More PROOF that EX-GAY Minstries DON't WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrPirate]

How is there any burden of proof on ex-gay ministries, or anything else you don't happen to like?

They are the one claiming to change people’s sexual orientation.

Just as it is the responsibility of any organization producing a product to substantiate the claims of they make of that product

 

[MrPirate]

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation? Anything but your unsupported assumptions and presuppositions? Someone keeps going on and on about "peer reviewed" studies, where is your evidence?

The same has been asked of the various ex-gay ministries…support their claims…yet they do not.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Here is a Guru of the exgay movement and some of his methods. tennis anyone? bizarre to say the least

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJXWFZz0Qjo&mode=related&search=

 

[MrPirate]

Would you be glad if someone left the gay lifestyle? As a christian you should be.

So you admit that all these ex-gay ministries have no evidence to substantiate the claims they have made.

Finally

Why would I or any Christian be happy that someone is willing to bare false witness about their “change” of sexual orientation?

In the Lord's BOOK OF LIFE.

translation they don’t exist

The same peer reviewed journal that Jesus appears in.

Here's a quote from it:

1 Corinthians 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

translation everyone knows ex-gay ministries do not tell the truth.

I guess Jesus being a messiah from 2000 years ago makes Him totally obsolete using your rationale.

since when Is Jesus a trait of society?

How about conversion through the Holy Spirit? What kind of data do you use for that? I guess social science, being the humanist philosophy, has no place for God.

lacking any evidence form ex-gay ministries and their kin it can only be assumed that number is…zero

I also cited the apostel Paul from the bible -- you know -- before anybody ever heard of therapy.

changes nothing about MacIntosh and his unsupported claims

And those that challenge the study -- they have GAY POLITICAL INTERESTS at stake.

so honesty is something gays are interested in….pity honesty isn’t something ex gay ministries is interested in

But it made it to a peer reviewed journal. Here is the abstract:

Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation
Author: Spitzer R.L.1
Source:Archives of Sexual Behavior, Volume 32, Number 5, October 2003 , pp. 403-417(15)
Publisher: Springer

Abstract:
Position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States state that there is no scientific evidence that a homosexual sexual orientation can be changed by psychotherapy, often referred to as “reparative therapy.” This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexual can, with some form of reparative therapy, become predominantly heterosexual. The participants were 200 self-selected individuals (143 males, 57 females) who reported at least some minimal change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation that lasted at least 5 years. They were interviewed by telephone, using a structured interview that assessed same sex attraction, fantasy, yearning, and overt homosexual behavior. On all measures, the year prior to the therapy was compared to the year before the interview. The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. Reports of complete change were uncommon. Female participants reported significantly more change than did male participants. Either some gay men and lesbians, following reparative therapy, actually change their predominantly homosexual orientation to a predominantly heterosexual orientation or some gay men and women construct elaborate self-deceptive narratives (or even lie) in which they claim to have changed their sexual orientation, or both. For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.

and if you had actually bothered to read the journal…you would note the editorial inclusion that peer review was failed and that the study is being published only because of the interest it generated.

How about the apostle Paul, is he a liar too?

reparative therapists, ex-gay ministries and their kin can’t back up their lies with evidence

So are screaming gay activists, so whats' the point? They were around for the APA coup d'etat in 1974.

the point being that hate groups like KK and the Nazis and ex-gay ministries stick around.

hmmm think about it -- God is ALL ABOUT CHANGE.

God is also about honestly… pity honesty isn’t something ex gay ministries is interested in


Schroeder and Shidlo are both gay. There is nothing like an "objective perspective." Oh, and by the way, they had to change the name of their ex-gay bashing study when they found people benefit from reparative therapy.



and you claim the name of christ. These are people that sincerely serve the Lord -- but to you they are liars. Sadly, that says something about your own spiritual condition.[/quote]

 

[MrPirate]

Here is a link to a video by Dr Spitzer stating that focus on the family totally misinterpeted his results and that change is quite rare.

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2007/02/video-dr-spitzer-speaks-out-about-distortion-of-his-work/

Wow… Focus on the Family being dishonest in their representation of research …who would have thought

 

[united4Peace]

It's not my loss; that is your loss.

You might say I'm leaning toward predestination:



God knows how to make, and He knows how to destroy.

Who am I to stand in the way when God destroys homosexuals?

God doesnt destroy Her children/creation...

God weeps when we are hurt...God doesnt take joy in our pain...

 

[MrPirate]

ZERO! NONE! NADA! Evidence

That is correct. There is no evidence that ex-gay ministries reparative therapists and their kin can alter sexual orientation…none

And these organizations have also constantly failed to produce any evidence to show what they do is safe…none

Baseless accusation! No evidence, now or ever

Conversion therapy is based upon the notion that homosexuality is a mental illness and/or a destructive element in society. Theorists such as Nicolosi and Socarides maintain that homosexuals suffer from an arrest of normal development. Nicolosi, J. Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ, 1991; Socarides, C. Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far. Phoenix, AZ: Adam Margrave, 1995.

And since homosexuality is not a mental illness…claiming such by reparative therapists is a lie.

