat of alchemy ever to create a living creature from inorganic material. (Microbiology, Anatomy, Biology)
5) Serpents don't have the ability to speak. They never have and not in a million years ever will. Harry Potter, notwithstanding. (Zoology, Herpetology)
6) If "light" is meant in Genesis to electromagnetic radiation, from what source is this light coming from? The Sun and stars are not created until after there is a separation of light and dark, and the calling of the light day and darkness night. (Genesis 1: 3-5, 14)

As far as there being truth in this story...
1) Mankind has been "exiled" or driven from an intimate relationship with both the Earth and its creator.
2) Life is a struggle to survive in a hostile environment
3) The relationship between man a woman is one of interdependence and partnership.
4) Life seems to have evolved from lesser forms into higher forms... plants, animals, humans...
5) I believe the number cause of human "evil" is the sense of guilt and shame we live with and in response, we behave in all sorts of cruel and selfish ways.
6) The ultimate goal in life is to return to this garden of Eden ("delight" in Hebrew) and away from the struggles and disappointments of life, where we will once again walk in garden with our Creator.

More claims. Nice. How are any of those things legally proven (or proven beyond reasonable doubt)? Where?

Oh, and where is Jesus sarcastic? Show us, don't simply make claims...

 

[KCDAD]

More claims. Nice. How are any of those things legally proven (or proven beyond reasonable doubt)? Where?

Oh, and where is Jesus sarcastic? Show us, don't simply make claims...

Matt 23:27-29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matt 6:5 \When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

You don't think that is sarcastic? Whitewashed tombs. They love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners.
synonyms sarcastic, satiric, ironic, sardonic mean marked by bitterness and a power or will to cut or sting. sarcastic implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding, taunting, or ridiculing <a critic known for his sarcastic remarks>. satiric implies that the intent of the ridiculing is censure and reprobation <a satiric look at contemporary society>. ironic implies an attempt to be amusing or provocative by saying usually the opposite of what is meant <made the ironic observation that the government could always be trusted>. sardonic implies scorn, mockery, or derision that is manifested by either verbal or facial expression <surveyed the scene with a sardonic smile>.

LEGALLY PROVEN????? Oh you are so funny!
I have the vast array of knowledge and human cognitive development on my side.. what have you got... 3000 year old superstitions?

Why don't you disprove just one of those "claims"?

 

[CShephard53]

I have the vast array of knowledge and human cognitive development on my side.. what have you got... 3000 year old superstitions?

Why don't you disprove just one of those "claims"?

It is not my job or duty to disprove your claims it is your duty to back them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LEGALLY PROVEN????? Oh you are so funny!
I have the vast array of knowledge and human cognitive development on my side.. what have you got... 3000 year old superstitions?

That is great to hear. The Hebrews have Infinite knowledge that not even your feeble "carnal" mind can comprehend. And yes, it is even difficult for me to comrehend the wonders of YHWH's Words in the Bible, but what a BOOK!!!!!

Genesis 5:5 And they are becoming all of days of Adam which he lives, nine hundreds year and-thirty year and he is dying [1 corin 15:22].

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as In The Adam all are Dying, so also In The Christ all shall be being made Alive.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

 

[KCDAD]

It is not my job or duty to disprove your claims it is your duty to back them.

Duty? Or did you mean doody?

Why don't you quit reporting these posts and just respond to them?

I can't back them with the "legal proof" you think you would be satisfied with. There is no standard of proof you would be satisfied with. So make it simple for all of us reading this thread.

Disprove one of my unfounded, unsupportable, irrational, claims.

 

[KCDAD]

That is great to hear. The Hebrews have Infinite knowledge that not even your feeble "carnal" mind can comprehend. And yes, it is even difficult for me to comrehend the wonders of YHWH's Words in the Bible, but what a BOOK!!!!!

Genesis 5:5 And they are becoming all of days of Adam which he lives, nine hundreds year and-thirty year and he is dying [1 corin 15:22].

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as In The Adam all are Dying, so also In The Christ all shall be being made Alive.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

The Hebrews have infinite knowledge? I am sure you didn't mean to write that. What DID you mean to write?

 

[CShephard53]

Duty? Or did you mean doody?

Why don't you quit reporting these posts and just respond to them?

I can't back them with the "legal proof" you think you would be satisfied with. There is no standard of proof you would be satisfied with. So make it simple for all of us reading this thread.

Disprove one of my unfounded, unsupportable, irrational, claims.

There's such thing as burden of proof. You have the duty to back the claims you make, or they are rejected. I didn't make any without backing it on this thread.

