No Physical Difference Between the Geocentric Model and the Modern Heliocentric View

[ChordatesLegacy]

All good stuff: but if the Earth was at the centre of the solar system, then why does every comet known to man orbit the sun.

Also we, that is our solar system orbit around the centre of our galaxy, for this to be the other way round, that is the galaxy is orbiting the earth, every law of physics would have to be broken.

I think what we have here is mans delusions of grander, I have an imagination, therefore I am the centre of the universe.

Geocentricism is just the ignorance of people who cannot deal with their own insignificance.

 

[[serious]]

you are here:

 

[Loudmouth]

The bible tells me that the sun goes around the earth, and that the earth doesn't move.

So?

Aesop's Fables have talking animals. Do we throw out Aesop's Fables because turtles and hares don't talk?

Stellar Parallax works because the stars actually move forward and back.

Creationism really has poisoned your mind. It's not too late, Morton's Demon can still be exorcised.

In the interest of continuing this discussion, what force is moving these stars? What evidence do you have for this force?

 

[RichardT]

"Dr. Nieto raises some observational challenges for geocentric cosmology, beginning with the parallax effect. There are two schools of thought among geocentrists as to how parallax arises (and if the quantum mechanicists can have two schools of thought, why not the geocentrists?). The “pure” form of geocentricity centers the stars on the earth, and describes the resulting annual stellar shifts by placing the Earth at one sink of a conformal mapping. This procedure has been worked out in rigorous detail for the two-dimensional case by James Hanson, and agrees with the observed phenomena. (This paper regards this model as ”pure” inasmuch as it conforms to the original cosmology of Tycho Brahe without modification.) The “modified Tychonic model” centers the stars on the Sun, so that the stars participate in the Sun's annual migration, with the observed parallax being directly predicted by the subsequent geometry. This second model would satisfy the requirements that any consistent relativist would impose on a legitimate geocentric frame of reference, and may well even have direct and indirect Biblical support."

I am of the Modified Tycho Brahe school of Geocentricity. I would like to see this subsequent geometry though, I'm wondering where I can find it.

 

[Loudmouth]

"Dr. Nieto raises some observational challenges for geocentric cosmology, beginning with the parallax effect. There are two schools of thought among geocentrists as to how parallax arises (and if the quantum mechanicists can have two schools of thought, why not the geocentrists?). The “pure” form of geocentricity centers the stars on the earth, and describes the resulting annual stellar shifts by placing the Earth at one sink of a conformal mapping. This procedure has been worked out in rigorous detail for the two-dimensional case by James Hanson, and agrees with the observed phenomena. (This paper regards this model as ”pure” inasmuch as it conforms to the original cosmology of Tycho Brahe without modification.)

How the heck does this work?

The “modified Tychonic model” centers the stars on the Sun, so that the stars participate in the Sun's annual migration, with the observed parallax being directly predicted by the subsequent geometry. This second model would satisfy the requirements that any consistent relativist would impose on a legitimate geocentric frame of reference, and may well even have direct and indirect Biblical support."

What is moving the entire universe?

You might as well claim that your car moves the entire earth about you while you remain motionless.

Go back to my simple experiment using your thumb, eyes, and a distant backdrop. Nothing is moving your thumb. No force, nothing. The effect is caused by different angles of observation. That's it.

Your system requires a force that moves an entire universe while keeping the Earth motionless. This is absurd to the nth degree.

 

[LeeC]

Gee. Who would have thought.

Cheer up, I am sure they are doing better than the PASTING England will get in the rugby on the weekend.

England won!

WOW - now this is something I really do not believe! There must be a God? And He plays cricket!

You're right about the rugby though I'm sure.

Oops... this is Off-topic - sport?

Sorry.

Lee

 

[RichardT]

What is moving the entire universe?

Ether

Go back to my simple experiment using your thumb, eyes, and a distant backdrop. Nothing is moving your thumb. No force, nothing. The effect is caused by different angles of observation. That's it.

It works as long as the stars are focused on the sun.

Your system requires a force that moves an entire universe while keeping the Earth motionless.

You mean to tell me that you didn't understand this from the beginning? Of course this is how my system works!

