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Transitional Fossil Questions

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philadiddle

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These questions are for the YECs.

1. How would you define "transitional fossil".

2. How would you identify one if found?

3a. How many intermediate forms would have to be found between 2 other vastly different forms (such as the whale and it's terrestrial ancestor, or reptiles and birds) before you would accept that they did evolve?

3b. Why that many?
 

ExpatChristian

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what is your point and what are your answers so we have something to go on.

Stop being studiously stupid. They are questions asked in good faith and sincerity. Either you have an answer or you don't. If you have one, then just answer the question and stop the too-smart-by-half response. If you don't, then either go to another thread or say that you don't know and would like someone else to answer so that you can learn something.
 
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philadiddle

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what is your point and what are your answers so we have something to go on.
If you deny the existence of transitional forms, then you must already have those questions answered. I'd like to hear how you would answer those questions.
 
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archaeologist

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If you deny the existence of transitional forms, then you must already have those questions answered. I'd like to hear how you would answer those questions.

i was hoping to hear your point first as i have more questions.

IF evolution is true then why & when did it switch from its transitional species process and do everything according to scripture?

why would it need to evolve reproductive organs when its own system seemed to be working flawlessly?

also, i am curious, all those fossils examined--did they have reproductive organs in them? or is that being held a secret to promote evolution over creation?
 
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ExpatChristian

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IF evolution is true then why & when did it switch from its transitional species process and do everything according to scripture?

why would it need to evolve reproductive organs when its own system seemed to be working flawlessly?

also, i am curious, all those fossils examined--did they have reproductive organs in them? or is that being held a secret to promote evolution over creation?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Anybody else having a problem understanding this?
 
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philadiddle

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Although you are avoiding the questions in the OP and, IMO, derailing the thread, I'll go along and answer some questions.

i was hoping to hear your point first as i have more questions.
I don't have a point yet since I don't know what your answer will be. I have transitional forms I'd like to discuss (not in this thread), I just want to see if we define "transitional form" the same.

IF evolution is true then why & when did it switch from its transitional species process and do everything according to scripture?
You seem to have melded 2 questions together. Could you please make this more clear?

why would it need to evolve reproductive organs when its own system seemed to be working flawlessly?
why would what need to evolve reproductive organs?

also, i am curious, all those fossils examined--did they have reproductive organs in them? or is that being held a secret to promote evolution over creation?
organs don't fossilize, how is this related?
 
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archaeologist

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i will answer them at the end of this post

Although you are avoiding the questions in the OP and, IMO, derailing the thread, I'll go along and answer some questions

not trying to derail the thread, i just didn't know what point you were making.

I have transitional forms I'd like to discuss (not in this thread),

why ask them in this thread if your discussion is going to be in a different one? what is the point of answering them here?

You seem to have melded 2 questions together. Could you please make this more clear?

it is clear enough.

why would what need to evolve reproductive organs?

evolution needs to evolve reproductive organs.

organs don't fossilize, how is this related?

then how can scientists be sure evolution created the fossils?

-----------------------------

your questions:

1. How would you define "transitional fossil".

i wouldn't. there are no such things and the differences between same specie fossils could be attributed to any number of options other than evolution or natural selection.

2. How would you identify one if found?

that would be impossible since there are no such things. an evolutionist is inferring or declaring such an item exists but cannot prove that the transitional process actually took place or that evolution would ultimately be responsible for said process.

3a. How many intermediate forms would have to be found between 2 other vastly different forms (such as the whale and it's terrestrial ancestor, or reptiles and birds) before you would accept that they did evolve?

0. it would be impossible to determine, if true, that any amount would be required since according to evolution the transitory stage is not complete yet and if true, it would be a very subjective or arbitrary classification.

