What would option 3 look like

[Lanakila]

Genez you laid out very well why the Creed shouldn't be used as a guideline for who is able to post in CO forums. Add to that the different understandings between denominations of baptism and its a complicated issue that most just breeze over without thinking about it. Over a year before I deconverted I was trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity and became a modalistic type believer. It's simple to say: just accept the Trinity without thinking very deeply, but if you think very deeply or even debate against those of other faiths that get you wondering if there are 3 God's in heaven, how the Holy Spirit is able to be in all believers ect those questions can make you honestly not be able to say that you believe the Creed. So honest questioning which may or may not lead to deconversion but hasn't gotten near there yet gets someone kicked out of CO forums. This will lead to more deconversions than if you just let people honestly question for understanding doctrines, because if someone is already considered to not be a Christian because of those questions, then why not go all the way to agnosticism or atheism?

Luther was considered a heretic by the church who gave us the Creed. So was Jon Huss. Both men fought heresy, and were labeled heretics for it.

The problem is not with the Creed itself - as it is worded, that is.

The problem is? You can agree with the Creed.

But if you do not agree with the same interpretation that was used to implement it? As those lording over you, do? Then they can tell you, that even though you say you agree? You are not in agreement with Creed.

They, in effect, want you to sign a paper saying you will never beat your wife again, as proof you never beat your wife.

I can cite many verses to show that Jesus is God. I can even give insight as to why that is so. Yet? If it does not agree with the traditions and church dogma of those involved evaluating you? It does not matter. You must line up with their way of concluding. Not just the conclusion.

One flaw I faced? If you do not say God died on the Cross? Some moderators of ecumenical bent will say you really do not believe Jesus is God.

That if you do not believe Mary is the Mother of God? Then you are really saying Jesus is not God.

The real problem is. They do not properly understand the details of the hypostatic union. If you try to show how the Word of God reveals inconsistency with their traditions of belief? A lot of good that will do you.

What we need to do is to hold up the Creed as the Standard for Christianity. Yet, not include with it all the old church traditions (which the Creed does not mention) as the litmus test to see if you really agree with what the Creed proclaims.

It does not matter how many verses you can show to reveal Jesus is God. If you did not believe God died on the Cross? Or, that Mary is not the Mother of God? Then some will tell you, that you may say you believe Jesus is God. But? You really do not.

Another frustration I faced...

When I asked those accusing me how God can die? How God can be born? The judging moderators were not required to supply an answer. They were not open to be flexible to find out that they might be inconsistent with what the Word says. Yet? Remained insistent.

In other words? They would thread you... and keep turning clockwise till it won't turn no more.

Do you believe God is capable of death? God can die? Of being born? The creator of birth?

If you see those as being impossible for God? Under the right circumstances? You could have been set up to have your privilege to post in the Christian section challenged. Even though you believe in the Deity of Christ!

The problem was not with the Creed itself. Not with the way its written, The problem was with how some abused it to railroad you out if they did not care for your way of thinking.

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds."

How was he begotten? What does that mean? That does not speak of the hypostatic union of the incarnation.

How many people in the Forum can give an accurate exegesis on that? Can you?

You know something? Very few can.

Yet, that is what was used as the last point to keep me out after I had clarified all the other roadblocks they placed in my way. Is that being fair?

The Creed can be used to stone wall anyone they deemed to be a pain to their religious sense of security.

If everyone in the forum were required to answer that question? How many could post in the Christian only section?

The Word states the Lord was begotten before the worlds. But? The Word does not tell us how. So? It was a loaded question. Unjust.

As you can see, I am taking this time of reprieve to make it known to those who want the Creed reinstated, that before it is,,,,,, regulations on its use, and misuse by moderators must be established as to be sane and fair.

Praying for fair and sane Forum return.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

 

[sparklecat]

Could option 3 include FSBs coded in somehow?

 

[Joykins]

I didn't vote in the poll either. The options were both unsatisfactory.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez you laid out very well why the Creed shouldn't be used as a guideline for who is able to post in CO forums.

You got me wrong... I gave good reason why we should have regulations preventing the abuses used when a Christian was to be rail-roded out of the Christian section because certain ones think they hold the copy rite on how the truth in the Creed is to be derived to its conclusion.

Add to that the different understandings between denominations of baptism and its a complicated issue that most just breeze over without thinking about it.

That is one point, and should not even be a requirement. It just so happens to be in the Creed. Only the essential issues found in the Creed concerning Deity, and salvation should be required. And, the virgin birth.

Over a year before I deconverted I was trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity and became a modalistic type believer. It's simple to say: just accept the Trinity without thinking very deeply, but if you think very deeply or even debate against those of other faiths that get you wondering if there are 3 God's in heaven

They really have to allow for such debate. For it (the Trinity) is probably one of the most confusing and perplexing mysteries to be found in the Bible.

