Sin, and what we are held accountable for

[BreadAlone]

I have no issues with the eternal torment scriptures, but as stated you have not and will not find this measure unto a single "named" individual in the entire Bible, nor will you find a single "named" individual threatened with such a thing.

You should understand that if you are HIS, there is MORE going on in the "flesh" than just that person. There is the working of sin indwelling, which is and remains "OF THE DEVIL." On that count I can and will COUNT SINS were they should be scripturally attributed, and NOT count sins against my fellow man, Whom God in Christ came to SAVE.

IF "sins are not counted" against "mankind" they are thusly not counted against Judas.

Judas was "entered" by Satan himself to perform that work which SATAN IN JUDAS was meant by GOD to perform. Jesus knew well in advance that His own familiar friend Judas was going to lift up his heel against Him and was going to have the "entering of Satan" into his flesh, and accounted it so from the scriptures of the O.T. in Psalm 41.

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

In the light of this disclosure, I have NO NEED to "count sin" against Judas who was for Gods Intended Purposes, at that point the PAWN OR SLAVE of Satan.

All of Israel are taught in the O.T. to be "children of God" for examples in Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 (which Jesus also stated to the Pharisees.)

It is very unlikely that "children of God" will be counted as SINNERS, as the connection to God then spawning "sinners" is the inevitable and false conclusion. All mankind were taught by Paul to also be "Gods offspring" in Acts 17:23-29 for example, so again, when we understand "all" of the parties involved in the flesh, it is quite easy to DIVIDE our fellow man from the SLAVE MAKERS and to aquit our fellow man of sin, even while actively engaging the "sinners" who have captured their minds and hearts in Truth.

enjoy!

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wait wait WAAIITT!!

Are we talking about the same thing? You say the children of God will not be held accountable as sinners, and this I COMPLETELY agree with. When I talk about people going to hell, I'm talking about those who are not God's children.

 

[squint]

wait wait WAAIITT!!

Are we talking about the same thing? You say the children of God will not be held accountable as sinners, and this I COMPLETELY agree with. When I talk about people going to hell, I'm talking about those who are not God's children.

Scriptures teach that "unbelievers" are saved, such as in Romans 11, wherein enemies of the Gospel who were (past tense) made enemies are ALL saved as it pertains to Israel.

And of course the citing for all mankind, believer and unbeliever, being Gods offspring is found in the previous citing from Acts 17:23-29.

I would also agree that "believers" have a special understanding here on earth, but that does not allow us to "count sins" against our fellow man. Sins can be quite easily accounted to the "cause" of sin, the devil, while leaving mankind, Gods offspring, quite well intact. We can certainly advise them of slaveship to sin, and the freedom of Gods Love, to them and to all. God is against sin and sinners, and is for mankind. These two are not the same, though they are presently "overlapped" in the flesh. We are to know no man that way.

enjoy!

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[BreadAlone]

It'd be appealing if what you say is true..but it really leaves no reason for being Christian, following God, abstaining from sin, or "be[ing] holy for I, the Lord your God am holy"..

 

[R3quiem]

John 8:23-24
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

 

[BreadAlone]

John 8:23-24
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Good example..

 

[squint]

It'd be appealing if what you say is true..but it really leaves no reason for being Christian, following God, abstaining from sin, or "be[ing] holy for I, the Lord your God am holy"..

Sorry, the logic doesn't follow. The same argument has been used unsuccessfully against Grace.

And if you are saying that without threat people wouldn't follow God, I can only look to Romans 2 wherein it is the love and kindness of God that leads to repentance. (vs. 5) and that same love leads us to live better lives before God. The "just" live by faith and faith works "through" love, not "threats."

 

[squint]

John 8:23-24
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Dying not "knowing" that Jesus took away the sin of the world does not make that work of Jesus ineffective. They simply didn't know that they were divided from sin.

 

[R3quiem]

Dying not "knowing" that Jesus took away the sin of the world does not make that work of Jesus ineffective. They simply didn't know that they were divided from sin.

What do you define as "knowing"?

 

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What do you define as "knowing"?

Here is a knowing we should all have as believers:

2 Corinthians 4:4
-the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

There is not much point in condemning captive slaves.

We are also told this about "who" knows God

1 John 2:
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1 John 4:7
-Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

I'd be quite hard pressed to say that nearly all if not all men have done some right and loved.