 

[KCDAD]

There's such thing as burden of proof. You have the duty to back the claims you make, or they are rejected. I didn't make any without backing it on this thread.

You have the cart pulling the horse. Those that claim the Bible is inerrant have made the initial claim. It is up to them to prove their unfounded and unsupported claim.
All I have to do is provide one example of an error... (and I have provided several) ... to prove it is not inerrant.
I have listed copy errors, mistranslations, additions and omissions, contradictory passages describing the same supposedly historical events, impossible physical descriptions of reality, factually false accounts of scientific or natural events, gross exaggerations, and just plain silly nonsense.
Instead of addressing the metaphorical spiritual meaning in these passages, you fundamentalists staunchly defend their inerrant, literal interpretation. Instead of trying to understand the cultural idioms and allusions in these peculiarly Middle Eastern stories, you imply that these were spoken by God word for word in the "original Greek" for us Americans to read and understand in the year 2007.

 

[KCDAD]

My claim: Donkeys and serpents can not talk. Science, Zoology, Anatomy, Physiology, Herpetology and Biology agree with me.

Prove me wrong.

 

[CShephard53]

You have the cart pulling the horse. Those that claim the Bible is inerrant have made the initial claim. It is up to them to prove their unfounded and unsupported claim.
All I have to do is provide one example of an error... (and I have provided several) ... to prove it is not inerrant.
I have listed copy errors, mistranslations, additions and omissions, contradictory passages describing the same supposedly historical events, impossible physical descriptions of reality, factually false accounts of scientific or natural events, gross exaggerations, and just plain silly nonsense.
Instead of addressing the metaphorical spiritual meaning in these passages, you fundamentalists staunchly defend their inerrant, literal interpretation. Instead of trying to understand the cultural idioms and allusions in these peculiarly Middle Eastern stories, you imply that these were spoken by God word for word in the "original Greek" for us Americans to read and understand in the year 2007.

You have not referenced any examples. Not on this thread. You've listed claims from your point of view.

 

[Ormly]

Doncha think it time to get off my thread and discuss your differences elseware? ..

 

[KCDAD]

You have not referenced any examples. Not on this thread. You've listed claims from your point of view.

Examples...
1) Mankind is older than 6000 years. (see Archeology, Anthropology, History) Count out the genealogy of the generations of Adam to Jesus.
2) Mankind originated in Africa, not the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia (Same fields of study)Genesis describes the location of the Garden of Eden.
3) "adam" in Hebrew is not a personal name but the word that is the equivalent to English's "mankind". (ANY Hebrew dictionary)
4) The only organic matter found in the dust or dirt is from living creatures that have died and decomposed, or shed hair, skin, or waste material. It would impossible, or the greatest feat of alchemy ever to create a living creature from inorganic material. (Microbiology, Anatomy, Biology) Genesis claims God made from out of the dust.
5) Serpents don't have the ability to speak. They never have and not in a million years ever will. Harry Potter, notwithstanding. (Zoology, Herpetology) Genesis says the serpent spoke to Eve.
6) If "light" is meant in Genesis to electromagnetic radiation, from what source is this light coming from? The Sun and stars are not created until after there is a separation of light and dark, and the calling of the light day and darkness night. (Genesis 1: 3-5, 14)

Ok, these aren't examples of inaccuracies, errors, or metaphorical morality plays in the Biblical text... what are they?

BTW, you responded once to this post already... how can you claim I didn't post these examples.

 

[KCDAD]

Jamiel

You wrote...

It sounds like you have the right approach to reading the Bible. It is quite clear when Christ spoke in parables (parallels) because He told us that He did. It was his favorite figure of speech. And He also liked metaphor. It generally is not hard to tell when He means something literally either. Occasionally it is difficult to tell if He means something literally. Take the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16. I always wonder about whether there was a literal Lazarus. He lived a pretty rough life for someone God loved.

Of course, Lazarus is not a real person. In Mid Eastern traditions, Lazarus is the "everyman" butt of all jokes and fall guy in all stories. We are not taught that because it adds real meaning to the story, instead of having someone think it might be a true story. (Lazarus in Hebrew: Eleazar, One God has helped)

 

[greatnut]

Of course, Lazarus is not a real person. In Mid Eastern traditions, Lazarus is the "everyman" butt of all jokes and fall guy in all stories. We are not taught that because it adds real meaning to the story, instead of having someone think it might be a true story. (Lazarus in Hebrew: Eleazar, One God has helped)

Hi KC

You wrote...
>>Of course, Lazarus is not a real person. In Mid Eastern traditions, Lazarus is the "everyman" butt of all jokes and fall guy in all stories. We are not taught that because it adds real meaning to the story, instead of having someone think it might be a true story.<<

Fascinating, if true.

