The Bible: Symbolic or Literal?

[Dannager]

Everyonce in awhile there is no direct answer, so it is assumed no. But the vast majority recieve either a yes or no directly.

Hahaha, what?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Then perhaps the reasonable course to take would be that Jesus' words weren't properly recorded in this instance.

If you say that, then what is stopping you from saying that the Resurrection wasn't properly recorded, and never really happened?
Faith is believing in and trusting what we can not see. If we have a choice between believing God or our own eyes, we should choose God. If we choose our own perception, our faith would be weakened. So if Jesus said something, I think it's best to just accept it as it is...He doesn't lie and is in control.
God bless

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Every miracle that has been studied has been shown to be natural or fake. The only ones that haven't are the ones we haven't been allowed to study, or the ones that don't lend themselves to study.

Dannager, this is a very unsupported view. Most people who 'study miracles' and 'disprove' them don't believe in miracles in the first place. They disprove them if they see a natural component to them, but this doesn't mean that a miracle didn't happen and that God didn't interfere.

That God does what we ask.

God doesn't do everything that we ask, but if we ask in faith and in accordance with His will, He answers. Sometimes He answers differently than we expected, in a better way...but there are many times in the Bible when God did something because people have prayed for it. This happens in our own lives too!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Can you imagine a possible motive for it?

I'm having a really hard time coming up with one using your line of reasoning that doesn't end in "God is a jerk."

Maybe He did it for us?
For example, take the story of Abraham (I know it's a little different from what you were talking about, but the point is the same). God told him to sacrifice his son, and he agreed. Then, God told Abraham that it's not needed after all. At first, this is hard to undertand and you can say, 'well God knew already that Abraham is obedient, why go through all that?' but Abraham didn't know.
So it was necessary to do.
Maybe it's a similar case with many other things.
God's thinking is not like our thinking, and just because we can't understand His motives doesn't mean "He's a jerk". In the end of the day, we really have to trust that God is good and faithful, and does what is best. Even if we can't understand it.

Anyway, I believe that since God is in eternity and we are not, it's perfectly possible for Him to have everything planned out and be unchanging and yet still answer our prayers and let us influence His decisions. Maybe He took our prayers into consideration when He created the world, and planned everything out so that they would be answered. He is not in time!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Without delving into the epsitomological nightmare of your claim, it is still upon you (or someone who shares your beliefs) to reconcile this blatant contradiction.

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"
Jesus is not saying that we will receive anything we want no matter what. There is a condition: faith. Maybe the reason some prayers aren't answered is because the people don't have enough faith? I don't know, but maybe that is the case. I know in my own life God has answered the prayers that I really believed in, but not really the 'doubtful' ones. So even if not everyone is healed, etc, it doesn't mean that Jesus is a liar.

This question has dogged Christians since the early Church. Why does your god refuse to answer?

Sometimes He doesn't explain things to us plainly because we wouldn't understand them right now. But I don't think that He's refusing to answer this question, I think many people have received an answer to it: not a complete answer, but still the truth, and something they would understand and be at peace with.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

But that's just the problem: there are Christians the world over who submit, yet their prayers go unanswered. There are people who lose thier faith because God abandons them. There are people who die becuase God abandons them.

God never abandons people. Even if a prayer isn't answered, that's for a reason, and God is still there for the person. We don't see the whole plan because it's too big for us, but someday "we shall see clearly". Someday they will all know that God never left them. People lose faith because they choose to, and death is not a punishment and is not the worst thing that could happen to someone. It's all part of God's plan.

God isn't there to 'make our lives better', we should live for Him, not for ourselves. This is Christianity: to give up oneself. God isn't there to serve us, we are here to serve Him. In His mercy, He chooses to listen to our prayers and answer them....sometimes He doesn't answers in the way that we want, but always in the way that we need.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm thinking of leaving this discussion. I don't know, maybe I'll stay...but it seems like we're just arguing and not getting anywhere.

Here is the final thing I have to say here.

Just because we can't understand God's ways, doesn't mean that He doesn't exist or is a liar or a jerk. His ways are higher than our ways, obviously we wouldn't be able to understand them and it is arrogance to dismiss something just because we don't get it or see it with our own eyes.

