When that which is perfect has come

[RefrusRevlis]

I have started this thread as a result of some great points raised in another thread. I feel this matter was a little buried as the other thread was primarily about something else:

To what does the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 refer?
It is important to consider this as it has a direct bearing upon the cessation of spiritual gifts. My position is that the perfect (complete) is the sum of the parts (the partial knowledge and prophesy mentioned in verse 9). This means that the gifts were partial and came together to deliver something complete. What were the miraculous knowledge, tongues and prophecy for? - To reveal the New Testament. The New Testament is "the complete". The method for bestowal of the miraculous gifts was the laying on of the Apostles' hands (Acts 8:18). With the death of the last Apostle, the method for bestowal of gifts passed; and the gifts and the need for gifts vanished.
Refrus

 

[annie1speed]

Yay! Maybe get a chance to redeem myself. I've done some more study on that since my earlier posts.

 

[Loveaboveall]

So you are saying the New Testament is what is spoken of as "perfect". I have heard this argument, and on the surface it sounds logical. For me, IMO, when you study the rest of the scriptures on the subject of miraculous gifts it just doesn't harmonize. Look at these:

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Are there still people in this world that need to be ministered to? Has the body of Christ become unified in the faith? Has everyone in the body of Christ become a perfect man, measuring up to the stature of the example Jesus gave?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

As long as man is on this earth there will be a need to preach Christ Jesus. These gifts were intended to facilitate the preaching and thus until ALL have come to Jesus for perfection there will be a need for ALL the gifts of the Spirit. That said we know that not all will accept salvation and so we can conclude at the last day when those who rejected Christ are destroyed than All that are living will be perfect and then there will be no more need to minister to people to come to Jesus because all will have accepted Him.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now, I know that Peter spoke of this prophecies fulfillment at pentecost....

But was the prophecy COMPLETELY fulfilled then. It was not. From the context of the whole prophecy, what happened at pentecost was a foreshadowing of what will happen just before Jesus returns. It was the former rain... with the latter rain still to come. I know this may go against much of what people believe but give it some thought. If the whole prophecy was fulfilled in the days of the apostles then why does John make the same prediction in Revelation?

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I realize that there is not a consensus as to how to interpret the book of revelation... However, we do know that it was written after Peter died and most believe it was written at the very end of John's life. If all the apostles had died and these things still had not happened then, How do we interpret what Peter said in Acts 2? Unless you want to say Peter was wrong, we must interpret it as a partial fulfillment which can be in harmony with the idea of a former and latter rain.

And if a latter rain is still to come, then there is still yet many people who will prophesy!

 

[annie1speed]

Loveaboveall,

Too many points to digest at once!

You wrote:

So you are saying the New Testament is what is spoken of as "perfect". I have heard this argument, and on the surface it sounds logical. For me, IMO, when you study the rest of the scriptures on the subject of miraculous gifts it just doesn't harmonize. Look at these:


Quote:
Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Are there still people in this world that need to be ministered to?
Jesus said this would always be the case when He said the poor you have with you always, andof course I don't know the verse.
Has the body of Christ become unified in the faith?
Ummmm, depends on how you define the body of Christ.
Has everyone in the body of Christ become a perfect man, measuring up to the stature of the example Jesus gave?
Is this how you define the perfecting of the saints?

If you continue on through verse 14: "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive." I believe this sheds more light on the subject. How do we know how to be saved, how to live a Godly life, and what to expect in the hereafter? We know this because of what the Bible tells us. Until the Bible was complete, the Early Christians did not have that. Sooooooo, they needed these special gifts.

More later.

Annie

 

[Loveaboveall]

IMO, the early church had a far greater advantage then we do today. They had those men who walked and talked with Jesus 3 1/2 yrs that they could go to and ask questions. They also had Paul who made it his mission to spread the gospel to the gentiles and keep them from being carried away by every wind of doctrine! All we have is a few letters that were written by some of these men. Now, I am not saying that the Bible is not sufficient for us to know Jesus and salvation. But look at the early church even with these men there making sure that they did not stray from the gospel truth... 7 letters are written to 7 churches and 5 of them have strong rebukes about their doctrine or the condition of their hearts. This is with the constant overseeing of the Apostles! The Bible is sufficient for doctrine, yes, but the power of the Holy Spirit must be their to help people interpret correctly what the bible says! Also, to preach the gospel to the world requires the power of the Holy Spirit, the words Peter spoke would have done nothing if the Holy Spirit had not been pricking the hearts of the people. If we do away with the Holy Spirit and the power He brings then we have NO chance of converting people to the truth.

 

[JDIBe]

I tend to take the conventional view that it refers to the completion of the Scriptures for the following reasons....