This is absurd to the nth degree.

Geocentricity works! It only seems to be absurd because it seems to be more complicated. I will try to rationalize why I believe in the Plenum ether though, I will try to work it with relativity.

"According to the general theory of relativity, space without ether is unthinkable."

-- Albert Einstein

 

[LeeC]

How the heck does this work?

God did it!

What is moving the entire universe?

God!

You might as well claim that your car moves the entire earth about you while you remain motionless.

God can do that as well!

My car is red – this makes different I think.

Go back to my simple experiment using your thumb, eyes, and a distant backdrop.

Experiment?

What do you mean?

I do not understand this "experiment" of which you talk

Besides, if the results do not match my original assumption that God did it all - then I have to ignore the results of ANY and ALL experiments.

You should know this?

Nothing is moving your thumb. No force, nothing. The effect is caused by different angles of observation. That's it.

You confuse your basic optics with your thumb to that of the universe.

Oh course the physics is different up there in space. It probably says so in the bible somewhere.

Your system requires a force that moves an entire universe while keeping the Earth motionless. This is absurd to the nth degree.

God can do the absurd - have you not read the bible?


Lee

 

[LeeC]

Ether

And what is this then?

How does it move the whole universe, but leave the Earth stationary?

Yup! All motion is relative.

Don't you mean Quantum?

They are both just words to you.

You mean to tell me that you didn't understand this from the beginning? Of course this is how my system works!

It does not work - you are just ignoring the evidence and arguments against it.

Just like you have ignored my previous posts against it - just look back a little bit - and you will see I have given you a few questions to answer. If you cannot answer them, your model has failed.

The simple answer is correct – the Earth orbits the sun.

Geocentricity works!

No it doesn't. You have NO mechanism for it, it breaks known physics. Also, you have to be selected in what you observe.

Basically, you have to ignore the evidence against it – and made up some complex story to answer “some” of the problems (but you cannot explain your story at all)

It only seems to be absurd because it is more complicated.

At last - you say something that is right.

It is absurd.

Not only is it more complicated, it does not answer ALL the experimental results and, I repeat, you have NO mechanism for it. (Apart from God did it - but you have no evidence for Him)

I will not repeat my questions here, just go back a few posts from me where I ask you some questions… please answer them my friend.

Someone mentioned Morton’s Demon. They are right – you really do have it bad my friend.

We are here to help you… please read the link.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/mortonsdemon.htm


The follow articles are all from a Christian (Glenn R. Morton). So you can be a theist and throw anyway the baggage you have to carry around.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/search.htm

Have a read of some – and tell me what you think?

Lee

 

[Gracchus]

What is moving the entire universe?

Ether

Are we to take it you are addicted to narcotic gasses?

You might as well claim that your car moves the entire earth about you while you remain motionless

.
Yup! All motion is relative.

But in accelerating systems, we must explain the forces that cause the acceleration. Gravity explains the heliocentric solar system. Gravity explains the suns orbit around the center of the galaxy. Gravity can be formulated in a mathematical law: F = G * m(1) * m(2) / d^2, where F is the gravitational force between any two masses m(1) and m(2) , d^2 is the square of the distance between them, and G is the gravitational constant. I repeat, this simple law explains astronomical motion we observe in a heliocentric system. What is the formulation of the law that explains the observed motions of a geocentric solar system? And what force would be necessary to swing the entire galaxy, and a hundred billion others, around the Earth?

 

[TheOutsider]

Experiment?

What do you mean?

I do not understand this "experiment" of which you talk

Besides, if the results do not match my original assumption that God did it all - then I have to ignore the results of ANY and ALL experiments.

You should know this?

Lee

LOL. Careful or RichardT will call you a member of the Thought Police and then put you on ignore.

 

[lemmings]

The Earth’s ‘axis’ is tilted by 23.45°. Throughout the course of a half year the Sun will therefore move 46.9° along our longitude. A stationary Earth requires that this movement be made by the Sun. The sun maintains a roughly constant distance from the Earth so it will travel in a circular arc.
46.9/360=.13 , pi*150,000,000km = 471,000,000km , 471,000,000km*.13=61,000,000km
The sun therefore moves 122,000,000km over the course of the year.