No matter what, we should persevere in faith and keep on believing in a good, faithful God who has saved us from death and is always there for us. I pray that we would all persevere. When we want to know His will, we can read the Bible, and even better, we can ask Him ourselves. What a priveledge it is to talk to the Creator of the universe and have Him answer us! There is so much that I don't understand about His ways, but I feel that I have a choice: either to believe and have a real relationship with Him, or disbelieve because of my intellectual arrogance and reject Him. One way leads to life everlasting, and the other leads to death. Sometimes it's hard to make the right choice because I am weak and am tempted to do what is easy, but God helps us because He is strong, and thus even our weakness glorifies Him. If we rely on God, we would be strong in Christ and nothing would move us. Isn't that a great place to be? Faith comes from God and testifies to His greatness, and if in order to accept it we have to be weak and broken, that is a worthy sacrifice. I think that there is plenty of evidence in support of Christianity and that you can be a very smart person and be a strong believer, but sometimes we have to choose between trusting God or our own understanding...and God is always the right choice.

That is what I firmly believe, and if it is foolish, then I'm a fool. I'll just keep on saying what I feel God put in my heart to say. I believe that the Bible contains no lies, and that Jesus meant it when He said: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer". I don't know why not everyone is healed by prayer, but I'm choosing to believe that prayer can work, because Jesus said it does. His word is evidence enough.

I'm not really there yet, but I'm hoping that God would change me into someone who would live for His glory and not for my own, and if I have to give up my 'image' for that, so be it. If we let go of the world and of ourselves, we would get God, who is the best thing there is...if we cling to the world, we'll get nothing.

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" I pray that this would be true for all of us, dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

God bless.


monica

 

[Wiccan_Child]

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"
Jesus is not saying that we will receive anything we want no matter what. There is a condition: faith. Maybe the reason some prayers aren't answered is because the people don't have enough faith?

If that is the case, then all people who make requests via prayer don't have enough faith. Prayers that make a request are ineffective.

I don't know, but maybe that is the case. I know in my own life God has answered the prayers that I really believed in, but not really the 'doubtful' ones.

This is akin to a self-fulfilling prophecy. The prayers you 'really believed in' are the ones that you were certain would come true regardless of whether you prayed of not (for example, praying for healing at the peak of an illness is far more doubtful than praying when they are almost out of hospital).

So even if not everyone is healed, etc, it doesn't mean that Jesus is a liar.

Of course it does: the verse says nothing about how hard someone believes, but only whether they believe or not. I'm willing to grant that agnostics are don't come under the catagory of a believer, but to disregard all self-professed Christians and non-believers? This offends even me.

Sometimes He doesn't explain things to us plainly because we wouldn't understand them right now. But I don't think that He's refusing to answer this question, I think many people have received an answer to it: not a complete answer, but still the truth, and something they would understand and be at peace with.

So it's along the lines of:
"God, my aunt is very sick; she's dying. Will you make her better?"
"[No answer]"
"I'll take that as a no, then..."

Notice that an absent God will give exactly the same answer as a silent God.

God never abandons people. Even if a prayer isn't answered, that's for a reason, and God is still there for the person.

On the contrary, you just postulated that prayers go unanswered because people aren't True Christians™. God abandons the unbeliever, remember?

We don't see the whole plan because it's too big for us,

This is the fault of God; he, after all, created our comprehension capacity.

but someday "we shall see clearly". Someday they will all know that God never left them. People lose faith because they choose to, and death is not a punishment and is not the worst thing that could happen to someone. It's all part of God's plan.

It's God's plan for most people to disbelieve? It's God's plan for most people to be sent to Hell?

God isn't there to 'make our lives better',

On the contrary, an omnipotent & omnibenevolent entity has no choice but to make our lives the best possible.

we should live for Him, not for ourselves. This is Christianity: to give up oneself. God isn't there to serve us, we are here to serve Him. In His mercy, He chooses to listen to our prayers and answer them....sometimes He doesn't answers in the way that we want, but always in the way that we need.

Explain, then, why all prayers are answered with the cosmic equivilent of 'no comment'?

 

[david_x]

A direct yes or no? Like, a great booming voice from the sky? Please.

