Yes...another Good and Evil thread

[quatona]

So from your perspective you are froeced to admit that there truly is no good and there truly is no evil.

What does "truly" mean in this context? "Decreed by a god", by any chance? Something else?

There is indeed moral equivalence between Mother Teresa and Osama bin Laden

If "good and evil" (in the sense postulate them) are not there, there is also no morality (as you have it in mind). Consequently things can not be measured in terms of the morality (as you have it in mind), and saying that two things are morally equivalent would be nonsense. If no morality exists, things cannot be morally equivalent or different.

That said, there are plenty of different ideas as to what "morality" means, besides yours. Mass killing counts as worse in my book than mass feeding, and even if an alleged "absolute authority" would see that the other way round, I think it wouldn´t change my opinion.
What, for example, if your "absolute authority" decided that Bin Laden is better than Mother Theresa? Would that be the sort of advantage that you see in having such an "absolute authority" and the "absolute good and evil" over having a subjective but reasonable idea of good and evil?

Btw., I do not know any of the two persons closely enough to have an opinion (in fact, I just know them as being picked as symbols for good and evil based on selected actions of theirs). And what happened to the Christian "don´t judge the person", anyways?

 

[MachZer0]

What does "truly" mean in this context? "Decreed by a god", by any chance? Something else?

I'll let you check the dictionary definition yourself.

If "good and evil" (in the sense postulate them) are not there, there is also no morality (as you have it in mind). Consequently things can not be measured in terms of the morality (as you have it in mind), and saying that two things are morally equivalent would be nonsense. If no morality exists, things cannot be morally equivalent or different.

They would be morally equivalent because they would both be amoral

That said, there are plenty of different ideas as to what "morality" means, besides yours. Mass killing counts as worse in my book than mass feeding, and even if an alleged "absolute authority" would see that the other way round, I think it wouldn´t change my opinion.

The trouble is that you have no basis to call one good and the other evil. You can only say what you like and dislike. Others may disagree.

What, for example, if your "absolute authority" decided that Bin Laden is better than Mother Theresa? Would that be the sort of advantage that you see in having such an "absolute authority" and the "absolute good and evil" over having a subjective but reasonable idea of good and evil?

If the absolute authority called bin Laden good, then bin Laden would be good.

 

[quatona]

I'll let you check the dictionary definition yourself.

There are plenty of different meanings to this term in the dictionary. I was afraid that if I would pick the one to my liking you would tell me afterwards that this is not the meaning you had in mind. So I asked beforehand.

They would be morally equivalent because they would both be amoral

There would be no moral, so the term "amoral" would be meaningless. There is no equivalent (i.e. "equal value") in the absence of value.

The trouble is that you have no basis to call one good and the other evil.

How´s that troubling?

You can only say what you like and dislike. Others may disagree.

The assumption that there is an absolutely powerful being out there doesn´t change anything about that.

If the absolute authority called bin Laden good, then bin Laden would be good.

And you find that desirable exactly why?

 

[JoyJuice]

So from your perspective you are froeced to admit that there truly is no good and there truly is no evil. There is indeed moral equivalence between Mother Teresa and Osama bin Laden

There are actions we deem "good" and some "evil" and no, I have explained on more than one occasion how they are derived. In so much within our understanding of what good and evil is, Mother Teresa is placed in one charaterization, Bin Laden the opposite based on societal understanding of good and evil.

 

[MachZer0]

There are actions we deem "good" and some "evil" and no, I have explained on more than one occasion how they are derived. In so much within our understanding of what good and evil is, Mother Teresa is placed in one charaterization, Bin Laden the opposite based on societal understanding of good and evil.

From your perspective, when you "deem" them good and evil, thay are merely social constructs which can change and are therefore neither good nor evil but rather things which you like or dislike. Therefore, you calling Bin Laden evil carries no more weight than him calling you evil. You are both right equally

 

[JoyJuice]

From your perspective, when you "deem" them good and evil, thay are merely social constructs which can change and are therefore neither good nor evil but rather things which you like or dislike. Therefore, you calling Bin Laden evil carries no more weight than him calling you evil. You are both right equally

Not what a given individual likes or dislikes, that's why such things as Divine Kingships are now defunct in light of representive Governments. It's rather what society deems beneficial to society. And yes, social constructs do change as we evole, as well the should. They have always changed for the "good" of society. Like women's sufferage, slavery, minority rights etc,.