1. Tongues and "sign gifts" did cease soon after the death of the Apostles. Jesus said the purpose of miracles was to show what He said was true. ("...for the Jews require a sign...") Once the Scriptures were in place, the need for "sign gifts" ceased. (If someone told you something about God, where would you look for conformation? What if a sign-producing preacher told you something contrary to the Bible? Who would you believe? Well the Bible, of course! So then the need for a "sign producing" preacher is no more.)

2. "That which is perfect" cannot be love. It leads one to the conclusion that only young Christians are given Spiritual gifts and mature leaders are not.

3. "That which is perfect" cannot refer to Jesus because the Greek pronoun used is gender nominative, properly translated "that". Jesus is not a "that". (Call your wife a "that" sometime and see what it gets you...)

 

[annie1speed]

JD, it's good to see you! Annie

 

[RefrusRevlis]

So you are saying the New Testament is what is spoken of as "perfect". I have heard this argument, and on the surface it sounds logical. For me, IMO, when you study the rest of the scriptures on the subject of miraculous gifts it just doesn't harmonize. Look at these:
Quote:



Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Are there still people in this world that need to be ministered to? Has the body of Christ become unified in the faith? Has everyone in the body of Christ become a perfect man, measuring up to the stature of the example Jesus gave?

The perfect man in Ephesians 4:13, refers to "the body of Christ" (the church) not individuals. The word perfect does not mean "Absolutely perfect, (as Christ is), but rather "mature". The following definitions of "perfect" (telios) are from Strong's Enhanced Lexicon: "1 brought to its end, finished. 2 wanting nothing necessary to completeness. 3 perfect. 4 that which is perfect. 4a consummate human integrity and virtue. 4b of men. 4b1 full grown, adult, of full age, mature."
The church was working with partial and incomplete knowledge before the completion of the scriptures.
What is the unity of the faith? I believe "the sum of what we believe as Christians". At the time of the writing of 1 Corinthians, Paul said, "for we know in part and we prophesy in part". There were bits of the faith around, but the whole was to be put together. Obviously this was to occur at a yet future time to the writing of both epistles. The result of the unity is seen in Eph 4:14, it is that:
"we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,"
This does not refer to a time (only) when the church reaches heaven, or else the passage is saying the church will be tossed around by winds of doctrine etc until the return of Christ. The maturity of the church is anticipated before then. The completed NT allows us to resist being "tossed around by every wind of doctrine". We can and are to "contend earnestly for the faith once and for all (time) delivered to the saints" (Jude 3)
Ephesians 4:7-8 says

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.  Therefore He says:“When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
This is the context of the passage, the gifts were given to men. Some of the roles mentioned in verse 11, by definition include spiritual gifts, others do not, necessarily require them.​

Also another thought is: the use of the word "till" in the statement does not necessarily mean that when the unity came, then all of the roles mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 would pass. Consider the use of until in the following (John 5:17):
"But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”"
Does the use of the word "until" imply that the Father stopped working after the point in time at which Jesus made the statement?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


As long as man is on this earth there will be a need to preach Christ Jesus. These gifts were intended to facilitate the preaching and thus until ALL have come to Jesus for perfection there will be a need for ALL the gifts of the Spirit. That said we know that not all will accept salvation and so we can conclude at the last day when those who rejected Christ are destroyed than All that are living will be perfect and then there will be no more need to minister to people to come to Jesus because all will have accepted Him.

The completed New Testament better facilitates the preaching of the gospel than the gifts. It was not the miraculous signs, but what the signs pointed to (i.e. the word of God) that was the most important.
The word perfect, once again, does not mean "absolutely perfect", but rather "mature"
Philippians 3:15-16 says:
 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
The word mature is the same Greek word "telios", which is translates as perfect elsewhere. This verse shows the possibility of perfection, while yet on the earth.
Also, the aim of Paul and his companions was to " preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus". Paul and his companions are now quite clearly dead, but of course Paul's ministry continues through the word, that is, the completed word of God.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now, I know that Peter spoke of this prophecies fulfillment at pentecost....

But was the prophecy COMPLETELY fulfilled then. It was not. From the context of the whole prophecy, what happened at pentecost was a foreshadowing of what will happen just before Jesus returns. It was the former rain... with the latter rain still to come. I know this may go against much of what people believe but give it some thought. If the whole prophecy was fulfilled in the days of the apostles then why does John make the same prediction in Revelation?

Huh? I don't get your point here. I don't think many people would argue that the day of Pentecost was all there was to the miraculous. Acts 8:18 says that by the laying on of the apostles' hands, the Holy Spirit was given. The apostles are now dead, they can't lay hands on anyone.
You need to give more detail about you "former rain...with the latter rain to come argument", you haven't really given me much of an idea what you mean.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


I realize that there is not a consensus as to how to interpret the book of revelation... However, we do know that it was written after Peter died and most believe it was written at the very end of John's life. If all the apostles had died and these things still had not happened then, How do we interpret what Peter said in Acts 2? Unless you want to say Peter was wrong, we must interpret it as a partial fulfillment which can be in harmony with the idea of a former and latter rain.