The minimum requirement should be.... The Bible says that Christ Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are God. Do you believe the Bible is true on this issue? How they are? That we must discover. Mistakes will be made as human reasoning is eliminated down the road, and replaced by aspects to be found in the Word.

There are seeming contradictory passages that appear to be when taken out of context concerning the humanity and Deity of Christ. Those are the ones that need to be faced head on, so some here who fear what it seems to say, can be shown how that what it says can be, and still have the Deity of Christ as being God over all creation.

Some saw that even exploring these areas to consider, in desire to discover what we need to know to resolve the dilemma, as automatic heresy. Yet, in contrast. Some come here to disprove the Deity of Christ as their objective. Those should be denied access. They should go find another forum on the web for that.


Certain ones in the past wanted to hold down and retard the body of Christ by not allowing for exploration and discovery of anything that did not take place since 480AD. Those ones need to join a monastery and keep away from ruling over others here who are seeking Truth today. Truth they may have missed back then.

When seeking Truth part of the process will be making mistakes... and then correcting them! Some over seeing act as if they are infallible and never can make a mistake as long as they have their church's commentaries. They justify doing such with traditions they accepted without question.

, how the Holy Spirit is able to be in all believers ect those questions can make you honestly not be able to say that you believe the Creed.

No, ignorance as to what that entails can cause one to reject the Creed if they remain willfully ignorant.

Just because the Holy Spirit is in all believers does not automatically make all believers wise.

It only grants all believers the privilege of becoming wise.

There is a spiritual battle for our souls. And, we are told in Scripture that certain believers will lose all rewards in Eternity. Believers are not automatically zapped into knowledge and understanding because they have the Holy Spirit. We must suffer for righteousness sake as the Holy Spirit first reveals to the believer the truth about our own arrogance and stubbornness which would prevent true spiritual growth.

Not all are willing to suffer till its completion at maturity in Christ. So, the Holy Spirit remains in them, but as grieved and squelched. No rewards in Heaven. But, saved. And, in the mean time, they find doctrines which will appeal to their natural inclinations of thinking outside of grace.

The misinformation that abounds around certain ones in the church today can cause someone like yourself to give up. We all get tested this way! Its a mistake to be giving up too quickly, thinking the Word has lied because things that seem to be contradictory are not resolved instantly. Feeling that what you now see? Must be what it really means? That it must simply be all there is to it? That there can be no way out? Its a trap all of us must face at some point of being a Christian.

In doing that, you assume you know all there is to be known on the subject (because of our tendency to think we are too smart for this stuff) and obviously, the Bible is wrong. We can set ourselves up in self righteousness as being too smart to be wrong. Happens all the time.

So honest questioning which may or may not lead to deconversion but hasn't gotten near there yet gets someone kicked out of CO forums. This will lead to more deconversions than if you just let people honestly question for understanding doctrines,

Correct! But, certain ones in authority wanted the answers to your questions to agree with their church's way of thinking. For they assumed they are the only ones approved of by God. They revealed this in what they shared about their beliefs in the forum.

Therefore? The Creed gimmick was used, and another heretic is removed from their midst.

Self righteousness reigns in the souls of men today just as much as it did when Christ walked the earth. Ironically, they thought themselves approved of God above others... Yet, they had yet to learn who God is.
.

because if someone is already considered to not be a Christian because of those questions, then why not go all the way to agnosticism or atheism?

You are falling for the old demonic lines that try to manipulate our pride, and turn us to self pity because of the confusion it causes.

Satan tempted Eve in the Garden... and all Christians will be tested.

2 Corinthians 11:3 (New International Version)
"But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ."
​

At some point we all get tested by the demonic realm. For the Bible says it is not flesh and blood we wrestle with.

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
​

Christians can become demonized in that sense, if they quit and give up before the answer is to be found to what appears to be a contradiction to the truth!

For it says that it is not flesh and blood we struggle against, though through flesh and blood we receive our opposition!

People are hypnotized by powers they can not detect consciously. That is why we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit! That is why we have been given the Bible. For greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world. If we keep being filled we will be led to the truth (in God's timing) to resolve the seeming contradiction that comes from the source of the powers of darkness.



If there is a God in Heaven? There will be answers. But!

The answers will just not be there at your convenience. You will have to endure and suffer until they arrive at your door. We have been called as Christians to suffer at times. Some want a God who will pamper them. Pray for an answer, and there it should be! Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years before God was ready to use him.

Those who want truth must suffer a type of loneliness that will only be filled by truth... not the acceptance of others. Not even acceptance of self.

