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Is the bible true?

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philadiddle

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When looking at the book of mormon, there are some obvious flaws with it's historical accuracy. There are cities talked about in north america with millions of ppl and great wars fought, yet no artifacts or signs of these settlements. There are recordings of certain metals used in eras they weren't used in, cattle that weren't around yet, cloths that weren't invented yet, etc etc.

I can look at that and know that the Book of Mormon isn't a historical book, even though it claims to be. It is not the word of God, as it claims to be.

We can see the same logic applied to many creation myths like that of the Greek gods etc. It's no wonder ppl like Richard Dawkins think religion is rubbish, especially when it comes to the bible. There is so much evidence that the earth is older then 6k years, and so much evidence that we evolved, that, in the same way we can study the acuracy of the Book of Mormon, we can tell that the literal reading of Genesis isn't historically true.

The answer to this is quite simple. Genesis is not meant to be read literally, but rather, as allegory to express theological truths.

It's often said that if Genesis isn't literal, that if there was no original sin as described in the creation accounts, then the rest of Christian theology lies in shambles. But I see it the other way around. If Genesis must be taken literally for the rest of the bible to be true, then, just like the Book of Mormon, it can't be the word of God.

So back to my original question. Is genesis supposed to be taken literally, putting the bible on the shelf with the rest of the myths and false religions? Or is genesis supposed to be read for it's theological truths, and not as science, which would keep the validity of the bible intact, and allow it to be true?
 

Taure

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Hmm...I had a big problem with this recently, until I heard someone speak on a related topic and it was very revealing to me.

A person was giving a talk on the Pslams, and was speaking about how they are worship songs - we're not supposed to analyse them intellectually or anything like that, we're supposed to experience them.

I then thought about how this could be applied to the whole Bible. There are some parts of the Bible that are, quite obviously, wrong. The Genesis account does not comply with modern science. In 3 Gospels Jesus' death is on one day, but in the other it is moved back a day for symbolic meaning. In one of the Gospels the "Cleansing of the Temple" is moved to the beginning of Jesus' Ministry, rather than at the end where the other Gospels place it, and so on.

But, if you look past all these factual inaccuracies, and look a the Bible as a whole, and live it, and experience it, then you come to a greater truth.

Do you not feel a thrill when you worship? Does it not feel good to serve others?

And there you have your answer.

I hope this helps.
 
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Iosias

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mythbuster

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AV1611,

sola scripture and interpreting the Bible with the Bible.

Paul wrote " Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts..." II Cor. 4:6. So here Paul clearly allegorizes Gen. 1:3, and ties the shining of the first day light to our experience of God in our hearts.

In I Cor 10:4 Paul writes " And all drank the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ." Again we see how Paul allegorized historical events for the benefit of our enjoyment of the Lord.

"Was not our heart burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was opening to us the Scriptures?" Luke 24:32
 
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Taure

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I would like you to prove this for me using two principles: Sola Scriptura and Scripture interprets Scripture.

This is like saying, I would like you to prove to me the Bible is not true - but you can only use principles that say that the Bible is true. It's utterly pointless.
 
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Assyrian

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I would like you to prove this for me using two principles: Sola Scriptura and Scripture interprets Scripture. :)

Creation in Six Days: A Defense of the Traditional Reading of Genesis One

Studies in Genesis One

Did God Create in 6 Days?
Sure, Moses himself didn't take God's days literally. Read Psalm 90. Nor would he have included chapter 2, with a completely different order of creation, if both chapters were meant to be read literally. Jesus denied God ever literally stopped work John 5:17, the writer of Hebrews saw the God's seventh day rest as a rest that is still going on 'today' Heb 3&4. Paul treated Adam and Eve as an allegorical picture of marriage and Adam as a figure of Christ. He also saw the sabbath as a shadow of what is to come in Christ rather than a commemoration of of what happened.

On the the other hand I cannot think of a single writer in the bible after Moses who even suggests a literal interpretation of the Genesis days.
 
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Iosias

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Paul wrote " Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts..." II Cor. 4:6. So here Paul clearly allegorizes Gen. 1:3, and ties the shining of the first day light to our experience of God in our hearts.

:confused: 2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." I do not see St. Paul doing anything of the sort you allege he does.

In I Cor 10:4 Paul writes " And all drank the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ." Again we see how Paul allegorized historical events for the benefit of our enjoyment of the Lord.