 

[R3quiem]

Here is a knowing we should all have as believers:

2 Corinthians 4:4
-the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

There is not much point in condemning captive slaves.

We are also told this about "who" knows God

1 John 2:
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1 John 4:7
-Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

I'd be quite hard pressed to say that nearly all if not all men have done some right and loved.

So under your interpretation, everyone is saved?

 

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So under your interpretation, everyone is saved?

Jesus Is The Saviour of the world. What should I make of that?

 

[R3quiem]

Jesus Is The Saviour of the world. What should I make of that?

Fair enough, but what do you make of all of the somewhat negative things Jesus has said?

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 7:21-13
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Luke 16:22-26
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Mark 9:42-49
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'Everyone will be salted with fire.

What should I make of these?

 

[squint]

Fair enough, but what do you make of all of the somewhat negative things Jesus has said?

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

It would appear to me that those who have found the door that leads to destruction are those who promote the destruction of their fellow man for sins,

Sins are "not counted" against mankind.

Matthew 7:21-13
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Jesus often spoke to evil entities in mankind. He spoke to Satan in both Judas and Peter for example, and Jesus spoke to a veritable army of devils in mankind. Since we know that sin indwells the flesh as a presence Paul called "NO LONGER I" and John the Apostle said "he who commits sin is of the devil" there is just alot more going on in the flesh and minds than "just people." Those spoken to above were obviously believers, and THOSE things that are "no longer I" the presence of the DEVIL in the flesh WILL be told that statement and they will be told that in "believing mankind." We are not exempt from "their workings."

Luke 16:22-26
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

The nature of the "rich man" can be viewed also as the "captor" of that same man, Lazarus. The devil and his messengers ARE heading for the flames without any uncertainty.

Mark 9:42-49
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'Everyone will be salted with fire.

What should I make of these?

Since mankind consists of more than just "mankind alone" we have to look to the other most obvious suspects in these cases. Jesus for example when He spoke to the "children of the devil" did actually speak to the "children of the devil" in the flesh of the Pharisees just as He says He was.

There are slaves of sin, and there are slave masters. One Jesus came to save, the other He didn't.

Paul taught the identical teaching when he said in Romans 9 that there is a vessel of honor and a vessel of destruction in the SAME LUMP. I really try not to mistake one for the other, as BOTH are present.

enjoy!

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[R3quiem]

To me it just seems that you are reading way more into what Jesus said then what he meant. Like, trying to bend the scripture to fit how you want.

My second example- Jesus tells them plainly - I never knew you. He's telling people who were prophesizing and casting out demons (demons can't cast out demons, I would think..) that he doesn't know them.

 

[squint]

To me it just seems that you are reading way more into what Jesus said then what he meant. Like, trying to bend the scripture to fit how you want.

I certainly have no desire to judge my fellow man for sins and even less to "count sins" against them. These things are strictly prohibited by the scriptures and therefore I do not "practice" such things.

And one certainly cannot deny that there are other entities in mankind. Jesus spoke to such and cast them out on nearly every page of the Gospels, so THAT position is far beyond denial and in that light I have no cause to see "just man" being addressed. The eternal damnation of mankind is not presented in the scriptures to a single named person in the Bible. Not a one. Nor is a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

No, it is far more like that sin is OF THE DEVIL just as John the Apostle presented and that THEY, the devil in the flesh will pay the price, and the captives will GO FREE and that Jesus is then The Actual Saviour of the world, and not some miniature saviour who can't seem to get the job done.

My second example- Jesus tells them plainly - I never knew you. He's telling people who were prophesizing and casting out demons (demons can't cast out demons, I would think..) that he doesn't know them.

All mankind are Gods offspring per the scriptures. Those Jesus knows.

Devils of course are quite another story. They know where they're headed and so does Jesus and said as much.

If you read my first post in this thread, you will find an abundance of examples of the separation between mankind and the sin that indwells us all. But of course to come to factual grips with that "personally" and leave off blaming and accusing and counting sins against our fellow man is a working of God in the heart.

I do not and will not condemn those whom God in Christ has COMMANDED us to love. To condemn them makes zero sense.

enjoy!