Your soul (as all believers) are now being tested by God to see if we are worthy of being made close to God in Eternity.

The demonic realm knows self pity and prideful indignation when they see it - which was your reaction to legalism. They will use it to draw you away from fighting on to know truth. Don't be a sucker! We all have been treated unjustly by self righteous morons who carry a big stick. It happens everywhere we go.


There are real answers to be found! Because... God is real!

It looks like you are letting self righteous men and powers of darkness separate you from God. And, it appears you are blaming God in resentment for allowing it to happen.

By that happening? Your flesh is being exposed to yourself and must be dealt with by grace! But? Instead? Refusing to suffer in patience and wait upon the Lord?

"I'll show you God! I'm leaving Christianity! "

That is like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face...

Grace and truth, GeneZ
​

 

[suzybeezy]

Return the Christians Only area


No forced icon changes, unless the violation is so obvious that its clear their choice to carry the icon is a deception to post in the CO areas.

Return the Open threads, where a person can choose whether or not they want to have the thread open to everyone.

No non-Christians on staff - and the voting should be done in private with all staff voting, not just the related team. In other words, return to the old process.

Continue with the transparency for the Conference Room, but not for reports. Upper staff should have a private section to hash out stuff before its presented to the public. Additionally there should be a time limit on reports - in other words, should be processed in a timely manner not lingering open for weeks.

Get rid of the wiki - its a flawed system for a site this large.

Let staff devise a better version of rules, based on their experience. There's a version I personally wrote up which combined murrons version, the most recent version, and all the CR and DR concerns raised. It was a little "wordy" but provided examples and guidelines so there was no room for staff interpretation and they were worded clearly so all members could understand - no legalese

Bring back the warnings and infractions, including the old Request for Edit, but make warnings and infractions appealable.

Let conciliator team have access to the staff forums and regular forums so they can truly work with both staff and members. Although they should sign confidentiality agreement and clearly defined roles.

Have an appeals review board - comprised on half staff and half members.

Congregational areas private to each denomination.

Return to the focus that staff are not Police, but need to focus on ministry and outreach.

 

[Robinsegg]

Have you considered making a multiple-option thread, in which you list all the possibilities and people vote for the ones to keep?
Or maybe 1 poll that has the original options and 1 poll that has the new options, and people vote for the ones they like?
If you could do that, you'd get a really good idea of what the populace here likes and dislikes, and go from there.
Rachel

 

[TheDerek]

Return the Christians Only area


No forced icon changes, unless the violation is so obvious that its clear their choice to carry the icon is a deception to post in the CO areas.

Return the Open threads, where a person can choose whether or not they want to have the thread open to everyone.

No non-Christians on staff - and the voting should be done in private with all staff voting, not just the related team. In other words, return to the old process.

Continue with the transparency for the Conference Room, but not for reports. Upper staff should have a private section to hash out stuff before its presented to the public. Additionally there should be a time limit on reports - in other words, should be processed in a timely manner not lingering open for weeks.

Get rid of the wiki - its a flawed system for a site this large.

Let staff devise a better version of rules, based on their experience. There's a version I personally wrote up which combined murrons version, the most recent version, and all the CR and DR concerns raised. It was a little "wordy" but provided examples and guidelines so there was no room for staff interpretation and they were worded clearly so all members could understand - no legalese

Bring back the warnings and infractions, including the old Request for Edit, but make warnings and infractions appealable.

Let conciliator team have access to the staff forums and regular forums so they can truly work with both staff and members. Although they should sign confidentiality agreement and clearly defined roles.

Have an appeals review board - comprised on half staff and half members.

Congregational areas private to each denomination.

Return to the focus that staff are not Police, but need to focus on ministry and outreach.

YES!

 

[GreenMunchkin]

The thing is, with that system, non-Christians will feel very pushed out again, and this is an opportunity to create a forum where everyone belongs.

 

[Timothy]

The thing is, with that system, non-Christians will feel very pushed out again, and this is an opportunity to create a forum where everyone belongs.

Then why are we: Christian Forums, not Everyone Forums? If we remain Christian Forums, we should have a Christian emphaiss, focus and praxis.

Tim

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Then why are we: Christian Forums, not Everyone Forums? If we remain Christian Forums, we should have a Christian emphaiss, focus and praxis.

Tim

I do see what you're saying, but I think it's important that we're not making non-Christians feel they don't belong here. Much of CF is about fellowship, and that's what many of us need, but if we're making non-Christians feel unwelcome, and not witnessing to them, we're honestly failing. It shouldn't be to the detriment of fellowship or uniting all Christians, but it should be a part and parcel of being a Christian forum.

That's why a mixture of the two initial options is the best solution.