And if a latter rain is still to come, then there is still yet many people who will prophesy!

I really don't see your point in quoting this passage, I can't see that it says what you think it says.


Refrus

 

[Splayd]

What were the miraculous knowledge, tongues and prophecy for? - To reveal the New Testament.

It was not the miraculous signs, but what the signs pointed to (i.e. the word of God) that was the most important.

These quotes highlight a recurring theme in your posts which I see as problematic. I recall similar notions in other threads where you infer (or simply state) that the Holy Spirit and faith both come from/through scripture.

I'd suggest that the most correct answer for all of those instances isn't "scripture", "God's word" or "the New Testament"... but "GOD". The miraculaous knowledge, tongues and prophecy were to reveal GOD. The miraculous signs pointed to GOD. Scripture isn't the end in itself but simply another means to an end. It also points to GOD. Likewise the Holy Spirit and Faith come from... GOD! Now - I don't want to downplay the importance of scripture. It's very very important, but it isn't the end. It's still just a means. It might seem like a minor point, but it can be a major one. Just because it's good doesn't mean it can't become an idol for you.

Peace

 

[JDIBe]

JD, it's good to see you! Annie

Hi.

 

[Apollos1]

1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Most SG proponents argue their position from SILENCE. There is not ONE passage that “specifically advocates” that SGs are to continue today!

It is not necessary to base our understanding of spiritual gifts on the “silence” of the scriptures. I believe that the scriptures are complete (2 Pt. 1:3, 1 Cor. 2:10-13, Eph. 3:3-5) and that we must have scripture for any teaching or practice to be “by faith” – Romans 10:17, cf. Col. 3:17, 2 Peter 4:11. Christians walk by faith - not “sight”! Silence is not authoritative and it cannot produce faith!

1 Corinthians 12 lists the –9- spiritual gifts. They are:

-Word of Knowledge (logos sophia)
-Word of Wisdom (llogos gnosis)
-Faith (pistis)
-Gift of healing (iama)
-Working of Miracles (energema dunamis)
-Prophecy (propheteia)
-Discerning of Spirits (diakrisis pneuma)
-Tongues (glossa)
-Interpretation of Tongues (hermeneia glossa)

1 Corinthians 13 tells us about the DURATION of spiritual gifts - how long the gifts were/are to last. 1 Corinthians 14 describes the USE of spiritual gifts.

God granted these gifts to men through the HS. I do not question that God did grant such gifts, nor do I question that He can do such. The question is does God give these gifts to men today?

The PURPOSE of spiritual gifts was to reveal the word and confirm it! Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, cf. Acts 2:22, 4:33, 15:8. The word has been revealed and the word has been confirmed. “The faith” has been delivered once for all time – Jude 3 !

IF the word of God is indeed to be believed and if it is also our source of faith, and if all that His word contains is to be taken as true, then the purpose for which these gifts were given has been accomplished. Therefore spiritual gifts are no longer needed.

Much like a notarized legal document, the written word reveals and confirms itself for us today - being revealed by reading or hearing and confirmed to us today by the events of miracles/signs/& wonders recorded therein – John 20:30-31. The thought of “continuous confirmation” destroys the very purpose of initial confirmation. Such is superfluous !

1 Corinthians 13: –

Take note that Paul begins in 13:1-3 showing the “best way” as mentioned in 12:31 - the way better than the “best gifts”. Paul says that if one speaks in tongues (glossa), prophecy (propheteia), has all faith & knowledge (pistis & gnosis), and gives all that he has including his life, and has not love – it profits nothing. SGs without love are useful/advantageous for nothing. Love is more important than SGs!

In verses 4-7 Paul uses -15- qualities of love in contrast to the problems SGs were creating for the Corinthians. Love is kind, envies not, is not proud, behaves properly, rejoices in truth, endures all things… In contrast to the qualities that SGs exposed in the Corinthians, the qualities of love are better!

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away: whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. ASV

Verse 8 - In this verse Paul juxtaposes the endurance of love with the temporality of spiritual gifts.)

Prophecies (propheteia) – they shall be done away. (katargeo)
Tongues (glossa) – they shall cease. (pauo)
Knowledge (gnosis) – it shall be done away. (katargeo)

Paul uses these –3- gifts listed in verse 8 as representative of all spiritual gifts, much like a synecdoche. Paul does the same in verse 9 using only –2- gifts as representative of the whole.

Spiritual gifts - the means of revealing and confirming the will of God to man - were to be done away. But when?

Verse 9:
Knowledge – in part.
Prophesy – in part.