No, it is a small voice.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

If that is the case, then all people who make requests via prayer don't have enough faith. Prayers that make a request are ineffective.

He has answered many of my prayers, and the prayers of my friends. In fact I've never known a Christian who has had no prayers answered... even prayer for forgiveness is a request, and we know that He answers that!!

This is akin to a self-fulfilling prophecy. The prayers you 'really believed in' are the ones that you were certain would come true regardless of whether you prayed of not (for example, praying for healing at the peak of an illness is far more doubtful than praying when they are almost out of hospital).

Actually, many people turn to God when they feel completely hopeless. Then, they pray believing that nothing else would work...so they pray in faith, and God answers.
My prayers that have been answered in the most obvious ways were those that I said when I was losing hope in everything else, because the situation seemed desperate.

Of course it does: the verse says nothing about how hard someone believes, but only whether they believe or not. I'm willing to grant that agnostics are don't come under the catagory of a believer, but to disregard all self-professed Christians and non-believers? This offends even me.

It doesn't say "if you're a believer..." it says "if you believe...". Even Christians doubt once in a while! But apparently we shouldn't when we pray.

So it's along the lines of:
"God, my aunt is very sick; she's dying. Will you make her better?"
"[No answer]"
"I'll take that as a no, then..."

Notice that an absent God will give exactly the same answer as a silent God.

I didn't say that God doesn't answer at all, I said that He answers in a way that we would understand. There is still an answer - not silence, and that shows that God is present, not absent.

On the contrary, you just postulated that prayers go unanswered because people aren't True Christians™. God abandons the unbeliever, remember?

I didn't say that they weren't 'true Christians', I said that they are doubting. True Christians doubt once in a while too, even the Apostles did.
And God doesn't abandon anyone, He loves saints and atheists alike and died for us while we were sinners. He didn't abandon us when we turned our backs on Him, rather He died for us.
An unbeliever is further from God (by his own choice) and may get fewer prayers answered, etc, but He is not abandoned or forgotten about. He is still loved and cared for, he just doesn't accept that love.
Even when we are unfaithful, God is faithful. It says so in the Bible: "if we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:13)

This is the fault of God; he, after all, created our comprehension capacity.

Finite creatures can not comprehend infinity. God is infinite.
All things are possible with Him, but He doesn't make nonsense.

It's God's plan for most people to disbelieve? It's God's plan for most people to be sent to Hell?

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
People choose to disbelieve because they are unwilling to choose God over themselves, their understanding, etc.
Also when I said "it's all part of God's plan" I was referring to death, not to disbelief..sorry I should have been more clear.

On the contrary, an omnipotent & omnibenevolent entity has no choice but to make our lives the best possible.

God made us to be eternally happy with Him, but we have turned away from Him and are therefore miserable. He did make our lives the best possible, but we rejected this and decided to make our own lives good, by ourselves. This can't work, so we began to die as a result. It's like God said: "I am giving you everything to be happy, and since I know you will be happiest with Me, come and dwell with Me". and people said: "no we'd rather make ourselves happy and be our own masters".
And what did God do as a response to this? He died to bring us back to Him, because He loves us.

See, God does want to make our lives the best possible. But it still remains that we were made for His glory, not for our own. The whole reason why people turned away from God in the first place is because they were proud and wanted glory themselves.

We live the best possible lives by living for Him. This is real joy and real happiness, and the only reason people don't like it is because of pride. We just have to let go of that, and accept the love God is wanting to give us.

Explain, then, why all prayers are answered with the cosmic equivilent of 'no comment'?

Where did you get that?
God does not answer with 'no comment'. If a person accepts salvation, they are made spiritually alive and can hear God...they are able to have a relationship with Him. God speaks to unbelievers too, they just don't want to hear...they are still 'dead' spiritually and don't want God. They block His voice out. But God talks to them too, and if they accept Him, He responds.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

 

[MoNiCa4316]

No, it is a small voice.

I agree.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No, it is a small voice.