3b. Why that many?

because there are none and no process to conduct such a transition.

because
 
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philadiddle

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not trying to derail the thread, i just didn't know what point you were making.
there doesn't have to be a point. I was just asking a question.

why ask them in this thread if your discussion is going to be in a different one? what is the point of answering them here?
i felt that the discussion defining these terms should have it's own thread.

it is clear enough.
apparently not since i didn't understand it. You could at least give little effort to clarify what you meant.

evolution needs to evolve reproductive organs.
yes, so?

then how can scientists be sure evolution created the fossils?
The fossils exist, it is a fact. The theory of evolution explains the facts. It explains why the fossils are there, and why they are found in the order they are, and why there appears to be a change throughout the fossil record.

i wouldn't. there are no such things and the differences between same specie fossils could be attributed to any number of options other than evolution or natural selection.
So if I showed you dozens of examples of fossils that appeared to have traits of different "kinds" of animals (as if they were transitional) then you would choose to be willfully ignorant and just say "nuh uh"? Or would you be able to observe the evidence and explain it?

that would be impossible since there are no such things. an evolutionist is inferring or declaring such an item exists but cannot prove that the transitional process actually took place or that evolution would ultimately be responsible for said process.
There's no such thing as what? A transitional fossil? You still haven't defined it so I don't know we are talking about the same thing.

it would be a very subjective or arbitrary classification.
That's right, you're on to something now. There are fossils that are very hard to classify because they are so much like 2 different animals. There are fossils scientists argue whether they should be called "mammal-like reptiles" or "reptile-like mammals"



because there are none and no process to conduct such a transition.
no process? i'll have to start a new thread about the biological processes we observe that drive evolution. Not tonight though.
 
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archaeologist

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i felt that the discussion defining these terms should have it's own thread.

i would disagree as it would be a waste of time, space and become complicated when responding.

apparently not since i didn't understand it. You could at least give little effort to clarify what you meant.

you could have left the insinuation off as i did go back over the question and haven't found an easier way to say it yet.

basically evolution is aprocess, so why would it need to evolve reproductive organs that were not present in the beginning?

when did the change take place, from process to reproductive through means we know today?

basically what i see happening to the theory of evolution, and i have dealt with this for more than 30 years, is that it is changing from darwin's concept to almost exactly like God's creative act. the only thing missing is God and theistic evolutionists have provided that solution.

The fossils exist, it is a fact

doesn't prove evolution.

The theory of evolution explains the facts

a statement of declaration not proof. so does creation science, so does the flood, so does many other options. saying evolution explains the facts does not provide any proof that evolution actually did it.

So if I showed you dozens of examples of fossils that appeared to have traits of different "kinds" of animals (as if they were transitional) then you would choose to be willfully ignorant and just say "nuh uh"? Or would you be able to observe the evidence and explain it?

first off, 'kinds' is a group of animals in which they cannot reproduce outside of that group. hybrid experiments have proven this true. even the wild kingdom, without man's interference proves this true as the act happens rarely and all offspring are usually sterile. plus we do not see these animal's offspring mating and startying a whole new kind.

secondly, you would have to determine which 'kinds' those fossils belong to and group them accordingly before assuming they are transitional species. what you may have is inter-specie mating and results.

You still haven't defined it so I don't know we are talking about the same thing

i have defined it, i said there is no such thing. what you have is a fossil of an animal that lived at one point in time and then died. we do not form the fossils alone see any evidence that evolution was at work nor can we see the 'process' in action to say that is what took place.

the evolutionists own time frame undermines their argument, as what they state they see now is impossible to prove that evolution exists or is at work. it is all inferrence and declatory statements and no solid evidence.

what is seen today in the modern science lab, can be described as genetic defect, a result from the fall, or man interferred with the process and experimented with said 'mutation' and many other logical solutions.

nothing proves evolution true.

There are fossils that are very hard to classify because they are so much like 2 different animals. There are fossils scientists argue whether they should be called "mammal-like reptiles" or "reptile-like mammals

or the scientists have been fooled by a hybrid who got caught in the fossilization act. this has been an option avoided by evolutionists.

there are too many logical options to automatically credit a theory that has no divine origin.
 
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ExpatChristian

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basically evolution is aprocess, so why would it need to evolve reproductive organs that were not present in the beginning?

This statement represents an anthropomorphism and ascribes agency to evolution which demonstrates only one thing. You are completely ignorant about what evolution actually is. Evolution is a process and therefore has no agency, other factors like the environment etc. have the agency within the process. It would really help if you first read up on evolution before exposing yourself like this. You are embarrassing yourself.
 
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Rudolph Hucker

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Archie
Are you going to accuse philladiddle of not being a Christian too?
Archaeoligist wrote:-
Quote:
1. How would you define "transitional fossil".
i wouldn't. there are no such things and the differences between same specie fossils could be attributed to any number of options other than evolution or natural selection.

Name but one.
 
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Rudolph Hucker

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what is your point and what are your answers so we have something to go on.
The OP was a perfectly reasonable post posing perfectly legitimate questions. He sought the answers of others.
 
