Any TE's here in a YEC Chuch?

[peteos]

I've been old earth for a good deal of my life but it has been as recently as December of 2006 that I was convined that common descent was a reality. I now find the subject one of the most fascinating topics there is. I am currently part of a church plant for a non-denominational Bible Church. The church statement of faith makes it clear it believes in instant creation and no evolutionary process (though it also inserts random and I don't think any natural act is "random" beyond God's control, but I digress). The church is actually careful not to mention the age of the earth and it has been revealed to me it has some Old earthers, but the majority are YEC and YEC speakers have been brought to the church to discuss it (indeed, it was one such lecture that interested me to explore it myself which culminated in me accepting common descent as a reality

I have been pretty open with it with our church plant pastor, especially since I am part of the leadership. He has been cool with it for now and I even prompted him to look into it himself to investigate the theological side of it, though I suspect he will ultimatly reject it. But that is not even what I am here to discuss. It is just the atmosphere of everyone else. In a membership seminar I recently attended we were contrasting the world views of Christianity and the secular world and evolution was in sharp focus. The guy behind me declared if evolution is true then it is all pointless, and oh, if you really look into it evolution doesn't hold any water in the first place Likewise, many a conversation will revert into the problem of death and pain and our usual theological answer is given, red ants are from the fall I have resolved not to make it a big issue, but I find these solutions are not fitting with reality and I am increasing finding myself at a loss to answer within this community. Frankly, I find common descent an obvious and exciting reality, and it is hard to keep it bottled up among an enormous majority (the membership of my church that is, and probably all of them but me) who don't know the first thing about what common descent actually is or what would support or falsify it. And on top of that, leaving in the suddle fear that it will be made more widely known that I know it is true, and to be looked down upon for having less faith in the Bible, or comprimising, or whatever makes them sleep better at night.

And yet, I believe in Jesus, and believe he is at work in this community of believers and wish to continue to fellowship with them. And even more so, and I will try not to offend my more liberal brothers here, but I find churches that are accepting of the reality of evolution are more liberal in other ways I do not yet accept, about the innerancy of the Bible, or the historical reality of Jesus, or maybe Abraham(?), etc. As recently as a few months ago I declared I would never leave a church over this issue, especially since I am taking the more liberal stance (not trying to use liberal derogatory here, I mean more like progressive, I like to err on the side of caution). And yet, I feel more and more bottled up about it all the time. Six months ago I didn't think I would tell anyone. Five months ago I told my wife, and that was going to be it! Three months ago I am telling my pastor!!! I am not doing a very good job remaining in the closet, as I had planned.

Indeed, look, I am typing on this forum as we speak.

Can anyone relate? Does anyone fellowship in a YEC atmosphere today? Has anyone left a church or felt oppressed in such an atmosphere?

 

[MrSnow]

I have, for the most part, been in a YEC atmosphere. For me, really, it's never an issue, since the issue really never comes up. Even if it came up at my church, I don't think it'd really be a big deal, based on what I know of most of the people there. The only person at my church that I have ever discussed this issue with happened to be a YEC, but he said that that was of very little importance to him, and that if he was proven wrong then he was proven wrong.

I have, however, been a part of other non-Sunday-meeting groups which were very much YEC, and I would have been afraid of being burned at the stake for saying anything non-YEC.

Which leads me to another issue: making non-essentials the litmus test for orthodoxy. That is something for which I have very little patience, and for which I would leave a church in a heart beat.

*edit*

Oh, and then there's my family. My grandpa has said (in no uncertain terms) that anyone who is not a YEC is not reading scripture for what it is and is bending to the athiests so as not to appear stupid to the world. And of course most of the rest of my family agrees with him.

 

[crawfish]

My church doesn't push any origins theology, but I know there are quite a few YEC/OEC types who I'd offend if I spoke up too often. I have not needed to speak up too often because the topic is rarely breached.

Fortunately, I have this board to sew my wild TE oats.

 

[Fed]

I used to go to a very fundamentalist church. They even brought in Hovind once. I'm still a member of a conservative one, but origins aren't discussed. Pretty much no one knows my personal origins beliefs. If they did, they'd probably think of me as a liberal heretic. It's not fun growing up in a rabidly fundamentalist environment.

 

[FranciscanJ]

I grew up in a hardcore YEC megachurch and my girlfriend (who has always believed in teh science) loves it, though not because it's YEC. She loves it because her most Godly, loving friends attend it.