But a voice nontheless. Is this voice objectively verifiable, or is it in one's head? If the former, then I'm surprised that noone else has discovered it. If the latter, then your claim remains unsubstantiated: self-induced auditory hallucinations are remarkably common. I'm sure you're aware that 'hearing voices' is a sign of psychotic illness.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

But a voice nontheless. Is this voice objectively verifiable, or is it in one's head? If the former, then I'm surprised that noone else has discovered it. If the latter, then your claim remains unsubstantiated: self-induced auditory hallucinations are remarkably common. I'm sure you're aware that 'hearing voices' is a sign of psychotic illness.

But all these voices doesn't change your whole life around and they don't change you as a person. Hearing God does.

And the only way science would be able to detect God's voice is if He spoke using sound waves or any other physical, material way. The Holy Spirit doesn't work like that, I think, because He is not a physical being. There is so much that we don't know about!! to say that something doesn't exist just because science hasn't discovered it, is ridiculous. There are billions of things that science knows nothing about, even excluding anything spiritual.

Some people have actually heard God's voice, but most (including myself) have 'felt' Him say things...sometimes in words, sometimes not.
Actually, physically hearing or seeing God would be considered a miracle and not something we experience every day. Most people never experience it in this life.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

He has answered many of my prayers, and the prayers of my friends.

Define 'answered'. Is this a voice booming from the sky saying 'Granted / Denied / Pending'? Or is it the consequence itself: if you pray for rain, and rain comes, does this count as answered?

In fact I've never known a Christian who has had no prayers answered... even prayer for forgiveness is a request, and we know that He answers that!!

Enter me: I was a staunch Christian for eleven years, and none, none of my prayers 'came true' (once I prayed for my mother to be cured of a rather painful earache; three weeks later, it hadn't changed in the slightest. It took a specialist to drain excess fluid). Was I not 'faithful' enough?

Actually, many people turn to God when they feel completely hopeless. Then, they pray believing that nothing else would work...so they pray in faith, and God answers.
My prayers that have been answered in the most obvious ways were those that I said when I was losing hope in everything else, because the situation seemed desperate.

As they say, it is always darkest before dawn.

It doesn't say "if you're a believer..." it says "if you believe...". Even Christians doubt once in a while! But apparently we shouldn't when we pray.

So this is your justification for saying, 'Oh, if your prayer didn't 'work', then you were doubtful'. You have the audacity to dictate what people think?

I didn't say that God doesn't answer at all, I said that He answers in a way that we would understand.

So why isn't the entire human populace Christian (or, at least, theistic)?

There is still an answer - not silence, and that shows that God is present, not absent.

During my eleven years of Christianity, I recieved no answer. I might as well have prayed to my cat for all the recognition I got.
No offence meant, of course. This is simply my experiance.

I didn't say that they weren't 'true Christians', I said that they are doubting. True Christians doubt once in a while too, even the Apostles did.
And God doesn't abandon anyone, He loves saints and atheists alike and died for us while we were sinners. He didn't abandon us when we turned our backs on Him, rather He died for us.

He sacrificed himself to himself so that he might appease himself enough to modify a law that he himself put in place. Does this sound a tad redundant?
I know this sounds off-topic, but your argument fails unless you can justify the self-sacrifice of God.

An unbeliever is further from God (by his own choice)

I object to the implication of your wording: you seem to be saying that unbelievers go, 'Oh, I know the Judaeo-Christian God exists, but I choose to follow another path'.
Given that there is no evidence for your deity, the logical stance is one of nonbelief. To criticise people for making the most rational decision is... dumb.

and may get fewer prayers answered, etc, but He is not abandoned or forgotten about. He is still loved and cared for, he just doesn't accept that love.

There is a difference between rejection and seeing no reason to believe. Do you reject the wisdom of Gautama Buddha, or do you not believe said wisdom?

Even when we are unfaithful, God is faithful. It says so in the Bible: "if we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:13)

Such is omnipotence, I guess...

Finite creatures can not comprehend infinity.

Of course we can. Ever heard of Aleph-nought?

God is infinite.

Explain. 'Infinite' has many meanings, and since I am a mathematician and physicist, I comprehend more than most (not to toot my own trumpet, but still...).

All things are possible with Him, but He doesn't make nonsense.

Of course he does. Quantum mechanics is nonsense, yet he Created it.

