Polygamy

[BlackLamb]

This isn't really a question as to whether or not polygamy should be practiced now (there have been so many discussions about it previously in the theology forum anyway). It's more about the way God views sex. I know we had a big topic about pre-marital sex recently, so I hope this isn't being redundant, but recent events in my life have made me seriously sit back and reconsider my ideas on sex.

I was raised in a typical Baptist Christian home, and we all know what their views on sex are. "God intended for one man to be with one woman, to become one flesh. Pre-marital sex defiles this sacred institution” or what have you. So this is something I always believed, and it seems the Bible supports that. But I just can't get my head around the idea that, if this is all true, why God allowed polygamy.

King David was called a "man after God's own heart" but he had multiple wives, no? God called him out on murdering another man and stealing his wife, but not his polygamy. King Solomon and Abraham were polygamists too, right? So why, if one man is made for one woman, is this ok?

The “explanations” I've seen for this are arguments that the culture back then dictated that this was ok, it was beneficial for women, and so God was fine with it. So it was a cultural thing? If you try to use that argument with fundamentalists, they'd freak out and tell you God's word never changes and that you're just trying to justify sin. They’d probably tell me I’m trying to justify sin by asking this. But if I’m really, honestly expected to abstain from sex until married and even suffer from relationship problems because of it, I don’t think it’s asking too much for an explanation for a huge glaring contradiction. Anyway, I really don't see the logic behind their arguments.

I wanted to ask this here because I know if I posted elsewhere I'd get a bunch of canned answers like the one above, that when really looked at closely, don't make much sense at all. I know there are people here that have struggled through this too, or maybe still are.

So…just what are God’s views on sex? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm genuinely curious. Throughout the whole Bible there seems to be this theme of monogamy and waiting for marriage, but this just throws a kink in the system for me.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Personally, I think the church is ill equipped to speculate upon or relate to modern sexuality and therefore relationships.

We either live freely in grace and love, or not.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

I want to know where in the Bible it says that there is exactly one man for exactly one woman.

A little help . . .

 

[Multi-Elis]

Specially seeing how there are some unlucky women who go through marriage 3 times, and widowhood 2 times: Elizabeth Elliot, is one such woman. She is famous for the long waiting period she had with her first husband with whom she was madly in love. He was martyred quite early in their marriage. http://www.elisabethelliot.org/about.html She then married a nother man who later died, and then another. They were all ment for each other I suppose.

I like your logic, and I think you are very right in pointing it out. The only thing that worries me about your post is this: "But if I’m really, honestly expected to abstain from sex until married and even suffer from relationship problems because of it," I don't know what you mean by it, (and neither do I want to know) but it doesn't sound good.

 

[Im_A]

This isn't really a question as to whether or not polygamy should be practiced now (there have been so many discussions about it previously in the theology forum anyway). It's more about the way God views sex. I know we had a big topic about pre-marital sex recently, so I hope this isn't being redundant, but recent events in my life have made me seriously sit back and reconsider my ideas on sex.

I was raised in a typical Baptist Christian home, and we all know what their views on sex are. "God intended for one man to be with one woman, to become one flesh. Pre-marital sex defiles this sacred institution” or what have you. So this is something I always believed, and it seems the Bible supports that. But I just can't get my head around the idea that, if this is all true, why God allowed polygamy.

King David was called a "man after God's own heart" but he had multiple wives, no? God called him out on murdering another man and stealing his wife, but not his polygamy. King Solomon and Abraham were polygamists too, right? So why, if one man is made for one woman, is this ok?

The “explanations” I've seen for this are arguments that the culture back then dictated that this was ok, it was beneficial for women, and so God was fine with it. So it was a cultural thing? If you try to use that argument with fundamentalists, they'd freak out and tell you God's word never changes and that you're just trying to justify sin. They’d probably tell me I’m trying to justify sin by asking this. But if I’m really, honestly expected to abstain from sex until married and even suffer from relationship problems because of it, I don’t think it’s asking too much for an explanation for a huge glaring contradiction. Anyway, I really don't see the logic behind their arguments.

I wanted to ask this here because I know if I posted elsewhere I'd get a bunch of canned answers like the one above, that when really looked at closely, don't make much sense at all. I know there are people here that have struggled through this too, or maybe still are.