Anyone can call anyone else evil, that is what you are really describing in your Bin Laden example, and you are right. Yet because Bin Laden is not basing his opinion of me being evil on our societal reasoned understanding of good and evil even on the universal level, his opinion really has no meaning; it has no authority being outside what we deem evil. However, given our societal norms and our developed laws based on those norms, Bin Laden of course has been expelled from many countries and is now a mass murdering fugative facing many indictments.

 

[quatona]

From your perspective, when you "deem" them good and evil, thay are merely social constructs which can change and are therefore neither good nor evil but rather things which you like or dislike. Therefore, you calling Bin Laden evil carries no more weight than him calling you evil. You are both right equally

And if Bin Laden believes that there is an "absolute authority" whose decree is that Bin Laden is good and Mother Theresa is evil - does this make him right and me wrong, or does it even give any more weight to his opinion?

 

[MachZer0]

And if Bin Laden believes that there is an "absolute authority" whose decree is that Bin Laden is good and Mother Theresa is evil - does this make him right and me wrong, or does it even give any more weight to his opinion?

In the absence of an absolute authority there is no basis to say he is right or wrong. What matters is whether he is right or wrong in his assessment of the absolute authority

 

[elman]

From your perspective, when you "deem" them good and evil, thay are merely social constructs which can change and are therefore neither good nor evil but rather things which you like or dislike. Therefore, you calling Bin Laden evil carries no more weight than him calling you evil. You are both right equally

Helping people in need is more than just something I like. Murdering innocent people is more than just something I do not like. It is not simply a matter of perspective.

 

[MachZer0]

Helping people in need is more than just something I like. Murdering innocent people is more than just something I do not like. It is not simply a matter of perspective.

However, you can't expect all to agree on those as either being good or evil, just based on your perspective.

 

[elman]

However, you can't expect all to agree on those as either being good or evil, just based on your perspective.

I don't expect all murderers to agree murder is wrong as some of them have come up with a spin to justify in their own minds their evil. Some of them would admit it is evil. The fact that some of them attempt to justify themselves does not reduce evil to being only a matter of perspective.

 

[MachZer0]

I don't expect all murderers to agree murder is wrong as some of them have come up with a spin to justify in their own minds their evil. Some of them would admit it is evil. The fact that some of them attempt to justify themselves does not reduce evil to being only a matter of perspective.

And yet that remains merely your perspective

 

[quatona]

In the absence of an absolute authority there is no basis to say he is right or wrong.

Well, I was hypothetically talking about the scenario in which there would be such an absolute authority. The scenario which you seem to regard as preferable.

 

[quatona]

However, you can't expect all to agree on those as either being good or evil, just based on your perspective.

Just like you can´t expect all to agree that the god of your concept exists and has given out the "absolute morality" of your idea, just based on your perspective.

 

[MachZer0]

Well, I was hypothetically talking about the scenario in which there would be such an absolute authority. The scenario which you seem to regard as preferable.

Your hypothetical addressed what Bin Laden "believes" to be an absolute authority. If the absolute authority exists and declares Bin Laden's actions to be good, then they are good.

 

[MachZer0]

Just like you can´t expect all to agree that the god of your concept exists and has given out the "absolute morality" of your idea, just based on your perspective.

I'm sorry, but that is not the topic at hand

 

[quatona]

I'm sorry,

Ah, come on, no need to apologize.

but that is not the topic at hand

Not? I fail to see how it´s any further from the topic than your post I responded to.

 

[MachZer0]

Not? I fail to see how it´s any further from the topic than your post I responded to.

Sorry you can't see that

 

[quatona]

Sorry you can't see that

Well, you could simply explain it to me.

 

[elman]

And yet that remains merely your perspective

It is my perspective, but it is not merely my perspective.