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
People choose to disbelieve because they are unwilling to choose God over themselves, their understanding, etc.
Also when I said "it's all part of God's plan" I was referring to death, not to disbelief..sorry I should have been more clear.

Indeed.
So is disbelief part of God's plan? Because the fact of the matter is that those born in Islamic countries are very unlikely to convert to Christianity. Why, then, would God place some people in such unfair conditions (with respect to the afterlife) compared to, say, the Bible Belt of Middle-America?

God made us to be eternally happy with Him, but we have turned away from Him

Eve was tricked by one of God's creations. This does not equate to the totality of humanity turning away from God.

and are therefore miserable.

I'm not miserable.

He did make our lives the best possible, but we rejected this

See above.

and decided to make our own lives good, by ourselves.

What?! Nonsense. There cannot be an entity who is simultaneously omnibenevolent and omnipotent in our reality, given that such an entity has done nothing to aleviate suffering. It has nothing to do with what we want; is it do with what said entity won't.

This can't work, so we began to die as a result.

We die because our cells have a built-in lifespan of ~70 years.

It's like God said: "I am giving you everything to be happy, and since I know you will be happiest with Me, come and dwell with Me". and people said: "no we'd rather make ourselves happy and be our own masters".

The words attributed to him contradict reality: if he wants us to be happy, and happiness only lies with him, he would force us to be with him. Is this morally wrong? No, becuase we would be happy. Indeed, given the nature of omnipotence, we needn't be aware of such force.
Sadly, this is evidently not the case. Ergo, an omnimax entity cannot exist.

And what did God do as a response to this? He died to bring us back to Him, because He loves us.

Why did he die for us in exactly the same manner as 'heathen' deities in adjacent cultures?

See, God does want to make our lives the best possible. But it still remains that we were made for His glory, not for our own. The whole reason why people turned away from God in the first place is because they were proud and wanted glory themselves.

Nonsense. I want happiness. I want the world to be happy. I so, so badly want absolute and unending happiness for every entity across all the universes.
That it hasn't happened is direct proof that an omnimax entity does not exist.

We live the best possible lives by living for Him. This is real joy and real happiness, and the only reason people don't like it is because of pride. We just have to let go of that, and accept the love God is wanting to give us.

The arrogance of calling us prideful.

Where did you get that?
God does not answer with 'no comment'. If a person accepts salvation, they are made spiritually alive and can hear God...they are able to have a relationship with Him. God speaks to unbelievers too, they just don't want to hear...they are still 'dead' spiritually and don't want God. They block His voice out. But God talks to them too, and if they accept Him, He responds.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

I knocked for eleven years. One beings to think that noone is home after such a long time.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

But all these voices doesn't change your whole life around and they don't change you as a person.

Of course they do. They have objectively identifiably symptoms.

Hearing God does.

Hearing what you attribute to your God does, yes. The Muslim attributes it to Allah, the Hindu to Vishnu or Brahman, the Buddhist to a deva, etc. From across the globe, auditory hallucinations are most readily attributed by the sufferer to their primary deity.

And the only way science would be able to detect God's voice is if He spoke using sound waves or any other physical, material way. The Holy Spirit doesn't work like that, I think, because He is not a physical being.

If he is not physical, then he cannot interfere with us. This is the definition of 'physical'.

There is so much that we don't know about!! to say that something doesn't exist just because science hasn't discovered it, is ridiculous. There are billions of things that science knows nothing about, even excluding anything spiritual.

Naturally. No scientist explicitly rules out the possibility of not disproven, nor expliticly holds true that which is not proven. While your god may exist (barring disproof), this is no reason to believe. Otherwise, you may as well believe that I am the Second Incarnation of Christ.

Some people have actually heard God's voice,

A claim echoed throughout human culture; hardly indicative of Christianity.

but most (including myself) have 'felt' Him say things...sometimes in words, sometimes not.

Instinct is hardly evidence. We 'feel' that there is something lurking in the dark; is this evidence of said thing?

Actually, physically hearing or seeing God would be considered a miracle and not something we experience every day. Most people never experience it in this life.

Why?