So…just what are God’s views on sex? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm genuinely curious. Throughout the whole Bible there seems to be this theme of monogamy and waiting for marriage, but this just throws a kink in the system for me.

i see two possible ways to see this.

one is, God's view of sex is the not most important thing for God. when the views of sexuality keep on changing, why should God be viewing sex as such a pivatol matter for God's creation's life? Old Testament men of God having multiple wives then go to the New Testament, and there's a push for a single celibate life to God but that marriage is a blessed thing and also it can help to control sexual passions that can if not taken with responsibility and discernment can lead to sin. so the constant change with this view in humanity's history shows the importance of it, towards God's personal view on the topic.

or...

two, it's a social aspect only. writers of the Old Testament writing from their own social and time of revelation of God and life, and thus we see a different cultural aspect than what we see today, and maybe God is really moving in all types of all cultures.

the only next thing i would ask is, why do we have to think that God has views of things because of the way the prophets lived their lives? the way we live our lives today is in many ways different, thus i see no reason to think that, how they lived their lives in the social world as the way of defining what God feels on certain things. it's hard enough to define what God "is" let alone, to know the mysterious will and mind of God.

 

[Im_A]

I want to know where in the Bible it says that there is exactly one man for exactly one woman.

A little help . . .

as would i. i can see metaphorical things coming from Adam and Eve, but that's a long shot in my opinion to make up some idealogy that there is one man for one woman and visa versa. especially with the topic at hand, with holy men having multiple wives, and it seems to diminish the lessons in the creation story by adding romantic/sappy naratives.

 

[dies-l]

This isn't really a question as to whether or not polygamy should be practiced now (there have been so many discussions about it previously in the theology forum anyway). It's more about the way God views sex. I know we had a big topic about pre-marital sex recently, so I hope this isn't being redundant, but recent events in my life have made me seriously sit back and reconsider my ideas on sex.

I was raised in a typical Baptist Christian home, and we all know what their views on sex are. "God intended for one man to be with one woman, to become one flesh. Pre-marital sex defiles this sacred institution” or what have you. So this is something I always believed, and it seems the Bible supports that. But I just can't get my head around the idea that, if this is all true, why God allowed polygamy.

King David was called a "man after God's own heart" but he had multiple wives, no? God called him out on murdering another man and stealing his wife, but not his polygamy. King Solomon and Abraham were polygamists too, right? So why, if one man is made for one woman, is this ok?

The “explanations” I've seen for this are arguments that the culture back then dictated that this was ok, it was beneficial for women, and so God was fine with it. So it was a cultural thing? If you try to use that argument with fundamentalists, they'd freak out and tell you God's word never changes and that you're just trying to justify sin. They’d probably tell me I’m trying to justify sin by asking this. But if I’m really, honestly expected to abstain from sex until married and even suffer from relationship problems because of it, I don’t think it’s asking too much for an explanation for a huge glaring contradiction. Anyway, I really don't see the logic behind their arguments.

I wanted to ask this here because I know if I posted elsewhere I'd get a bunch of canned answers like the one above, that when really looked at closely, don't make much sense at all. I know there are people here that have struggled through this too, or maybe still are.

So…just what are God’s views on sex? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm genuinely curious. Throughout the whole Bible there seems to be this theme of monogamy and waiting for marriage, but this just throws a kink in the system for me.

I am not sure that polygamy is ever regarded as per se immoral anywhere in the Bible. So, I don't believe that the proper analysis should consist of asking why God approved of it in the OT? Instead, the question should be why it is seemingly is not approved in the NT or in Christianity in general. As you suggest, the answer would seem to be cultural, but in a somewhat different sense than you suggest. Assuming that there is nothing inherently immoral about polygamy, one plausible reason that it may be frowned upon in the NT is that the culture that the NT was written to and that the early Church was attempting to reach (Jews and Greeks subject to the Roman Empire) did not accept polygamy. Because there seems to be neither a moral command nor a moral prohibition of polygamy, it would reasonable that a God who never changes would not want His people engaging in such conduct, if it were likely to offend others and/or push them away from receiving Christ. Thus, the more modern prohibition of polygamy is not so much that the act itself has become immoral in God's eyes, but that practicing polygamy in a culture that finds it distasteful and offensive is contrary to the Supreme law, which is to love your neighbor as yourself. It is quite unloving to intentionally engage in conduct that is offensive to another where there is no higher purpose in doing so (because polygamy is not commanded, you are not showing love for God by engaging in it).

Another illustration of this concept, I think, can be seen in Eph. 6:5-9. This passage does not suggest that slavery is cool with God, nor does it suggest the opposite. Rather, it gives no view on the morality of slavery. It simply says that, out of love, a slave ought to act in a way that is respectful and obedient to his master and that a master ought to treat his slaves with the same respect. Whether slavery is acceptable in the eyes of God is a subject for another discussion, but regardless of its morality or immorality, those involved in it, whether as slaves or as masters, are subject to the law of love. In the same way, even if polygamy in itself is acceptable to God (as seen in the lives of Abraham, David, and Solomon), it is not acceptable in a culture that finds it abhorrent, because in such a context, it is unloving.