Before I became TE, I had already started attending a more emergent-type church, which welcomes more diverse theological backgrounds and focuses more on the essentials of our faith than issues like YEC, etc. But I still consider myself a pretty conservative evangelical.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I was attending one of my girlfriend's church's bible studies and got surrounded by about four guys in one of those evolution versus creationism (a false dichotomy) arguments. I was still trying to work out my TE theology at the time and also really had to use the bathroom, so the argument ended abruptly, to their frustration and my relief.

Then when the bible study started the leader (who had overheard the argument) made a point about how you can't explain away Christianity using evolution (since many people at the study had claimed they are not afraid of being eaten by mountain lions). So that would go against survival reasons I guess.

Right... , interestingly, I had previously said I'd be afraid to meet one on a trail--so I guess I wasn't a real Christian according to this proof. They seemed to make it some kind of faith issue. After this I got the evil eye a few times, like I was a guy who needed to be ministered to. Another problem was I also noticed a lot of the youth who were being ministered to there seemed to be discouraged to go to college, unless they got an audible voice from God apperrantly. So, it wasn't just TE issues that I had with these guys.

I thought maybe I would keep attending, to show them I'm not just some confused heretic, and to prove to them that TE's can be good Christians too.

I could have done this, but then I realized I wasn't learning anything and this teacher seemed to pull teachings out of his own views on life more than anything that could help me grow in my walk.


So, as much as I liked all of them, I really just didn't care to be there anymore. Maybe if TE was the only issue, then I would have stayed. I told my girlfriend I was sorry, and it turned out she agreed with me, so we left for a different bible study at the other church. Most of my buddies are YEC, but they don't question my faith, so I think I get a good enough dose without hearing it made an issue at bible study.

It's a different situation for every TE in a YEC church.
It would be bad if every TE left, as this would lead to exactly the kind of polarization that I recieved, since people would only be exposed to YEC.

 

[Willtor]

The Church I'm attending right now is the first non-YEC/OEC Church I've ever attended regularly. The Rector says he considers himself a TE, though he hasn't given it a lot of thought (though, given his general theological knowledge this probably means that he's given it a lot more thought than most people, but not as much as he's given to other things).

I do remember moving towards TE (as an undergrad), though, in a rather Fundamentalist Church. It wasn't so difficult for me because I don't go out of my way to make a big deal about most things, but I do like to argue points when they're brought up. Nobody ever challenged my faith on it except when teachers made broad, sweeping statements about evolution and evolutionists.

 

[Mallon]

I used to attend a YEC church (WELS synod). But once it became known that I subscribed to evolution (it comes up often, given my background in palaeontology), I was asked by the pastor to refrain from receiving communion there. I was still welcome as an 'unofficial' member, but not at the Supper table. I don't think I ever felt quite so rejected in my life. Needless to say, I don't attend that church anymore. In fact, I don't attend any church anymore... I'm still a free agent.

 

[peteos]

I have not needed to speak up too often because the topic is rarely breached.

I would have assumed the topic would not come up much in my church either. And maybe it doesn't, maybe I am just a bit sensative to it at this juncture. I think with the opening of the Creation Museam, people have been a little more excited about it all.

It seems my pastor is most concerned with the secular philosphy that science can solve all our problems (agaist our worldview that only Christ can solve the ultimate problem of sin). Outside of that I don't think he would be terribly concerned what I believe but I'll see what he says. There is no going back now. I know to much. Just this Friday, it was reiterated strongly to myself as I sat at my desk. Common Descent is a fact, and I must integrate that into my Christian faith or deny my Christian faith. But denying evolution is no longer a possibility.

 

[FranciscanJ]

Stay strong bro, I recomend not denying your Christian faith over integration issues, even when you don't have it all figured out. This is YEC thinking. YEC is so attractive because it has an exact and simplistic answer to every question about Genesis (that everyone must abide by if we "really" believe the bible). So as a new TE the thought of mysteries in this area often causes us to have a freakout attack.

Integration is important, but some things like exactly dating Adam, etc. (100,000 years ago or more recent representative?) may simply be difficult to calculate in an exact mathematical, modernistic certainty such as 1+1=2, though in a broader sense I think our understanding regarding it all can be.

There are different options, just like different interpretations of many passages. So, it will take time to understand how such a concept that you may have been taught to see as evil really is compatible.

But it is the Holy Spirit that brought you to God, and it is God who now leads you to more mature understanding and deeper mysteries concerning His creation. I must sometimes remind myself that right now we really do see as in a glass darkly and many things we may not know the way we know 2+2=4 until that day we go to be with Him.

Anyway, didn't mean to go off like that but I was feelin' it.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

I have no idea what my church is "officially" but I'm sure most if not all are YEC. No one there knows my beliefs, I guess I'm a chicken!