 

[PeacaHeaven]

Both in different places

 

[Gukkor]

Wiccan_Child, you seem quite skeptical of spiritual and/or religious matters in general, not just Christianity. Why, then are you Wiccan? Surely you don't mean to indicate that the Goddess is anymore objectively verifiable than any other deity, do you? Or do you profess belief more in what the Goddess stands for than in the Goddess herself?

 

[irateional]

Wiccan_Child, you seem quite skeptical of spiritual and/or religious matters in general, not just Christianity. Why, then are you Wiccan? Surely you don't mean to indicate that the Goddess is anymore objectively verifiable than any other deity, do you? Or do you profess belief more in what the Goddess stands for than in the Goddess herself?

Mostly because he probably finds pantheism fairly logical.

It makes more sense to believe that God is literally the universe as we know it.

Secondly audio hallucinations are a form of paraeidolia, where in, the mind assembles something "real" out of non-real things. Look at a circular air vent with about 300 holes poked into it in a neat pattern. If you simply stare, your brain begins connecting the holes into lines. This is because the human brain seeks to "assemble" missing data.

When you "hear voices" the same thing is basically happening. Your mind hears a string of incomprehensible noise that is just close enough to a voice to be comprehended as one. So it basically "fills in the gaps" and creates voices where there are none. Everyone has it happen, and depending on your desire to seek out a voice in situations, it'll happen more or less often. Being aware of the phenomena, I stopped hearing anything resembling human voices. On the other hand, to people who have never realized the phenomena, they often hear voices when they "want" to. Late at night when they're naturally wary of noises, or in fits of religious hysteria.

yay science!

In schizophrenics, it's figured that the part of the mind that does these things is basically working non-stop hence the reason they can't stop "hearing voices everywhere".

 

[Gukkor]

Mostly because he probably finds pantheism fairly logical.

It makes more sense to believe that God is literally the universe as we know it.

Secondly audio hallucinations are a form of paraeidolia, where in, the mind assembles something "real" out of non-real things. Look at a circular air vent with about 300 holes poked into it in a neat pattern. If you simply stare, your brain begins connecting the holes into lines. This is because the human brain seeks to "assemble" missing data.

When you "hear voices" the same thing is basically happening. Your mind hears a string of incomprehensible noise that is just close enough to a voice to be comprehended as one. So it basically "fills in the gaps" and creates voices where there are none. Everyone has it happen, and depending on your desire to seek out a voice in situations, it'll happen more or less often. Being aware of the phenomena, I stopped hearing anything resembling human voices. On the other hand, to people who have never realized the phenomena, they often hear voices when they "want" to. Late at night when they're naturally wary of noises, or in fits of religious hysteria.

yay science!

In schizophrenics, it's figured that the part of the mind that does these things is basically working non-stop hence the reason they can't stop "hearing voices everywhere".

This phenomenon isn't new to me, and despite being aware of it, I still experience it fairly regularly (usually one of my parents calling my name or some such). However, there is a marked difference between these phantom sounds and the "voice" I "hear" when God is speaking to me. It's...difficult to describe. Then again, I've personally never asked anyone to take my word for it. As I see it, such experiences are purely personal. There's no point in trying to get others to believe in my experiences with God because even if they give me the benefit of the doubt, it's still not their experience.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wiccan_Child, you seem quite skeptical of spiritual and/or religious matters in general, not just Christianity.

I am sceptical of all assertions. Evidence is paramount, and statements are not ascribed a truth value until due rationale is given.

Why, then are you Wiccan?

Subjective evidence.
I am Wiccan, and have spiritual beliefs as a result, but I do not profess them to be true: they are private beliefs. I am proud to be Wiccan (hence my name and my faith icon) but I do not hold my beliefs above anyone elses, and I fully concede that I may be entirely wrong.
I object, however, to people who do profess their beliefs as necessarily true. To claim that request-prayer garners positive results above what we'd expect via chance is something I will challange; to claim that you hear a voice in your head when you pray to give thanks, I will not.

Surely you don't mean to indicate that the Goddess is anymore objectively verifiable than any other deity, do you?

Not at all.

Or do you profess belief more in what the Goddess stands for than in the Goddess herself?

Not at all. I do not believe she stands for anything, she simply is.