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[R3quiem]

I'm not into judging people either. People who say certain groups are going to hell are terrible. I hope hell doesn't exist, and I tend to side with annihilationism at best- but there seems to be some scripture that tells otherwise.

Generally, I describe myself mostly as an agnostic, because it certainly seems impossible to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING when it comes to religion. There seems so much contradiction, so much blah...

Most Christians say "God is Love, God loves all of us individually SOOOOO much, more than any person ever could- but if you don't keep his commandments you'll go to hell for all eternity!"

But then rational, kinder, Christians come along and believe that there is no eternal hell, either all people eventually get to heaven or the bad ones just get destroyed, with no or little suffering. I like this view better, but scripture just seems to point otherwise. I'd love it if the argument from this side was stronger, but it just isn't. Even people who are closest to God generally don't seem so loved at all.

 

[Macca]

Most Christians say "God is Love, God loves all of us individually SOOOOO much, more than any person ever could- but if you don't keep his commandments you'll go to hell for all eternity!"

But then rational, kinder, Christians come along and believe that there is no eternal hell, either all people eventually get to heaven or the bad ones just get destroyed, with no or little suffering. I like this view better, but scripture just seems to point otherwise. I'd love it if the argument from this side was stronger, but it just isn't. Even people who are closest to God generally don't seem so loved at all.

Christians who believe that there is no hell are not rational Christians!!!

 

[squint]

I'm not into judging people either. People who say certain groups are going to hell are terrible. I hope hell doesn't exist, and I tend to side with annihilationism at best- but there seems to be some scripture that tells otherwise.

The Lake of fire is for the devil and his messengers. I have no problem with the anti-Christ spirits going to anti-heaven. I however do not believe that God will endlessly torture people in fire, particularly in the light of the disclosures of "the other parties" who are "in" the flesh, whom we "war" against individually. Satan comes immediately to "steal" the Word wherever it is sown. It comes with the territory. An automatic resistor comes to test immediately.

Generally, I describe myself mostly as an agnostic, because it certainly seems impossible to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING when it comes to religion. There seems so much contradiction, so much blah...

I can assure you without any doubt that God is not against loving our fellow man, and in that there is great release of heart and an even greater resistance to those "things" which are not of love. It is quite possible to "love" in the midst of darkness. I know.

Most Christians say "God is Love, God loves all of us individually SOOOOO much, more than any person ever could- but if you don't keep his commandments you'll go to hell for all eternity!"

I blame none of mankind. It is inconceivable to me to say God loves you out of one side of your mouth, and then condemn that same person to fry alive forever if they don't "believe like me." That's just blazing hypocriticalism.

But then rational, kinder, Christians come along and believe that there is no eternal hell, either all people eventually get to heaven or the bad ones just get destroyed, with no or little suffering. I like this view better, but scripture just seems to point otherwise.

I do believe in every eternal torment scripture. Just not for mankind.

I'd love it if the argument form this side was stronger, but it just isn't.

Very few will get past the resistors to Love. But God will not count that against His offspring either. Not all are meant for war with those things and even more simply fall as victims of damnation. The captives of this present life will go FREE because of God in Christ. Many say that God is NO GOOD unless one "activates Him." I simply do not believe that God is that ineffective and can only move in our behalves if we press His buttons like some automaton.

1 Timothy 4:
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.

I have enjoyed your attitude btw. Thanks!

enjoy!

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[R3quiem]

I do believe in every eternal torment scripture. Just not for mankind.

I had a discussion with another guy about that- that all of the scripture related to hell or destruction is all directed towards demons and not towards humans. But then why would it be in the book that humans are supposed to read and understand? If this is a message to us, why would these things that don't concern us be present? To me it seems clear that those scriptures are meant for people, not demons. Let's bring up two of the scripture's again, and look at them in detail.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

In this verse, Jesus says that he will tell them plainly that he never knew them. The people who he is referring to prophesy in his name and drive out demons- and yet supposedly demons can do neither. Demons don't go around prophesying in his name, and they can't cast out of other demons. How could he be referencing demons then, instead of humans?


As for the next verse, with Lazarus and the Rich man, I'll just paste the part that is relevant.