That is called typology and is irrelevant to the issue at hand. :)
 
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Iosias

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This is like saying, I would like you to prove to me the Bible is not true - but you can only use principles that say that the Bible is true. It's utterly pointless.

No, what I wish you to see is that your position does not come from Scripture but is rather a view imposed upon Scripture and therefore Scripture is made to fit your preconceived ideas which you have got from somewhere else.

From basic hermenutical principles you are unable to state and defend your own position. :)
 
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Iosias

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Sure, Moses himself didn't take God's days literally.

That is you statement let us look at your evidence. :)

Read Psalm 90.

Done, and your point is.........:scratch:

Nor would he have included chapter 2, with a completely different order of creation, if both chapters were meant to be read literally.

That is not a different order of creation...provide your evidence please.

"close examination of the text will show that what is recorded in 1:1-2:3 is an introductory summary of the events of creation, and that what begins with verse 2:4 is a more detailed account of the Creation of mankind. There is nothing in the two Creation accounts that contradicts. Genesis 2:4-25 should be understood as a further explanation of what happened in Genesis 1:26-31. It is comparable to taking a magnifying glass to Genesis 1:26-31 to take a closer look at the Creation of mankind." (see)

Paul treated Adam and Eve as an allegorical picture of marriage and Adam as a figure of Christ.

Typology not allegory as you mean it.

He also saw the sabbath as a shadow of what is to come in Christ rather than a commemoration of of what happened.

And this comes from?

May I suggest Hoeksema's Proper Sabbath Observance (The Sojourner's Sabbath) :thumbsup:
 
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shernren

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I would like you to prove this for me using two principles: Sola Scriptura and Scripture interprets Scripture. :)

Creation in Six Days: A Defense of the Traditional Reading of Genesis One

Studies in Genesis One

Did God Create in 6 Days?

Sure. The reification of historicity makes the Bible unintelligible in many places. To show it I will use only two verses and ask you to think about them:

The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.
(Judges 1:19 NIV)

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
(Philippians 3:10 NIV)

Now if the Biblical record is all about recounting historicity, and if doctrinal correctness is based chiefly on historicity, then Judah's failure is as historical as the resurrection of Jesus. So why aren't they equally meritorious bases for our doctrines of God's power? Why is it that we praise God for raising Jesus from the dead, but never as "the God who is unable to overcome iron chariots?"

The truth of Scripture is not in verifiable historicity; it is in divinely authorized significance.
 
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Assyrian

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Sorry AV, this post got lost somewhere.
That is you statement let us look at your evidence.
Originally Posted by Assyrian
Read Psalm 90.
Done, and your point is.........
Moses writes a Psalm full of Genesis imagery. He discussed God's creation of the earth and the mountains and man formed from dust returning to dust. Then he goes on to tell us what a day in God's sight is really like
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. This verse is so important for our understanding of God's timescale that it is quoted in the NT by Peter saying 'do not forget this one thing' as he discusses God's timing in a great sweep from the creation to the end of the world, and the mistake people make when they think God can be held to a human calendar.
That is not a different order of creation...provide your evidence please.
Sure. Genesis 1 has God creating plants, sea creatures and birds, animals then man and woman.
In Genesis 2 God creates man, plants, animals and birds and then woman.
"close examination of the text will show that what is recorded in 1:1-2:3 is an introductory summary of the events of creation, and that what begins with verse 2:4 is a more detailed account of the Creation of mankind. There is nothing in the two Creation accounts that contradicts. Genesis 2:4-25 should be understood as a further explanation of what happened in Genesis 1:26-31. It is comparable to taking a magnifying glass to Genesis 1:26-31 to take a closer look at the Creation of mankind." (see)
Nah, Genesis 2:4-25 is a narrative, a story of God creating Adam and Eve and the plants and animals and birds and stuff. People may try to chop it up into different bits to escape the problem of contradiction, but Genesis 2 is a narrative with a plot and storyline running all the way through. And the sequence of events in the story completely contradicts the sequence in chapter 1.
Typology not allegory as you mean it.
Typology is allegory used by literalists
And this comes from?
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
May I suggest Hoeksema's Proper Sabbath Observance (The Sojourner's Sabbath)
No thanks, I am one of those who esteems all days alike Rom 14:5
 
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