The Bible: Symbolic or Literal?

[david_x]

An insincere wish is not prayer. I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you.

That was just what you were making a prayer sound like.

Why? Surely this belief justifies any and all atrocities?

No, but like any Christian we wish to suffer for our beliefs. We would all be marders if we could.

David's failure is that his viewpoint diminshes God to some stooge that's bound himself in conundrums he can't work around. That God is all powerful and knowledgeable, but somehow, he's an incompetent boob that can't grant everyones wishes.

Not at all. God does not grant everyones wishes because he is the only one that knows what we need.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That was just what you were making a prayer sound like.

I never once implied that 'Oh, I wish she was dead!' was prayer.

No, but like any Christian we wish to suffer for our beliefs.

Martyrdom benefits noone, especially when done for selfish reasons.

We would all be marders if we could.

You, perhaps, but the vast majority of non-murdering people don't.

Not at all. God does not grant everyones wishes because he is the only one that knows what we need.

So all prayers are not answered. Fine.

 

[david_x]

I never once implied that 'Oh, I wish she was dead!' was prayer.

You defined that a prayer should always have a positive answer. That is a wish. A prayer on the other hand is a request to a king. It may be denied because of the plan.

Martyrdom benefits noone, especially when done for selfish reasons.

Why did you change the subject? When done for the right reasons it is beneficial.

You, perhaps, but the vast majority of non-murdering people don't.

Martyers not murderers.

So all prayers are not answered. Fine.

Wishes, not prayers.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You defined that a prayer should always have a positive answer.

No, I didn't.

That is a wish.

No, it isn't.

A prayer on the other hand is a request to a king. It may be denied because of the plan.

Prayer is a request to a deity for help.

Why did you change the subject?

You stated that Christians want to suffer for their beliefs. This is martyrdom.

When done for the right reasons it is beneficial.

Dying for one's cause, perhaps, but an active desire to suffer? I'd hardly call that definitive of Christian dogma.

Martyers not murderers.

Indeed. But you said, 'We would all be marders if we could'. I took 'marders' to mean 'murderers'.

Wishes, not prayers.

No, prayers. You stated that all prayers are answered, yet you have contradicted yourself.

 

[jad123]

Prayer is a request to a deity for help.

Just a quick note. Prayer is not a request for help. Unfortunately many have made it that. But prayer is speaking to God. When I pray I do not always ask for help, more times than not I simply tell the Lord "Thank You" for what I have and for what He has done in my life,.

 

[david_x]

No, I didn't.

You said that prayer is not true because the thing being praid for does not come true anymore than if they did not pray. Implying that you think a prayer has to have a positive answer.

Prayer is a request to a deity for help.

I meant like a request to a king, and we are talking about Christianity not the other dietys out there.

You stated that Christians want to suffer for their beliefs. This is martyrdom.

Yes but you just thought you should throw in the whole right or wrong of it. That is beside the point right now. Go start another thread for that.

Dying for one's cause, perhaps, but an active desire to suffer? I'd hardly call that definitive of Christian dogma.

Sacrifice, that is what Christians are called to do. We sacrifice our happiness our time our money. That is obviously a desire to suffer.

Indeed. But you said, 'We would all be marders if we could'. I took 'marders' to mean 'murderers'.

I know, I was actually trying to clear up my post.

No, prayers. You stated that all prayers are answered, yet you have contradicted yourself.

It is there in black and white. I said that God does not grant everyones wishes.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You said that prayer is not true because the thing being praid for does not come true anymore than if they did not pray. Implying that you think a prayer has to have a positive answer.

No, my implication there was that prayer is ineffective.

Yes but you just thought you should throw in the whole right or wrong of it. That is beside the point right now. Go start another thread for that.

If you can't respond, fine.

Sacrifice, that is what Christians are called to do. We sacrifice our happiness our time our money. That is obviously a desire to suffer.

The whole point about sacrifice is that you give up your desires. You don't sacrifice because you desire sacrifice; that defeats the whole point of sacrifice.

It is there in black and white. I said that God does not grant everyones wishes.

I'll take that as a remission of your previous claim.
To which I cite:

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

This is demonstratably false.

 

[david_x]

No, my implication there was that prayer is ineffective.

Yes, which implys that prayer has to have a positive response to be effective.

The whole point about sacrifice is that you give up your desires. You don't sacrifice because you desire sacrifice; that defeats the whole point of sacrifice.

Well, then you can agree that we desire sacrifice it indirectly. We want what God wants he wants us to sacrifice.

I'll take that as a remission of your previous claim.
To which I cite:

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

This is demonstratably false.

If you are trying to demonstrate it, do you actually believe the way you are supposed too?

I'll take that as a remission of your previous claim.

What claim?

 

[artybloke]

No, but like any Christian we wish to suffer for our beliefs. We would all be marders if we could.

We would? Are we stupid or something? I don't want to suffer for my beliefs; I'm not actively going out to get martyred and I don't see why anyone would want to be.

Even Christ didn't want to be crucified ("if it's possible, take this cup from me" etc...) He still went and did it because he knew he had to.