What I sense, though, in the OP is that the real question is "if polygamy was ok in the OT, how do we know that pre-marital sex is not okay now?" This would seem to be a reasonable question, when you consider that we live in a culture that openly accepts non-marital sexual relationships. The difference between this and polygamy is that if you accept that "fornication" and/or "adultery" refer, among other things, to pre-marital sexual relationships, as does the traditional view, then such relationships are morally proscribed. Thus, to love and obey God (the only commandment higher than loving other people) requires that we abstain from them as He has told us to. Therefore, even if such relationships are acceptable in the culture, they may still be morally unacceptable in the eyes of God.

And, there is one meaningful difference that may explain why polygamous marriage is okay, but non-marital sexual relationships are not. Even, a polygamous marriage involves a commitment between a man and a woman to love one another until the death of either of them. Although polygamous marriage lacks the element of exclusivity found in monogamous marriage, the most important a element, the element of a commitment formed in a covenant between
a man, a woman, and God remains. This element of covenant does not exist outside of marriage, even in a monogamous non-marital relationship. Thus, one could conclude that the element of marriage through which God blesses us with the freedom of sexual expression is the element of covenant, rather than the element of exclusivity. If this is the case, then the discussion of polygamy would not be sufficiently analogous to be meaningful in a discussion of non-marital sexuality.

My belief is that God's view of sex is that sex should be awesome. I believe that God wants us to wait for our spouse, because sex only reaches its full potential in the context of marriage and that sex outside of marriage presents physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual dangers which we are not equipped to handle on our own. Thus, out of His great love for us and out His intricate understanding of the beauty of human sexuality, He asks us to wait for the ideal context, i.e., a God centered marital covenant.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Sex is defined as something that should take place only within marriage.

The problem is the the definition of marriage keeps changing.

Yes, pural marriage was allowed at one point so sex within that type of marriage was allowed, mostly as a form of social saftey net. Widows and their children could be sure to be taken care of if someone was responsible for marriying them in spite of the persons current marital state.

Currently, a marriage is defined a one man and one women. Why ?

I don't know, maybe so the goverment can force widows and orphans into poverty and make them depend on handouts from TV evangelists.

What does all this says about God and sex ?

Commitment is an important part of a sexual relationship and both outward and inward signs of that commitment should be present.

That's all I got.

Sorry.

 

[stewpot]

I personally dont have a problem with the idea of Polygamy, but would defer the decision to my ( one and only) wife, should it ever be a concept that we need to consider.
I think it is quite clear how YHWH views sex, and we can enjoy it within a 'marriage'. A marriage can consist of one husband and more than one wife. It cannot consist of one woman and many men.
I do not accept the concept of pre-marital sex. By definition, you have sex with a woman, and you are married to that woman, so long as they are not another mans wife, then it becomes adultery. So called 'pre-marital sex' is just a term to cover fornication or lascivious behaviour.
I dont see any evidence of the patriarchs going through a 'church' or even secular ceremony to declare their marriage, they just went into the tent together - nudge-nudge.
Have sex - your married, so be careful who you have sex with, be careful when or why, and count the cost.



stew

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I dont see tht sex is prescribed as "marrage only", unless i'm missing something in the Bible. Usually sex is marage, then when (typically) the male gets bored or horny he "marries" someone else as well, ad infinitum.

Not much different nowadays methinx

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

The “explanations” I've seen for this are arguments that the culture back then dictated that this was ok, it was beneficial for women, and so God was fine with it. So it was a cultural thing? If you try to use that argument with fundamentalists, they'd freak out and tell you God's word never changes and that you're just trying to justify sin.

Well, I'm fine with the cultural relativity explanation, but I'm not a fundamentalist.

My own feeling is that if you follow the two commandments Jesus gave (1. Love God, 2. Love your fellow Man) and Paul's dictum not to allow yourself to be mastered by anything, you're going to be doing good regardless of anybody's legalism.

Oh my, the fundies aren't going to be happy with me, are they? And here I am saying that as a Pentecostal, of all things.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

It cannot consist of one woman and many men.

And, why not?

 

[progressivegal]

And, why not?

That's what I'd like to know. And whether it "Can" or not, in some cultures it does.

 

[stewpot]

And, why not?

Forgive me, I thought I was in the 'Christian' Forum??.
I was not referring to other cultures.

I thought we would at least have the Word of YHWH (God) in common, whether or not we have the same understanding, we use the bible in this section,
that was my understanding.

I was merely, but without using the myriad of supportive scriptures, referring to the Biblical examples and instruction.