Luke 16:27-31
"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

This example shows that the Rich Man who was suffering was concerned about his five brothers. He asks that they may be warned so they don't end up where he is. But Abraham says that they have Moses and the Prophets to listen to. How could these all not be humans that are being referenced to? Moses and the Prophets came for humans, not for demons. The man in hell is worried about his family, that they might not listen to the prophets and end up where he is. I don't see how at all any of these people in this story can be demons and not humans.

 

[squint]

I had a discussion with another guy about that- that all of the scripture related to hell or destruction is all directed towards demons and not towards humans. But then why would it be in the book that humans are supposed to read and understand?

His Word is Spirit and Life. His Word brings and fosters in us HOPE and His Love. His Word brings us DIVISION from the things we are presently bound with. His Word is FOR mankind. His Word is AGAINST DEVILkind.

God works all things according to His Will and Purposes, and He has laid out many things there to be observed and enjoyed and to be empowered with that understanding.

If this is a message to us, why would these things that don't concern us be present?

The study of "theodicy" is an understanding from the Christian perspective of Gods allowance of evil, i.e. how can a Perfect God allow evil? The Bible has much to say about these "things" and the resistors ARE in mankind, so that is where "they also" will be addressed and resisted in The Word.

To me it seems clear that those scriptures are meant for people, not demons. Let's bring up two of the scripture's again, and look at them in detail.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

In this verse, Jesus says that he will tell them plainly that he never knew them.

That's true ONLY if you say that in their flesh it was only them. That however is simply not true. Not at all. As stated earlier, if you go back to my first post in this thread, you will see how Paul divided himself from the "sin indwelling" his flesh and the evil that was PRESENT with Paul whenever he desired to "do good." Those are simply facts of our present existence from a scriptural perspective. It is therefore pointless to render meanings apart from the reality that we ALL have a "no longer I" sin indwelling presence "with us" in our flesh.

The people who he is referring to prophesy in his name and drive out demons- and yet supposedly demons can do neither.

We were never promised "sinless flesh" and if "sin indwells" therein as "no longer I" and also he who commits sin is 'OF THE DEVIL' then it is quite pointless to render THAT working OUT of the equations of Jesus statements. Obviously those in that scripture DID GOOD, but that which was in them Jesus will deny knowing. I have no need to condemn "christians" who are doing good works:

Luke 9:
48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Demons don't go around prophesying in his name, and they can't cast out of other demons. How could he be referencing demons then, instead of humans?

No one can say they have no sin, and he who commits sin is of the devil. Christians are not exempt from the working of sin in their flesh and when that transpires, it is OF THE DEVIL. No one said that it was "devils" casting out devils.

As for the next verse, with Lazarus and the Rich man, I'll just paste the part that is relevant.

Luke 16:27-31
"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

This example shows that the Rich Man who was suffering was concerned about his five brothers. He asks that they may be warned so they don't end up where he is. But Abraham says that they have Moses and the Prophets to listen to. How could these all not be humans that are being referenced to?

First of all there are several accounts in that scripture thread, and they are PARABLES. To understand a "parable" one has to have studied parables. If you study the connections to the "rich man" you will find that they are owners of our bodies particularly when The Law of Moses comes into play. The Law both arouses and empowers SINS indwelling presence and that PRESENCE is of the DEVIL.

Moses and the Prophets came for humans, not for demons.

Not so. The Law of Moses was always meant to reveal the presence of sin indwelling the Israelites. It culminated in their judgment for that same sin as a nation. The Law was "added" because of "transgressions." The Law divides sin as being IN mankind because the Law is SPIRITUAL and that is what The Law does to lawlessness. It arouses sin and empowers sin SO THAT it's presence is beyond denial.

Jesus said the thought of adultery was the same as doing it in ones heart, so Jesus actually amplified the law in that way. And He did these things that WE as Gods offspring would DIVIDE ourselves from that working of evil. To DIS-identify ourselves from that working and to IDENTIFY us as Gods children.

The man in hell is worried about his family,

It wouldn't matter if that resistor had a horde of resistors in "his family." The devil has CHILDREN too. They were made by God to resist LOVE and that working of them transpires in the flesh.

that they might not listen to the prophets and end up where he is. I don't see how at all any of these people in this story can be demons and not humans.

As stated, it is pointless to understand a parable apart from parable dissections. The wheat and the tare are a good example. They both "grow together" but one is NOT the other. One will be gathered (Lazarus) and one will be burned (the rich man.)

enjoy!

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