Prophecy (speaking forth the mind & counsel of God) and knowledge (to be taking in knowledge or coming to know) wereonly partial at that time and were only given a part at a time. Spiritual gifts made prophecy and knowledge possible and certain. Partial prophecy and knowledge were to cease also according to verse 10. But when?

Most agree with this exegesis up to this point. The disagreement usually begins with the explanation when in verse 10: (continued below in next post...)

 

[Apollos1]

Most agree with this exegesis up to this point. The disagreement usually begins with the explanation when in verse 10:

- “but when that which is perfect is come…”
(Literally –“when the perfect thing comes…”) This is the “when”.

Two thoughts are prominent as to what occasion Paul is speaking of:

-The return of Christ -OR-
-The completion of the revelation of the word of God.

(The person of Christ can in no fashion be forced contextually into 1Cor. 13:10. Some settle for “eschatological innuendo”, both in using the phrase “the end of time” in reference to this passage and by attempting to infer that some words in the passage carry some eschatological “overtones”. They don’t! It is from this viewpoint – the end of time - that I shall approach verse 10.)

The completion of God’s revelation is the proper explanation for verse 10. There is NOTHING in this context to suggest that Paul is speaking in regards to the end of time (or Christ) and there is EVERYTHING to suggest that he is speaking about knowledge, prophecy, and the “perfection” of it !!

Paul first compares a “that which” is perfect with a “that which” that is in part, with an underlying contrast. This indicates that the two things Paul speaks of here are the same type of thing, although they not of the same quality. The first “that which” is still “in part” (to ek merous) and has the quality of being incomplete, while the second “that which” is “perfect” (to teleion), and has the quality of coming to be completed, lacking nothing. An example of this would be to compare a partially inflated tire with a properly inflated tire – the same type of thing are compared, but they are not of the same quality.

The word “perfect” is rendered from the Greek word “teleios”. This word signifies a person or thing that has reached its end, finished, complete, perfect; wanting nothing necessary to completeness. (Thayer & Vine both referenced.)

This defining of “teleios” as something coming to completeness is supported by the continuing context of the passage. In the next 3 verses Paul uses -2- analogies to exemplify exactly this. Please note that the context is set in verse 10. The analogies must clarify what has already been said in verse 10. (Analogies do not set the context, but are given to exemplify it.)

The first analogy uses an example of physical development coming to “completeness” and the second analogy uses an example of cognitive development coming to “completeness”. Let us look at Paul’s discourse in verses 11-13.

Paul’s first analogy – verse 11:

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

In this verse Paul describes the process of maturing – the transition of a child becoming an adult. Paul states in this analogy of verse 11 that once maturity is finished – that is, once the development process has come to completion - then at that time something is done away with. Here it is childish ways that are done away with. That which once served a purpose ceases - the process is finished/complete. (Notice -“that which” was “in part” was an immature person– “that which” is “perfected” is the mature person.)

The application made with the revelation of God’s word is this: once a man is full grown/mature (once the word is fully revealed and confirmed), the childish ways (ei. spiritual gifts) which served to bring man to maturity (the spiritual gifts used to reveal and confirm God’s word) are done away/cease. The purpose of the means of revelation (spiritual gifts) has been completed!

Paul’s second analogy - verse 12:

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

In this second analogy of verse 12 Paul uses looking in a mirror to present the same idea of coming to a conclusion or finality, but logically or intellectually in this example.

The word “darkly”, or “riddle” in some translations, is from the Greek word “ainigmati” literally meaning “in an enigma”. A riddle is something to be figured out or solved. It requires a logical process over time to come to the solution – a little part of knowledge is gained at a time. When the process of thought or logic is complete, finished, or “perfect”, a solution is then given for the riddle, or an answer is given for a puzzle. When the answer is given, the logical process used to obtain that finish ceases – it has served its purpose! (“That which” was “in part” could not solve the “riddle” – “that which” is “complete” will solve it.)

Paul says they were seeing “darkly”; everything was not yet seen clearly or revealed. But when that which is perfect is come, the “darkness” or “riddle” is solved, and we will see clearly or “face to face”. Please follow what Paul is saying here. In this analogy “face-to-face” is talking about how one sees in the mirror, not WHO one sees in the mirror.

They did not see all things clearly before the “riddle” was revealed – it was “dark”. But “then”, when “perfection” has come (or as in this analogy, a solution to the riddle) we will see all clearly (we will understand) like we were looking at ourselves in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling how well we will understand (“see”) once “perfection” has come.

In verse 12b Paul finishes this thought by stating that now he knows (literally, is taking in knowledge) only in part – but “then” he shall know fully or completely. How well shall we know? Paul says “even as also I was fully known”. This is in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling us how well we are going to know “then”. (cf. James 1:25.)