Same with us: if we have to stand up for our beliefs, and even be martyred for them, then we will (without violence back, in other words) but we don't run actively into a situation just so we can get martyred. That's not holiness, that's stupidity.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes, which implys that prayer has to have a positive response to be effective.

No, it just has to have an objectively identifiable response, be it positive, negative, or neutral.
The fact is that no prayers are answered, not even the few that happen to conform to whatever God's will is at the time. Those that appear to be positively answered occur with the exact frequency we would expect from coincidence.

Well, then you can agree that we desire sacrifice it indirectly. We want what God wants he wants us to sacrifice.

Yes, in a roundabout way. As is my understanding, God wants you to give up all desires except your desire for him. Thus, your only desire will be for him (sort of).
Come to think of it, this is remarkably Buddhist.

If you are trying to demonstrate it, do you actually believe the way you are supposed too?

I'm sorry?

 

[david_x]

We would? Are we stupid or something? I don't want to suffer for my beliefs; I'm not actively going out to get martyred and I don't see why anyone would want to be.

Even Christ didn't want to be crucified ("if it's possible, take this cup from me" etc...) He still went and did it because he knew he had to.

Same with us: if we have to stand up for our beliefs, and even be martyred for them, then we will (without violence back, in other words) but we don't run actively into a situation just so we can get martyred. That's not holiness, that's stupidity.

Reading the next few posts may have cleared this up. It is not a direct thing. We want what christ wants so indirectly we want suffering.

No, it just has to have an objectively identifiable response, be it positive, negative, or neutral.
The fact is that no prayers are answered, not even the few that happen to conform to whatever God's will is at the time. Those that appear to be positively answered occur with the exact frequency we would expect from coincidence.

There is not identifiable, testable result. That is what I was trying to say.

Yes, in a roundabout way. As is my understanding, God wants you to give up all desires except your desire for him. Thus, your only desire will be for him (sort of).
Come to think of it, this is remarkably Buddhist.

Except that there is no diety in buddism, no greater power.

I'm sorry?

If you try to demonstrate that somthing doesn't work, you don't think it actually works, or at least you have doubts. You have to pray with faith, so if you doubt it it will not work. It you try to demonstrate it, it will not work.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

There is not identifiable, testable result. That is what I was trying to say.

And I am saying that there is, if prayer is at all effective. Prayer, when used for requests, is ineffective. This is an indentifiable, testable result.

Except that there is no diety in buddism, no greater power.

Nevertheless, the sentiment is remarkably similar to one a Buddhist might make: desire is the root of suffering.

If you try to demonstrate that somthing doesn't work, you don't think it actually works, or at least you have doubts. You have to pray with faith, so if you doubt it it will not work. It you try to demonstrate it, it will not work.

First, falsification tests are more often used to support an idea than to disprove it. Second, the prayers under examination need not come from a doubter; analysing the prayers of the faithful is sufficient.

 

[david_x]

And I am saying that there is, if prayer is at all effective. Prayer, when used for requests, is ineffective. This is an indentifiable, testable result.

Why don't you seem to be able to grasp the concept that a request that is denied is still answered?

Nevertheless, the sentiment is remarkably similar to one a Buddhist might make: desire is the root of suffering.

Universal truth.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Why don't you seem to be able to grasp the concept that a request that is denied is still answered?

Because you claim that some prayers are positively answered: a persons asks for something, and God directly intervenes to make it so. Either all prayers are denied (or pending response), or prayer is ineffective.

Universal truth.

Hardly.

 

[david_x]

Because you claim that some prayers are positively answered: a persons asks for something, and God directly intervenes to make it so. Either all prayers are denied (or pending response), or prayer is ineffective.

I am not talking about positive or negative, just answered.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I am not talking about positive or negative, just answered.

But that's just my point: all prayers are either unanswered, or are answered with no response. Parsimony would suggest the former.

 

[david_x]

But that's just my point: all prayers are either unanswered, or are answered with no response. Parsimony would suggest the former.

Everyonce in awhile there is no direct answer, so it is assumed no. But the vast majority recieve either a yes or no directly.

 

[artybloke]

It is not a direct thing. We want what christ wants so indirectly we want suffering.

Christ does not want us to suffer. Christ did not want to suffer himself. Christ chose to suffer because he knew it was the only way. If we have to suffer for faith, it will be because it's the only way, not because we want to.

Christianity is not a form of masochism.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Everyonce in awhile there is no direct answer, so it is assumed no. But the vast majority recieve either a yes or no directly.

A direct yes or no? Like, a great booming voice from the sky? Please.

 

[Gukkor]

And I am saying that there is, if prayer is at all effective. Prayer, when used for requests, is ineffective. This is an indentifiable, testable result.

Yes, but if you're praying purely for the sake of getting something, you're missing the point. Prayer isn't like magick, where the whole point of casting a spell is to make something happen that you want to happen. Prayer is mostly about simply communicating with God. Sometimes that involves asking something of Him, yes, but not always, or even most of the time, ideally.