Here's my problem, my kids are 4 and 6.. we'll be getting into science soon enough and they'll be educated (by me, I homeschool) thoroughly in evolution. The day will come when there will be a "well, *my* momma said..." argument in Sunday school and I'm NOT looking forward to it.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

I used to attend a YEC church (WELS synod). But once it became known that I subscribed to evolution (it comes up often, given my background in palaeontology), I was asked by the pastor to refrain from receiving communion there. I was still welcome as an 'unofficial' member, but not at the Supper table.

Oh my goodness! That's just so, well... unChristian, yes?

 

[Tinker Grey]

WRT home-schooling, we flat out tell the kids that other kids & parents have different beliefs (we discuss the options and consequences of them, as well). We tell them that it isn't their place to instruct their fellows.

We have found that at earlier ages, there is too much stuff to do to even introduce the topic.

As a consequence of being thoroughly churched, both the older two aren't particularly inclined to take on the philosophical consequences of the topic.

We are confident that they have tools and the grounding to move forward if and when they are so inclined.

I guess I suppose that I am getting at that stuff doesn't always go as you plan. I suppose if we'd made it a priority, our kids could be thoroughly absorbed, etc. However, given that we find engaging in community is more important than being the best debater -- and that picking fights isn't conducive to community -- we're happy with where we (& the kids) are right now.

 

[peteos]

Well this is new. I have never heard of a Christian homeschooling community teaching their children evolution. It is to avoid evolution that many Christians homeschool in the first place!

My kids are 3 and 5. My five year old will start kindergarden on Monday. Being in a public school (albeit in Texas) evolution will eventually be taught to them (probably not until sophmore in High School). By that time I will probably be totally out (I have already told all the authority in my Church, but don't spread it around to common people). I do plan to overseeing and assiting the education of my daughters from the very beginning, but especially in the latter years when they are involved in mathematics, physics, and biology, to make sure they work hard in these areas and are confident and self sufficent.

What I am nervous about is over the next several years, teaching my children the Bible and Adam and Eve. Speculating on Adam and Eve as a metaphore for sin entering the world is fine for me to ponder, but a little harder to express to a 5 or 6 year old. The literal history is a much easier way to present it.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Well this is new. I have never heard of a Christian homeschooling community teaching their children evolution. It is to avoid evolution that many Christians homeschool in the first place!

LOL. My homeschooling has more to do with being allowed to be an individual than what they're taught. Actually, that's not true. Given some of the schools around here I'd be lucky if they even got evolution right.

What I am nervous about is over the next several years, teaching my children the Bible and Adam and Eve. Speculating on Adam and Eve as a metaphore for sin entering the world is fine for me to ponder, but a little harder to express to a 5 or 6 year old. The literal history is a much easier way to present it.

Me too! If you have any ideas, please let me know. My current plan is to do the whole traditional Genesis thing until they're a little older -- I don't know any other way.

 

[Fed]

You can teach the spiritual lessons behind Genesis regardless of how literal it is - God created (through some method), the universe is infused with purpose, we have a special place and role in it, we neglected our purpose and chose to "become like gods". Those truths will remain even when your kids learn that it didn't exactly happen the way a literal reading would suggest.

 

[Mick116]

While the Anglican church I attend has no stance one way or the other, the Baptist church I go to on Sunday nights is decidedly YEC. The pastor knows my stance, as we have discussed it before. I knew I couldn't remain silent after a series of sermons based squarely on material produced by AiG... I couldn't believe the amount of misinformation and half-truths expressed in the material, and there was absolutely NO attempt to consider the arguments or merits of alternative positions... YEC was presented as an unquestionable fact.

One of the elders there gave an even worse sermon... we as Christians, so he said, need to stand up to the "spirit" of secularism and unbelief, and stand firm against the "evils" of evolution... when he started saying that it was "evolution-thinking" that inspired Hitler to commit his crimes against humanity, I almost groaned out loud. This had to be the worst anti-evolution, anti-science and anti-common-sense tripe I'd heard to date (and I've watched Hovind on DVD, so that's really saying something).

But they are good (though, I think, misguided) and loving people, and I really do enjoy the fellowship.

Again, this is not the church I usually attend. I've been more heavily involved with YECist Presbyterian and brethren churches in the past, but back then I was only just starting to grow out of my own YECism, so it didn't feel like a problem at all.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'm LCMS, and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is definitely YEC. Heck, there were some geocentrists still around in the 1920s...

 

[chaoschristian]

My church doesn't have an official position on it, but I know from casual conversation and people's in church reaction to the mention of evolution that it's overwhelmingly YEC.