13 But now abideth (MENO) faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Paul concludes this chapter with the same topic he began it with - by speaking of love (the “best way”). The close of the chapter presents another contrast & another hurdle for those who claim that SGs were not to cease after the completion of God’s revelation.

The word for “abideth” here is the Greek word meno, which means: to remain, abide, not to depart, to last, endure.

Paul says that only –3- things “Now abide” – faith, hope, and love. This is in direct contrast to those things that would cease – tongues, knowledge, & prophecy (SGs)! The point Paul makes to the gift-loving Corinthians is that faith, hope, & love will remain – these are permanent, while the SGs will cease – SGs will not remain.

Now, of these three things, only one will continue into eternity. When we are with Christ in eternity, faith and hope will have ended. Only love will last into eternity.
So, here is Paul's "timeline":

- Miraculous gifts will cease, but faith, hope and love will abide until eternity begins, and of these three, love is the greatest as it will continue even into eternity.

Now the thing that makes this problematic for SG proponents is the view that miraculous gifts will continue until “the end of time” (Christ returns and takes us away to be "like Him.") Such a view completely obliterates the comparison Paul is making and forces us to conclude that miraculous gifts will not cease, fail, vanish away, or be done away at all, but will “abide” as faith, hope, and love are to.

The “end of time” view is in direct contradiction of the point that Paul closes this chapter with.

“But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.” ASV

 

[Loveaboveall]

Thankyou for such a thorough and thought out explanation of this topic!

I do believe that your conclusions are based on false premises from the beginning which then render your conclusion false. For instance:

Paul lists MORE than 9 SG, here is your list:

-Word of Knowledge (logos sophia)
-Word of Wisdom (llogos gnosis)
-Faith (pistis)
-Gift of healing (iama)
-Working of Miracles (energema dunamis)
-Prophecy (propheteia)
-Discerning of Spirits (diakrisis pneuma)
-Tongues (glossa)
-Interpretation of Tongues (hermeneia glossa

Here are the ones you left out:

Apostles
Teachers
helps
governments

And then there are SG Paul lists from other letters:

Evangelists
Pastor/Elder See Eph 4:11

So to say that there are only 9 SG is a false conclusion seeing as Paul lists several more. This was a BIG oversight, because today elders/pastors, teachers, and helpers are still considered to be a part of the church structure.

Speaking of church structure, this was the point of 1 cor 12. Paul lists all of these gifts as pertaining to the BODY of the church. Not all can be given the same gifts because we need ALL the parts of the body for the church to function as it was intended. And its function was NOT to "complete the scriptures" it was to spread the gospel the world!

You use Mark 16:20 to prove that signs/SG were to complete the word of God, but this is not what is meant by this text:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

The word spoken of here is the "gospel". This was confirmed in the hearts of the people that it was preached to by the "signs" that were performed by those preaching. One must ask the question: If signs were needed to confirm the words of the apostles who walked with Jesus and were known by the Jews as Jesus disciples, it would stand to reason that they would associate the "signs" Jesus did with the apostles, right? And, since the apostes did need signs to confirm to the people that they were of God, how much more would we need those today, teaching the gospel to people who can only "read" about those signs of Jesus instead of seeing them or hearing first hand reports of them?

In fact all the verses you gave to support this point that, relies on the false premise that the "word" that was "confirmed" was the scriptures. It was not. It was the gospel of grace. Signs were used to show the people that what they said was from God and to disprove those who would teach against it. How can you say that, these gifts would not be appropriate today with the number of people speaking out against the the gospel of Christ. The same thing is happening today as happened in the time of the early church. If they needed these signs back then, we most certainly need them today!

You say the word confirms itself by what is written in it. This is not good reasoning in my opinion. If you are teaching a person the gospel from the bible and another person is telling them it is a bunch of hooey, how then can you refer back to the very thing that is said to be a bunch of hooey to prove that it is not? You must use something outside of what you are trying to prove to be true if someone does not believe in that which you are proving.

For example, say you are telling someone of a great fishing spot that you discovered with HUGE fish. A magazine gave directions to it and so no you are spreading the word about it. As you are telling people this another person comes up and says, I read that magazine and what they say is not true. Don't believe this guy he is feeding you a bunch of hooey! Do you go back to the magazine and show them the pictures of the fish that were caught. Of course not, they could reason those pictures were not true along with the story, they were doctored.

However, what if you open up your ice chest and pull out a 50lb bass. Then there is no doubt you are telling the truth! You CONFIRMED what you said by demonstrating that you were telling the truth! Signs are just like the fish!

But SG are much more than just to confirm the the word of the person who is speaking. They are to uplift Christ's church to help it function properly. An elder does not just become an elder because the people like him and ask him to be. An elder becomes an elder by the Holy spirit empowering him with the gift of eldership.