I liked your " As far as there being truth in this story...". I think there is a lot of value in what you said. But here is my best shot at trying to show you how the literal meaning makes sense to me.

1) Mankind is older than 6000 years. (see Archeology, Anthropology, History)

Ask yourself, why don't civilizations date back much further than 6000 years? Think of your oldest civilisations - Egypt, Babylon. None of them go back 20000 years.
2) Mankind originated in Africa, not the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia (Same fields of study)
The flood destroyed the evidence of where mankind originated. It's only some guy on National Geographic studying genetics or something like that who says it originated in Africa. I could walk from the ME to Africa in a week. So, let's not quibble. Believe God, or National Geographic "expert"???

3) "adam" in Hebrew is not a personal name but the word that is the equivalent to English's "mankind". (ANY Hebrew dictionary)

Adam DOES mean mankind, because Adam was the father of mankind. Thus Adam means both.
4) The only organic matter found in the dust or dirt is from living creatures that have died and decomposed, or shed hair, skin, or waste material. It would impossible, or the greatest feat of alchemy ever to create a living creature from inorganic material. (Microbiology, Anatomy, Biology)

"Dust of the ground" is a way of explaining "atoms and molecules" the stuff from which all stuff is made.

5) Serpents don't have the ability to speak. They never have and not in a million years ever will. Harry Potter, notwithstanding. (Zoology, Herpetology)

Satan and demons do. See the Bible.
6) If "light" is meant in Genesis to electromagnetic radiation, from what source is this light coming from? The Sun and stars are not created until after there is a separation of light and dark, and the calling of the light day and darkness night. (Genesis 1: 3-5, 14)

I believe in the Gap theory. In the beginning (13.5 billion years ago) God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth BECAME without form and void. Then, 6000 years ago, God started to clear the darkness which had enveloped the earth like a nuclear winter. So the light was there already, but could not reach the earth - which is the perspective from which the dialogue is described. "The spirit of God hovered over the surface of the deep"

 

[KCDAD]

Mankind is older than civilization. Although you don't have civilization without mankind, mankind has existed long before civilization (when writing and record keeping began... are you arguing Adam and Eve were created knowing language and writing skills?)

You can not walk from Mesapotamia to Kenya in week.

adam is not capitalized except in translation.

The why use the word dust and not matter or stuff? Dust is a specific word with a specific meaning.

So we just forget about the "days" part of Genesis?

 

[CShephard53]

1) Mankind is older than 6000 years. (see Archeology, Anthropology, History) Count out the genealogy of the generations of Adam to Jesus.

Unprovable by radiometric dating, which only dates in thousands, not millions or billions of years.

2) Mankind originated in Africa, not the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia (Same fields of study)Genesis describes the location of the Garden of Eden.

Evidence?

3) "adam" in Hebrew is not a personal name but the word that is the equivalent to English's "mankind". (ANY Hebrew dictionary)

Your point?

4) The only organic matter found in the dust or dirt is from living creatures that have died and decomposed, or shed hair, skin, or waste material. It would impossible, or the greatest feat of alchemy ever to create a living creature from inorganic material. (Microbiology, Anatomy, Biology) Genesis claims God made from out of the dust.

The Bible also describes God as all powerful (but limited by God's will and timing, of course). Where is the contradiction, except with science? And I thought science was about observations? It's been observed that the things you claim can't happen, did. It's been recorded.

5) Serpents don't have the ability to speak. They never have and not in a million years ever will. Harry Potter, notwithstanding. (Zoology, Herpetology) Genesis says the serpent spoke to Eve.

How do you know what kind of serpent it is? You've got valid testimony going against what you claim. Saying it contradicts science doesn't show anything.

6) If "light" is meant in Genesis to electromagnetic radiation, from what source is this light coming from? The Sun and stars are not created until after there is a separation of light and dark, and the calling of the light day and darkness night. (Genesis 1: 3-5, 14)

The Glory of the Lord was on Moses at one point, and he was described as having a 'bright face', depending on translation (shone, whatever).

Ok, these aren't examples of inaccuracies, errors, or metaphorical morality plays in the Biblical text... what are they?

BTW, you responded once to this post already... how can you claim I didn't post these examples.

BTW, you listed branches of science, not laws or observations, and you still haven't. You also never REFERENCED examples until this point- and even then not completely.

 

[Tonks]

Thread closed at OP's request.