Self-existence and the nature of God

[Idea]

1 Timothy 4:1 NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy

Here are the two choices:

1. God did not create everything, did not create evil – Even though there is a part of us He did not create, He is a Loving, merciful, just God. He wants to adopt us, will do everything in His power save take away our free agency to refine us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2. God created everything, including us, including evil. He purposely created us imperfectly that we would suffer. He created Satan, He created Hell.

Which scenario sounds like lies in hypocrisy, lies, like doctrines of devils?

Glaudies…
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[gluadys]

Glaudies…[/FONT]
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
[/FONT][/SIZE]

As I said, I don't deal well with oblique answers. Is this a "yes", a "no", an "I don't know" or an "I refuse to answer the question on the grounds it may incriminate me."?

btw, I don't take too well to arrogance either.

 

[Idea]

You are going to make me say it.

Is evil self-existent and eternal?

yes

2 Corinthians 4:18
things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Mark 9:43 … hell, the fire that never shall be quenched:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Not a pleasant subject to dwell on, yet there it is… Might I close with the words of Paul though…

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[theFijian]

You are going to make me say it.

Is evil self-existent and eternal?

yes

Why was that so hard to say? Anything to do with it being completely unbiblical?

 

[gluadys]

You are going to make me say it.

Is evil self-existent and eternal?

yes

Any reason I shouldn't? Wasn't it really dishonest and insulting of you to imply I was too much a child to understand such a deep mystery?

This, of course, is the Zoroastrian position. A dualist position. The conflict between good and evil has always been and will always be.

Christians are monotheists. We believe evil is not eternal, can and will be overcome. Indeed, it has been overcome in Christ.

Here is another question for you.

Ought we to stand against evil? If so, why?

 

[shernren]

Ought we to stand against evil? If so, why?

Yes - because you'll get deep-vein thrombosis if you sit in the same position for too long. *stretches*

 

[Idea]

Ought we to stand against evil?

yes

If so, why?

We cannot remove evil from the universe, (It would be a sin to take away the free agency of others) but we can - through the atonement - remove it from ourselves.

OK - I have answered some of your questions - you have not answered any of mine.

Do you believe God created evil? yes or no
Do you believe God created some to go to hell?
Do you believe God created man imperfectly?

 

[theFijian]

Ought we to stand against evil?

yes

If so, why?

Yeah, so why would we try to stand against it? If it is self-existant not even God can defeat it.

We cannot remove evil from the universe, (It would be a sin to take away the free agency of others) but we can - through the atonement - remove it from ourselves.

We don't remove anything from ourselves, God applies Christ's atoning work to us.

Until you understand these things then there would be no point in answering your questions.

 

[Idea]

I agree - we cannot remove it from ourselves - we choose to allow God to remove it from us or not.

 

[Idea]

God is powerful enough to defeat it - but the defeat would require that He take away free agency, and He will not do this. It all comes back to free agency - the ability to think, to choose.

 

[theFijian]

Something which is self-existant cannot be un-existed since it's existence is within itself, therefore it cannot be defeated, by God or anybody else.

 

[gluadys]

Ought we to stand against evil?

yes

If so, why?

We cannot remove evil from the universe, (It would be a sin to take away the free agency of others) but we can - through the atonement - remove it from ourselves.

And why should we care about removing it (or allowing it to be removed) from ourselves, since evil will still be around anyway?

Do you believe God created evil? yes or no

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Isaiah 45:7 KJV

Do you believe God created some to go to hell?

By "hell" do you mean Sheol, Hades, Tartarus or Gehenna or the lake of fire? We tend in English to translate all these concepts as "hell", but they have different implications and the answer to your question depends on which scriptural term you are actually referring to.

Do you believe God created man imperfectly?

Define "imperfectly". Do you mean physically imperfect? morally? spiritually? Some combination of these? What would the symptoms of imperfection be?

I do believe that humanity, like all aspects of God's creation, was good. Whether that implies perfection depends on the nature of perfection.

 

[Idea]

Will everyone be saved in Heaven?
And even if you think everyone will be - why make us struggle in pain here?
Not just allowing evil - but creating it...

sorry, God did not create evil. Satan would hide the truth and have us believe that God is the creator of evil.

Why care about removing it from ourselves? I enjoy the free agency God gives me, and do not want to be Satan's prisoner.

Free agency - we chose to come to earth, we were not forcably created. Part of us was not created, but mercifully adopted. I believe in a God of Love.