To that end, this explains what the "perfect" is. Christ's church, against what many believe, is not perfect at this time. There are still many who will become part of the church that are off living a life of sin and have not accepted the gospel. Until each person on this earth has made a decision for or against Christ and Christ returns to glorify His church it will not be perfect and there will be a need for SG to propagate and confirm the word of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Lastly, your conclusions could be rendered false just by comparing it with other scripture. Eph 4 speaks nothing the scriptures as to that which becomes perfect. However, it speaks much about Christ's church.

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

This will not happen until the gospel has been preached to the whole world, and when the gospel has been preached to the whole world the end will come. Can anyone claim to measure to the stature of the fulness of Christ? I know that this verse has not been fulfilled as of yet so I KNOW that the SG are still available today.

 

[Apollos1]

loveabove –

Thanks for your response.

I must take exception to some points you made in your last post, including your mis-applied context of “gifts” between Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12. I said Paul lists -9- spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12. You offered…

>>>Here are the ones you left out:
Apostles
Teachers
helps
governments

And then there are SG Paul lists from other letters:

Evangelists
Pastor/Elder See Eph 4:11

While these you mention are “gifts”, specifically “gifts” (Ephesians 4:8) to the church for the purpose of edification of the saints, the body (4:12), these are not “spiritual gifts” in the context of 1 Corinthians 12, as miraculous manifestation is not necessarily implied..

>>>So to say that there are only 9 SG is a false conclusion seeing as Paul lists several more.

There is no improper conclusion and that there is -9- spiritual gifts certainly is the context of 1 Corinthians 12. You have apparently lost all context as it applies to “gifts”!

>>>This was a BIG oversight, because today elders/pastors, teachers, and helpers are still considered to be a part of the church structure.

What oversight? Yes, these mentioned are still with us today. Is that your point? We STILL have elders and teachers THEREFORE we STILL have “miracles” today??

What about APOSTLES? Do we still have those? I say since we DON”T have aposltles today, we don’t have SGs today! But your basic premise is what defeats this logic from the start, that being that the “gifts” of edification in Ephesians 4 are not the same type of “gifts” that Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 12 – which are miraculous in nature.

>>>Speaking of church structure, this was the point of 1 cor 12. Paul lists all of these gifts as pertaining to the BODY of the church. Not all can be given the same gifts because we need ALL the parts of the body for the church to function as it was intended. And its function was NOT to "complete the scriptures" it was to spread the gospel the world!

All parts of the “body” of Christ can function fully without having miraculous gifts. As you may know not everyone in the early church received a miraculous gift. And the purpose of the miraculous was to 1.) Reveal the Word and to 2.) Confirm that Word – which led to the Word being completed (I think inspiration is covered within the miraculous). Unless there was a miracle of “mass communication”, SGs never “spread” the gospel – people did!

>>>You use Mark 16:20 to prove that signs/SG were to complete the word of God, but this is not what is meant by this text:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

First, HOW did these disciples KNOW the Word? It was revealed to them miraculously. How did the people being preached to KNOW what they preached was the Word? It was confirmedby the miraculous. After all of the Word had been preached and confirmed, the Word was COMPLETE.

>>>…how much more would we need those today, teaching the gospel to people who can only "read" about those signs of Jesus instead of seeing them or hearing first hand reports of them?

It was Paul that said the Jews “seeks signs” (1 Cor. 1:22). But it appears you do also. Paul also said that the “gospel”, not the miraculous, was God’s power to save today – Romans 1:16. You just aren’t happy with what God has provided. YOU need more than what God is offering.

This same argument you present was presented by the RICH man. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus “back from the dead” to warn his 5 brothers not to come to the bad place where he was. What was Abraham’s response? Have you ever noticed the response?? Abraham said…

“They have Moses and the prophets… let them hear them.” !!! (Luke 16:29-31)

“If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rise from the dead.”

The point is, what God has had written for us today MUST suffice for our salvation!


>>>In fact all the verses you gave to support this point that, relies on the false premise that the "word" that was "confirmed" was the scriptures. It was not. It was the gospel of grace.

I think you have made a NON-point here.

>>>How can you say that, these gifts would not be appropriate today with the number of people speaking out against the the gospel of Christ.

I did not say SGs are inappropriate, I say that GOD says they were “done away” with – 1 Cor. 13 – after His Word had been completed in revelation and confirmation. SGs appeared when God decided they would and passed when God decided they would. SGs were given as God decided, used as God decided, and served the purpose that God decided they would.

>>>The same thing is happening today as happened in the time of the early church. If they needed these signs back then, we most certainly need them today!

God has decided differently!

You say the word confirms itself by what is written in it. This is not good reasoning in my opinion.

God confirmed the Word with miracles. Men by inspiration wrote the Word. God says that this Word is what saves today. How much more of a boost does your faith need to believe God?

>>>You must use something outside of what you are trying to prove to be true if someone does not believe in that which you are proving.