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Rudolph Hucker

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BTW, Archie, a caveat for your chum - "scandalon" can also be a stmbling stone and is of course the root of the English word "scandal".

From the OED

scandal



• noun 1 an action or event regarded as morally or legally wrong and causing general public outrage. 2 outrage, rumour, or gossip arising from this. [SIZE=-1]— ORIGIN[/SIZE] Latin scandalum ‘cause of offence’, from Greek skandalon ‘snare, stumbling block’.
 
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philadiddle

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there are too many logical options to automatically credit a theory that has no divine origin.
Although you ended with this, I felt I should respond to it first. You seem to have created a false dilema where you must choose either the divine or evolution. But that is not the case. Evolution is no more or less divine in origin then any other process we see in the world today. (volcanoes, rain, hurricanes, a flower blooming, etc.)

basically evolution is aprocess, so why would it need to evolve reproductive organs that were not present in the beginning?
It wouldn't need to, but it did. They weren't there and now they are. I don't know what you're getting at.

when did the change take place, from process to reproductive through means we know today?
There's no specific point in time. It was the accumulation of many gradual changes over a long period of time.

basically what i see happening to the theory of evolution, and i have dealt with this for more than 30 years, is that it is changing from darwin's concept to almost exactly like God's creative act. the only thing missing is God and theistic evolutionists have provided that solution.
Darwin's theory is being expanded on by new discoveries in molecular biology, cell biology, and many other fields of science. I don't think you've followed it very closely if that's what you think. In the last 30 years have you read any books on evolution? cause you don't seem to know what it is.

secondly, why is God needed for natural processes? what makes Him "missing" from the theory? why don't you try to include God in other fields of science like physics, meteorology (weather), etc.

a statement of declaration not proof. so does creation science, so does the flood, so does many other options. saying evolution explains the facts does not provide any proof that evolution actually did it.
quit saying "proof". That is something for mathmatics. A theory is a well established explanation of facts. That is what evolution is. Watch this 4 minute video. It's help you understand. He explains "scientific theory" at the 2 minute to 3 minute mark, but it's good to watch the whole thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k3g1mRx3LE

first off, 'kinds' is a group of animals in which they cannot reproduce outside of that group.
So 2 different species of frogs that can't mate with each other are different "kinds"?

hybrid experiments have proven this true. even the wild kingdom, without man's interference proves this true as the act happens rarely and all offspring are usually sterile. plus we do not see these animal's offspring mating and startying a whole new kind.
You are correct. That has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Showing that hybrids don't survive is favorable to the theory of evolution, because hybrids aren't a driving force of evolution.

secondly, you would have to determine which 'kinds' those fossils belong to and group them accordingly before assuming they are transitional species. what you may have is inter-specie mating and results.
How does mankind mate with other primates? How do reptiles mate with birds? How do whales mate with terrestrial mammals? There are forms that seem to be combinations of these. You say they are not transitional forms. What trait are they missing that would make them transitional forms?

i have defined it, i said there is no such thing.
That doesn't define it. If someone asks me to tell them what Santa Clause is, I don't just say "He doesn't exist, that the definition". I can still define what he is even though he's fictitious. Please explain what characteristics a fossil must have to be transitional.

what you have is a fossil of an animal that lived at one point in time and then died. we do not form the fossils alone see any evidence that evolution was at work nor can we see the 'process' in action to say that is what took place.
Since they are found in a nested hierarchy, then yes, the fossils are evidence of evolution. The theory explains the mechanisms that drive it i.e. natural selection, mutation, etc.

the evolutionists own time frame undermines their argument, as what they state they see now is impossible to prove that evolution exists or is at work. it is all inferrence and declatory statements and no solid evidence.
how does the time frame undermine the arguments?

what is seen today in the modern science lab, can be described as genetic defect, a result from the fall, or man interferred with the process and experimented with said 'mutation' and many other logical solutions.
wow are we ever getting off topic now.

nothing proves evolution true.
true because that's not how science works, that's how mathmatics works, as you will see in the short video clip i linked to earlier.

or the scientists have been fooled by a hybrid who got caught in the fossilization act. this has been an option avoided by evolutionists.
If a "kind" is something that can't mate outside itself, then by your own definition, a hybrid couldn't possibly be made by 2 different "kinds"
 
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