If you can find instructions to support anything other than 'one man - one ( or more ) wives, I would be very curious to know them.

That's why not!

love
stew

 

[progressivegal]

Forgive me, I thought I was in the 'Christian' Forum??.
I was not referring to other cultures.

I thought we would at least have the Word of YHWH (God) in common, whether or not we have the same understanding, we use the bible in this section,
that was my understanding.

I was merely, but without using the myriad of supportive scriptures, referring to the Biblical examples and instruction.

If you can find instructions to support anything other than 'one man - one ( or more ) wives, I would be very curious to know them.

That's why not!

love
stew

That was common practice in that particular culture at that time. The great thing about God is God likes to meet people where they're at, whether they have ten wives, no wife or 8 husbands. Just because something is not mentioned or practiced in the bible doesn't mean it's "wrong" and just because it was doesn't mean it's "right".
Few if any of us here would actually say that Polygamy or stonging a rebellious teenager is morally desirable. And few of us would say things like indoor ipods, tamales, or wearing two different kinds of fibers at once are morally undesirable even though the later are either not mentioned in the bible, from a different culture and/or time, or "condemned" in the OT.
I can see why many people practiced polygamy back then (besides what guys would call the "obvious benefits"), More wives=more descendants. And in that period in time for those particular people, this was a very very desirable thing, and essential for survival.
In our culture today that is not the case. And for many reasons, Polygamy is morally undesirable, and alot of it is based on how we in this time and this culture view marriage, and the expectations we have from it. It's not WRONG, it's not "not of God" it's just different.
It would be silly for God, if God truly is the one creator and God of all to react to every people in every culture and every time the same. Reading the bible tells us that this is truly not the case at all. It's also probably inaccurate to assume that the way God and Humanity are viewed can vary alot from time to time, culture to culture. It doesn't mean that God is differnt, it means that our perception of God, and how we choose to record and communicate that perception of God is different. Not to mention that the people we're trying to communicate to and with in different cultures and different times are just very different.
Just like Polygamy had (and may still have) it's benefits, which at some point seemed to outweigh the negatives (like more descendants= greater chance for survival) Polyandry does as well. I'm not super familiar with polyandrous cultures, but those I've learned about briefly are very simple people, very happy, very peaceful and loving (not saying they're all this way) I don't think God is angry with them. I wish I knew more about the benefits of this type of society a little better, but I have not studied polyandrous cultures in depth, maybe someone who has can help me out here. One thing I did notice though was lots of interaction between father and son. Fathers playing with, joking with, teaching, and helping their sons.Which is easier to do if you only have one, as opposed to 50 or 60 or even 4. And the children having brothers and sisters to play with, and the mothers and fathers working hard and working together. I saw respect for the women by the men, and vice versa.
Not saying this is a utopia, every culture and every social structure, every marriage structure has it's flaws.
That's the beauty of our God. God meets us where we're at and loves us where we're at. Just because one people wrote the OT, doesn't mean that everything they did that wasn't specifically "condemned" was morally desirable. Most of us can see that that's far from the truth, it's just that God met and loved and accepted them, as God does with us in our time too, where they where at.
What we learn from Jesus is that God is not the God of one people, not a local deity, but rather there is one God, one creator of everything who is the God of Everyone. God shows US here today so much grace so much acceptance and so much love, even though sometimes I honestly wonder why, because we can be pretty crappy people sometimes, but God still meets us where we're at regardless of our cultural constructs of marriage.
I can't identify with the Jewish people much more than anyone else culturally, after all my ancestors where over in Western Europe busy being pagans thousands of years ago. And even though they might not have realized it, they had a God, the one true God of ALL who loved them and wanted good things for them just as God does for us today and for all people everywhere. The message of the new testament to me is God is One, God is Love, and love because you are loved, because we are loved, every one of us. And that's beautiful.

 

[Rebekka]

I won't talk about God or the Bible here if that's alright with you all - others have done that already, and others may do it after this post. Fine with me. I will only give my personal opinion of polygamy.

First of all, I hate sexism. It irks me that the word 'polygamy' generally refers to one husband with multiple wives, not the other way around which technically would fall under this term (poly being greek for multiple, and gamy meaning marriage). Why use the specific word (polyandry - anèr meaning man) for one version of polygamy, and not use the specific word for the other? The fact that we say 'polygamy' when we mean (almost always) the 1 man - more wives version, which is called polygyny (gynè = woman), is sexist in itself: it assumes that men have the right to have multiple women, but women don't have the right to have multiple men. If you want to promote polygamy, FINE, but then be fair and promote both versions, polygyny AND polyandry! Or if you won't, then admit that you're being sexist.