Something outside means something more! The obstacle here is YOU. YOU need more than God has provided because your judgment is that more is needed. I guess God just isn’t as wise as YOU. Please tell God what He needs to do – okay?

>>>For example, say you are telling someone of a great fishing spot that you discovered with HUGE fish. A magazine gave directions to it and so no you are spreading the word about it. As you are telling people this another person comes up and says, I read that magazine and what they say is not true. Don't believe this guy he is feeding you a bunch of hooey! Do you go back to the magazine and show them the pictures of the fish that were caught. Of course not, they could reason those pictures were not true along with the story, they were doctored.

And what do you do when these same scoffers claim your “miracles” are fake – nothing more than hocus-pocus, slight of hand, abra-kadabra, or prestidigitation? What will you do? How far must you go? Oh for the joys of FAITH! We walk by FAITH !!!

>>>To that end, this explains what the "perfect" is. Christ's church, against what many believe, is not perfect at this time.

You argument at this point would have been more compelling had you appealed directly to the passage in 1 Corinthians 13 and illustrated verse by verse WHAT “perfect” means and how Paul uses the word in context. This you did not do – this you can not do. The use of the word “perfect” in 1 Cor. 13 has absolutely NO context in relationship to the church or to the end of time.

>>>Lastly, your conclusions could be rendered false just by comparing it with other scripture. Eph 4 speaks nothing the scriptures as to that which becomes perfect. However, it speaks much about Christ's church.

My regrets, but this is simply foolish. As I earlier pointed out, the CONTEXT of the 2 passages is different as are the two types of “gifts” that are mentioned. There is no correlation between the two except the one you assume.


>>>"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

This will not happen until the gospel has been preached to the whole world, and when the gospel has been preached to the whole world the end will come.

Please see Romans 1:8, 1 Thess. 1:8, and Colossians 1:6. So, has the END come?

In kindness I ask that you get your emotions and head together and realize that what you seek in religion is not there – namely the “miraculous”. Give up your idol! SGs have served their purpose and their time has come and gone - just as scriptures say and just as God chose.

God needs you to serve Him with your heart, soul, strength, and mind. It takes all of these and it helps to keep them in balance with each other.

If you have anything to say directly about my exegesis above in reference to 1 Corinthians 13, let me know. Basically, you responded to nothing directly. I don’t know that I will respond much more to your suppositions and qualified scenarios.

 

[Loveaboveall]

There is no point in exegesis if it does not harmonize with other scripture! Especially written by the same author as is Corinthians and Ephesians.

I guess, in your opinon, the gift of prophecy is not a spiritual gift as you say these 2 separate writings on the gifts of the spirit are not the same? If prophecy has "vanished" because something has come that is perfect then this perfectness must be explained in Ephesians because it speaks of prophecy and WHY it is needed and how long it will last. Ephesians is clear it is NOT to confirm the word, but to edify the church and prepare the saints to spread the word! If you are wrong about prophecy then it stands to reason that you are wrong about the other "miraculous" gifts also. Have you ever stopped to think that ALL of the gifts given to us by the spirit are miraculous. Anything given to us by God that we can not explain by science is considered miraculous. Thus any gift of the spirit should be considered miraculous!

Paul CLEARLY says that prophecy will continue, ""Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Please explain how then you can harmonize your "exegesis" with Ephesians 4. Thus far you have avoided this very crucial step in bible interpretation, that it must harmonize with the rest of scripture!

Please see Romans 1:8, 1 Thess. 1:8, and Colossians 1:6. So, has the END come?

What do these scriputres have to do with the above quote from Eph? It says nothing of everyone coming in the unity of the faith. It says that the gospel has been preached in the known world at that time.

 

[Apollos1]

Loveabove –

Allow me to be more specific in the points I am making as you are allowing too much to fall into your cracks of ambiguity.

You said - There is no point in exegesis if it does not harmonize with other scripture! Especially written by the same author as is Corinthians and Ephesians.

I completely agree. So when will you do this? You claim that Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 13 are discussing the same matters. You are yet to make the connection.

I have shown that Ephesians 4 is discussing GIFTS of service that were given to the church (the body) for its edification. Paul is talking spiritual GIFTS as specifically detailed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 & 13 – the exegesis of 13 I have given above.

YOUR claim is this – “Gifts are gifts” meaning you ignore the CONTEXT of the two passages to lump them all together into one big “GIFT” box. So please pay attention to CONTEXT and you may better see how to HARMONIZE scripture!