 

[drstevej]

Then why are we: Christian Forums, not Everyone Forums? If we remain Christian Forums, we should have a Christian emphaiss, focus and praxis.

Tim

Exactly, otherwise the vision shifts with the wind.

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine -- EPH 4:14

 

[GreenMunchkin]

So do you feel this being a forum primarily for Christians precludes non-Christian membership?

 

[Lindon Tinuviel]

The name is Christian Forums.

We have Categories named Faith, Fellowship, and Mission.

We have Forums named Christian Gallery, Edification, Christian Wiki, Theology, Congregation, and Outreach.

Spread all over the Board, we have Subforums named Ask A Pastor, xxxx's Fellowship, Hymns And Gospel, Singles' Ministry, and Christian Penpals.

The site is overwhelmingly Christian in theme, in atmosphere, and in membership.

 

[kimber1]

grr subscribing here too

 

[sc4s2cg]

Could option 3 include FSBs coded in somehow?

Please?

G-d bless,
sc

 

[MrJim]

It comes to this for me:

I am not afraid of talking with or to non-Christians and Christians of every denomination when it comes to my faith or theirs. I have been just as offended here by Christians as I have been by non-believers, and i have learned to just remember that always this is just a forum.

In the real lives we all lead outside of this little box, there are people who we encounter everyday that are just like the people on this board. In my real life I have both kinds of friends, and there are occasions where they both mix. But I also know what it is like to have a place to just be religious for awhile and I think for me, this has been that place.

I go to MajorGeeks or Mac Forums to discuss computers, I go to cooking forums to discuss cooking, and so on. What i do not do is discuss cooking in the computer section or Jesus in the cooking section.

It seems awful weird to me that people who are not Christians are here at a place called Christian Forums, and the subtitle is uniting all Christians. What do they have to add to this cause? Anyway it seems to me that if the Erwin wants to appease both then he should do what he set out to do and either make two forums, one for everyone, and two one for just Christians to unite themselves, or scrap the whole idea and reinvent this site to a new vision.

In which case those who wanted to have a safe haven to squabble (I mean talk) amongst themselves will be forced to make a decision to stay or go. Many I guess have left but i am going to stay and see what happens. If I do not like the changes I will leave, again as I have before, and the forum will move on without me as it did before. It is after all just a forum.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Return the Christians Only area


No forced icon changes, unless the violation is so obvious that its clear their choice to carry the icon is a deception to post in the CO areas.

Return the Open threads, where a person can choose whether or not they want to have the thread open to everyone.

No non-Christians on staff - and the voting should be done in private with all staff voting, not just the related team. In other words, return to the old process.

Continue with the transparency for the Conference Room, but not for reports. Upper staff should have a private section to hash out stuff before its presented to the public. Additionally there should be a time limit on reports - in other words, should be processed in a timely manner not lingering open for weeks.

Get rid of the wiki - its a flawed system for a site this large.

Let staff devise a better version of rules, based on their experience. There's a version I personally wrote up which combined murrons version, the most recent version, and all the CR and DR concerns raised. It was a little "wordy" but provided examples and guidelines so there was no room for staff interpretation and they were worded clearly so all members could understand - no legalese

Bring back the warnings and infractions, including the old Request for Edit, but make warnings and infractions appealable.

Let conciliator team have access to the staff forums and regular forums so they can truly work with both staff and members. Although they should sign confidentiality agreement and clearly defined roles.

Have an appeals review board - comprised on half staff and half members.

Congregational areas private to each denomination.

Return to the focus that staff are not Police, but need to focus on ministry and outreach.

OH GOODY go back to the old system...what a wonderful suggestion.

You realize that is partially what lead to the changes on 7/7/07 don't you? Why would anyone sensible want to go back to that horrible mess?

Unless they liked the old way of doing things of making people feel unwelcome and trying to push out Non-Christians and those Christians who don't fit neatlly into little boxes for you to put them in.

And I would not say staff where that much focused on outreach and ministry back in the good ol' days but rather their own agendas and vendettas. Which most staff ennforced with a vice like grip.

I won't vote for the other two options and the ideas for an 'option 3' are just as ridiculous so I would not vote for them either.

I still say what would it hurt people to give this new system a chance. It wouldn't hurt anything. Except maybe some egos.

 

[TheDerek]

There have been some solid suggestions. As I've been getting back into modding I have the biggest need there is! Solid rules! No more Wiki's! PLEASE!

 

[SunMessenger]

There have been some solid suggestions. As I've been getting back into modding I have the biggest need there is! Solid rules! No more Wiki's! PLEASE!

I understand and agree.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

I cannot remember if this was already suggested but what about we have a wiki until each forum gets its rules straight and then make them stick and be solid rules? (I would look back through all 3 threads but I just don't have time)