I have problems with polygamy because I have jealousy issues. I simply DO NOT want to share my husband. Heck, I even disliked it that he had had premarital sex, long before he met me! (That's why I'm against premarital sex, at least for me or my husband - it leads to jealousy, it brings hurt. This may not be so for all people, so I won't judge others, but I personally think that one man/one woman for life is the best way to avoid pain and jealousy.) That would never work. He has chosen me for the rest of his life, forsaking all others. I would not have married him if the possibility were there to add more wives. It means something to me that I am the most important person in my husband's life. He is the most important one in mine.

Obviously I wouldn't want to have multiple husbands either - my husband doesn't want to share me, and I don't want to make love to other men - the though alone makes me sick.

We don't want kids, so there are no benefits to us having multiple spouses. Other benefits than more offspring could be in cases where one spouse has a much higher sex drive than the other: then an additional spouse may be a solution. And there may be other benefits. Still it would never work for my husband and me, and although I will never say that polygyny is ungodly - it is in the Bible after all, and I know that God loves all people anyway - , still I would personally not feel comfortable with polygamous couples. Call me narrowminded. I can't stand sexism, and I have problems with religions that allow men to have multiple wives but not vice versa, or that see women as inferior to men in other ways. I believe in equality in marriage, and a polygamous marriage (whether it is polygynous or polyandrous) is not a marriage of equality.

But this is just my personal opinion, it is not based on theology.

 

[plmarquette]

Polygamy with the Mormons was said to replace the numbers , deminished by attrition , sickness , and battles between Navoo and Utah .. and the sects that practice it today , are floundering in the inability of 1 man to support / care for multiple wives and children , which was the case back in the old covenant .

when 4-5 out of every 7 marriages fail , because of offenses , differences , problems ... lack of maturity , unreasonable expectations ... monogamy is deemed a better scheme of things ..

in genesis it speaks of a man , leaving his folks , to become one with his wife (singular) , which both Jesus and Paul refer to in the gospel and epistle ..

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Forgive me, I thought I was in the 'Christian' Forum??.
I was not referring to other cultures.

I thought we would at least have the Word of YHWH (God) in common, whether or not we have the same understanding, we use the bible in this section,
that was my understanding.

I was merely, but without using the myriad of supportive scriptures, referring to the Biblical examples and instruction.

If you can find instructions to support anything other than 'one man - one ( or more ) wives, I would be very curious to know them.

That's why not!

love
stew

Relax. I was just asking a question. I would have appreciated any scriptural support on it. I ask questions to expand my knowledge base. I've always wondered about this topic but have yet to take the time and explore it like I have others. You'll see all I've done in this thread is ask questions. I haven't participated in offering any solutions.

 

[JustBoo]

I hate polygamy.

It is , at it's core , a sexist practice. Polygamy is generaly actually polygyny ( having multiple wives) and historically cultures that practice it are not respectful of 'their women'. It dehumanizes women , making them into property or baby-factories. Marriage as a loving partnership is not compatible with polygyny ( or polygamy in general) - how can we treasure and defer to our spouse when we have 7 or 8 of them?
The idea of polygyny ( or polygamy) is disgusting to me . . . why God allowed it I have yet to understand but I personally would think it immoral based on the law of love -it is not loving to treat others as property.

 

[dies-l]

I hate polygamy.

It is , at it's core , a sexist practice. Polygamy is generaly actually polygyny ( having multiple wives) and historically cultures that practice it are not respectful of 'their women'. It dehumanizes women , making them into property or baby-factories. Marriage as a loving partnership is not compatible with polygyny ( or polygamy in general) - how can we treasure and defer to our spouse when we have 7 or 8 of them?
The idea of polygyny ( or polygamy) is disgusting to me . . . why God allowed it I have yet to understand but I personally would think it immoral based on the law of love -it is not loving to treat others as property.

Although, on a personal level, I am inclined to agree with you, we should be mindful in making such judgments that we are imposing our western twenty-first century notions of "love" onto peoples that don't necessarily share those notions. For example, in another culture, it may be deemed the most loving thing a man can do to offer financial support to as many women as he is financially capable of. Thus, in such cultures, it may be considered unloving for a rich man to enter into a monogamous marriage, because, in doing so, he is not adequately sharing his wealth among other women. In our culture, we tend to place high value on the emotional and psychological elements of love. Other cultures have and do place a significant value on a monetary aspect of love. Although I tend to be more attracted to the modern western notion, it seems that it would be somewhat presumptuous of me to assume that our notions of love are somehow better or more accurate in the absence of scriptural or other evidence in support of this conclusion.