You said - I guess, in your opinon, the gift of prophecy is not a spiritual gift as you say these 2 separate writings on the gifts of the spirit are not the same? If prophecy has "vanished" because something has come that is perfect then this perfectness must be explained in Ephesians because it speaks of prophecy and WHY it is needed and how long it will last.
1 Corinthians 13 speaks of PROPHESY to reveal the Word. Ephesians 4 speaks of PROPHETS to edify.
1 Corinthians 13 speaks of HOW LONG miraculous gifts will last. Ephesians 4 says gifts of service were given to EDIFY the church!
1 Corinthians 13 tells us miraculous gifts would last until “completion” of God’s Word while Ephesians 4 tells us that gifts of service were given to “complete” the body in the fullness of Chirst.

So can you explain WHY Ephesians 4 “must” explain what you claim it must.
Answer: Ephesians 4 does not explain anything about prophesy vanishing away or when “perfection” will come because this is NOT the context of Ephesians 4! If you think so, please “harmonize” that for me.

And WHY did you ignore what I asked about APOSTLES.??? Last time I remarked…

What about APOSTLES? Do we still have those? I say since we DON”T have apostles today, we don’t have SGs today! But your basic premise is what defeats this logic from the start, that being that the “gifts” of edification in Ephesians 4 are not the same type of “gifts” that Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 12 – which are miraculous in nature.

Where is your response????????????

While we are here, please look up the definition of a “PROPHET” – literally a “mouth for God”.
One can certainly be a “mouth for God” today without the miraculous manifestations that you are seeking desperately to retain. Prophesying does not have to be miraculous!

You said - Please explain how then you can harmonize your "exegesis" with Ephesians 4. Thus far you have avoided this very crucial step in bible interpretation, that it must harmonize with the rest of scripture!

If you missed it before, you should have no question now. So when can I expect YOURS???
You need to “connect” what Paul says in 1 Cor. 13 with Eph. 4 – with more than assumptions, ignoring the context of both, and using 2 different types of “GIFTS” interchangeably.

Now to “nutshell” what needs to be addressed by you…

The PURPOSE of spiritual gifts was to reveal the word and confirm it! Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, cf. Acts 2:22, 4:33, 15:8. SGs did not edify and they did not spread the word. People spread the Word and the Word edifies people.

You have not addressed Paul’s contrast in 1 Corinthians 13 that LOVE would endure and SGs would not. And that NOW love abides – not SGs.

You have failed to show any CONTEXT for “that which” being anything other than God’s word.

You have not addressed the Greek word “teleios” and what you think it means.

You have not addressed the TWO analogies that Paul offers to collaborate what he mentioned before them – and what these could possibly mean. Can YOU use them to support your supposition that SGs are to continue.

Loveabove – deal with the “meat” of the passage and what Paul is offering. Deal with the CONTEXT of the passage to support your thoughts or give it up!

 

[Loveaboveall]

Apollos,

As I reread my earlier post, I must apologize. I was not speaking with a loving heart and I now realize that and I must ask for your forgiveness.

There is folly in debate, and thus I choose to not continue in debate. I have no problems discussing, but a debate occurs when one or both parties are speaking through a predetermined heart that does not show forth the love that Jesus demonstrated to us.

I will, in the future, strive to allow the Holy Spirit to work through me with a listening heart that shows forth the praises of God.

I can say that I disagree with you on this point, but it will do neither of us any good to continue this debate as stated above, maybe we can pick this up at another time when we both have learned better to discuss without debating.

 

[KorahRose]

This is a very interesting thread. I've always thought "the perfect" to be the complete Word of God. But I have also heard that it could be the state of perfect unity we will be in with God and eachother when this life is over.

 

[Apollos1]

loveabove -

Thank you for your repsonse. I did not detect any lack of love on your part and I have rendered no judgment toward you. I appreciate the love and concern that you show in trying to share what you think is the truth on this topic. This is certainly my motivation in discussing spiritual matters.

Last post you said - I can say that I disagree with you on this point, but it will do neither of us any good to continue this debate as stated above, maybe we can pick this up at another time when we both have learned better to discuss without debating.

There is nothing wrong with debating and I think it does ALOT of good. Paul certainly engaged in it when he "powerfully confuted the Jews".

And at this point it was very important for YOU to now tell me and all reading the thread here SPECIFICALLY what there is in the verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 13 that makes you think what you do.

Which verse makes you think that this passage is speaking of the end of time, or the return of Christ, and what Paul's analogies mean to you, etc., etc., etc. My "list" is still in my last post to you above.

Your apology is accepted. Your SPECIFIC remarks in reference to 1 Corinthians 13 is needed much, much more.

I don't want to leave this thread thinking that you have "punked" out. So help me to not make that judgment.

 

[Loveaboveall]

Hmmm... never heard the term "punked" before, maybe you could explain that?

Paul "powerfully confuted the jews" by presenting Jesus from the OT that could not be refuted. He did not debate them.

Did Jesus ever debate? Think about it for a second. Debate is not necessary to spread the gospel of Christ. I am learning that you can never change how a person thinks! That is the job of the Holy Spirit... all we can do is present the truth in love.