 

[Idea]

Something which is self-existant cannot be un-existed since it's existence is within itself, therefore it cannot be defeated, by God or anybody else.

Something which is self-existant cannot be un-existed since it's existence is within itself, therefore it cannot be defeated, by God or anybody else.

Perhaps you are right.
Can God create a rock that He cannot move?
Some things are impossible. If it were possible to destroy evil, I think He would have done it by now...

 

[Idea]

OK – you guys got me thinking
Evil cannot be destroyed, but we can change what form it takes.
Evil can be a physical reality, or nothing more than an intangible entity.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.- Revelation 21:4

So, evil will cease to be a physical reality.

Perhaps there will be some left-over entity, but it will not be allowed to take physical form, therefore, it will be nothing more than an intangible entity – nothing more than an abstract thought, if even that - with no power to act or inflict pain.

So in summary:
God did not create evil, it is self-existent, as are we. We are like clay that can be molded… the clay is not a very beautiful thing… nevertheless, God loved us, so He sent His Son. He prepared a way for us to learn the lessons of life. In a premortal existence, we chose to follow this plan, were grateful for the opportunity to learn and become like Him – we wanted to be more than just “self” existent.

It is a painful process,
but in the end,
all tears will be wiped away,
we will be humble
we will deeply appreciate all that is good
we will Love Him
we will Love one another
We will have a Savior
We will have a God
We will have found a selfless existence.

Is that a happy ending?

 

[theFijian]

Perhaps you are right.
Can God create a rock that He cannot move?

Exactly, the law of non-contradiction. Something which is self-existant couldn't 'not exist'.

Some things are impossible he has not done so. If it were possible to destroy evil, I think He would have done it by now...

No that's not the reason. A time has been appointed, and not until then.

 

[theFijian]

OK – you guys got me thinking
Evil cannot be destroyed,

No, try again.

but we can change what form it takes.

How are we supposed to do such a thing?

And once more, we are not self-existant!

 

[gluadys]

Will everyone be saved in Heaven?
And even if you think everyone will be - why make us struggle in pain here?
Not just allowing evil - but creating it...

Red herring. Can we stick to the current topics without dragging in more? I would be glad to discuss this later, after dealing with the questions I raised in post 32.

sorry, God did not create evil. Satan would hide the truth and have us believe that God is the creator of evil.

So, what do you make of Isaiah 45: 7? Or do you not consider scripture to be authoritative?

Why care about removing it from ourselves? I enjoy the free agency God gives me, and do not want to be Satan's prisoner.

Free agency is why we turn our backs on God in the first place. Not that we have to, but we can and we do. A lot of people prefer the freedom to live in sin to the freedom to live in righteousness. If evil is co-eternal with God what is wrong with them making that choice?

Free agency - we chose to come to earth, we were not forcably created. Part of us was not created, but mercifully adopted. I believe in a God of Love.

Well, I don't want to go off on another tangent, yet, so I'll hold this idea in reserve to comment on another time.

You asked me three questions. For two of them, I asked for clarification so that I could give an appropriate answer.

Are you going to give me those clarifications or are you no longer interested in having a reply to your questions?

 

[gluadys]

OK – you guys got me thinking
Evil cannot be destroyed, but we can change what form it takes.
Evil can be a physical reality, or nothing more than an intangible entity.

I fail to see the relevance. What would make intangible evil any less of a problem than physical evil? Why would it cause any fewer tears?

Sin/evil is primarily a spiritual, not a physical problem. So taking the physicality out of evil is just a bandaid. It doesn't deal with the root of the problem.

God did not create evil, it is self-existent, as are we.

I disagree, in both cases. Though for different reasons. We are not self-existent since we are created and sustained in being by the love and power of God.

Evil is not really an existent at all. It is alienation from God, the source of being. Evil, is, if anything, the lack of being. It is a form of death.

When we humans choose autonomy rather than dependence on God we think we are cutting ourselves out a piece of freedom. But the cost of that "freedom" is to lose hold on what gives us life and to settle for something less than the life for which we were created. As Paul describes it, sin is "missing the mark" and "falling short of the glory of God."

It is that falling short that constitutes "evil". Evil is the emptiness between what we can be in ourselves and what we were created to be in communion with our Creator.

 

[gluadys]

In a premortal existence, we chose to follow this plan, were grateful for the opportunity to learn and become like Him – we wanted to be more than just “self” existent.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Wow! A comment like this shows just how different world-views can be. Not even in inter-faith dialogue have I come across this concept before. I can't respond to it because, for me, it just doesn't compute.