What gives the sun the ability to move perpendicular to its otherwise circular orbit around the Earth? Neither communication satellites nor the moon do anything like this.

 

[lemmings]

It works as long as the stars are focused on the sun.

Over the course of a year, the sun moves along our longitude lines. Stellar parallax is nearly perpendicular to this form of movement as the stars primarily move along our latitude lines. The only relationship that the two would have is that they each operate on the same 365.24 day long cycle.

 

[lemmings]

"According to the general theory of relativity, space without ether is unthinkable."

-- Albert Einstein

"Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense." (Albert Einstein, Leiden Lecture, 1920)

You really need to put quotes in their context.

 

[RichardT]

"Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense." (Albert Einstein, Leiden Lecture, 1920)

OK. The sense is still there.

 

[RichardT]

The Earth’s ‘axis’ is tilted by 23.45°. Throughout the course of a half year the Sun will therefore move 46.9° along our longitude. A stationary Earth requires that this movement be made by the Sun.

Yes.

The sun maintains a roughly constant distance from the Earth so it will travel in a circular arc.
46.9/360=.13 , pi*150,000,000km = 471,000,000km , 471,000,000km*.13=61,000,000km
The sun therefore moves 122,000,000km over the course of the year.

The ether medium carries the sun this way.

What gives the sun the ability to move perpendicular to its otherwise circular orbit around the Earth? Neither communication satellites nor the moon do anything like this.

Irrelevant.

 

[RichardT]

Over the course of a year, the sun moves along our longitude lines. Stellar parallax is nearly perpendicular to this form of movement as the stars primarily move along our latitude lines. The only relationship that the two would have is that they each operate on the same 365.24 day long cycle.

If the sun were to be carried around the earth, you can visualize how stellar parallax would work in the system. I feel stupid for not seeing it before.

 

[lemmings]

The ether medium carries the sun this way....Irrelevant.

You say that Geocentricism is science and real, you need to provide an explanation for this sooner or later then. It should be much sooner than later as you say that it already works.

 

[lemmings]

If the sun were to be carried around the earth, you can visualize how stellar parallax would work in the system. I feel stupid for not seeing it before.

If stellar parallax were the result of the sun going around the stationary Earth then it would take place over the course of a day not a year. Fail!

 

[RichardT]

Are we to take it you are addicted to narcotic gasses?



But in accelerating systems, we must explain the forces that cause the acceleration. Gravity explains the heliocentric solar system. Gravity explains the suns orbit around the center of the galaxy. Gravity can be formulated in a mathematical law: F = G * m(1) * m(2) / d^2, where F is the gravitational force between any two masses m(1) and m(2) , d^2 is the square of the distance between them, and G is the gravitational constant. I repeat, this simple law explains astronomical motion we observe in a heliocentric system. What is the formulation of the law that explains the observed motions of a geocentric solar system? And what force would be necessary to swing the entire galaxy, and a hundred billion others, around the Earth?

I do believe in gravity, it gives me the relative motions of the universe.

I have a bit of a suspicion that this quote is actually from 1883 and predates special/general relativity and all modern understanding of the interplay of masses, motion and forces.

My first clue is that you are "quoting Mach" from 1921. Unless your geocentric model allows for communication with people that have been dead for five years, I doubt Mach said that in 1921.

Ernst Mach (1838-1916) RIP. Mach was even dead before Einstein published "The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity".

My second clue is that "Die Mechanik in ihrer Entwicklung historisch-kritisch dargestellt" has been reprinted numerous times including in 1921 with the first edition being in 1883.

Sorry, that wasn't the first edition of it. His writing isn't actually form 1921.

Precession!!! I'm glad you raised that. Due to the Earth's wobble - the star's position from the Earth's view has changed over time - recorded in history.
(The Earth goes through one complete precession cycle in a period of approximately 25,800 years)

The ether has some to and fro motion.

The angle of the Earth does indeed give us the seasons… (This is why when the North is in winter, the south is summer) and due to the elliptical orbit we also have another north/south divided because when the south is in summer, the Earth is closest to the sun (I think it is this way round)

I wonder how a stationary, geocentric Earther would answer this?