Who cares what you think!

obviously you do...otherwise you would not be engaging in a personal attack.

Anybody can make unfounded, unsupported, unsubstantiated accusations. Now be a mensch and support them.

We are all still waiting for all these ex-gay organizations to support their claims

 

[Brieuse]

Wow… Focus on the Family being dishonest in their representation of research …who would have thought

We already knew they did that. Paul Cameron is well known to do that.

I specifically recall many authors confronting groups such as Exodus for using their research "in the wrong way"

 

[MercyBurst]

and you claim the name of christ. These are people that sincerely serve the Lord -- but to you they are liars. Sadly, that says something about your own spiritual condition.

Mr. Pirate ehhhh -- stealing is in the name. So people serve God through homosexual behavior do they? This is hypocrisy.

Jesus warns us:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
prophets Deut 13:3, Jer 23:16, Rom 16:17, Eph 5:6, Col 2:8, 2nd Pet 2:1, 1st John 4:1
sheep's Micah 3:5, 2 Tim 3:5
wolves Acts 20:29
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
fruits Luke 6:43
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
tree Jer 11:19
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
good Matt 12:33
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
hewn down Matt 3:10, Luke 3:9, Luke 13:7, Luke 13:9, John 15:6
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them,

***and the fruit you are selling is rotten.(MB foot note)

Homosexuality is an evil fruit, yet you call it good. That really tells me all I need to know about you. I honestly say that it looks like blasphemy.

 

[davedjy]

Mr. Pirate ehhhh -- stealing is in the name. So people serve God through homosexual behavior do they? This is hypocrisy.

Jesus warns us:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
prophets Deut 13:3, Jer 23:16, Rom 16:17, Eph 5:6, Col 2:8, 2nd Pet 2:1, 1st John 4:1
sheep's Micah 3:5, 2 Tim 3:5
wolves Acts 20:29
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
fruits Luke 6:43
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
tree Jer 11:19
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
good Matt 12:33
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
hewn down Matt 3:10, Luke 3:9, Luke 13:7, Luke 13:9, John 15:6
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them,

***and the fruit you are selling is rotten.(MB foot note)

Homosexuality is an evil fruit, yet you call it good. That really tells me all I need to know about you. I honestly say that it looks like blasphemy.

Homosexuality is an evil fruit?

You have yet to prove that, except by hiding behind your false translations.


FACT: most members in this forum are gay themselves!

 

[MercyBurst]

Homosexuality is an evil fruit?

Homosexual behavior is carnality.

You have yet to prove that, except by hiding behind your false translations.

Marriage between a male and a female is the way God planned sex to work. They have children that way, and the survival of humanity depends on it.

God commanded humanity to "be fruitful and multiply."

Gay sex speaks for itself -- it bears no fruit.

"By their fruit ye shall know them" our Savior says.

A barren tree is a bad tree. Jesus cursed the barren fig tree because it bore no fruit.

 

[MrPirate]

Mr. Pirate ehhhh -- stealing is in the name. So people serve God through homosexual behavior do they? This is hypocrisy.

Jesus warns us:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
prophets Deut 13:3, Jer 23:16, Rom 16:17, Eph 5:6, Col 2:8, 2nd Pet 2:1, 1st John 4:1
sheep's Micah 3:5, 2 Tim 3:5
wolves Acts 20:29
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
fruits Luke 6:43
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
tree Jer 11:19
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
good Matt 12:33
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
hewn down Matt 3:10, Luke 3:9, Luke 13:7, Luke 13:9, John 15:6
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them,

***and the fruit you are selling is rotten.(MB foot note)

Homosexuality is an evil fruit, yet you call it good. That really tells me all I need to know about you. I honestly say that it looks like blasphemy.

I did not say what you are attributing to me…please remove my name from that

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I did not say what you are attributing to me…please remove my name from that[/SIZE]

Actually he quoted you exactly, and what you are claiming he attributed to you is his reply to one of your posts. Click on the > in a box next to his name, that will link you to the specific post.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

I'm sitting here with my buddy now that was forced through this via his pentacostal upbringing and his overly religious..YES OVERLY RELIGIOUS parents. He's ready to jump through the screen to tell you how this ex-gay thing is a joke.. Been there, and was a huge waste of his time. While they said the things he wanted to hear (b/c he was brought up to believe it's wrong and not acceptable)...it never changed him because he finally got it...HE CAN NOT CHANGE!!! Now, if a pentacostal of minister parents who has spent the majority of his youth and growing up in the church is gay...how did that happen? How did the devil make his way into his soul when his entire life was surrounded by God? then, if anyone wanted to change..it was him...and he can't. So, studies and everything else aside..it is what it is...you either aruge to death to defend your stand..and just move on. I can't post on these threads anymore simply b/c it seems like everyone is out to change the other..and it isn't going to happen. Just like you can not make a gay person heterosexual..you can make a fundamentalist accepting of people not like them. Accept it..and move on. It's not worth any of the time most of you put into this.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I'm sitting here with my buddy now that was forced through this via his pentacostal upbringing and his overly religious..YES OVERLY RELIGIOUS parents. He's ready to jump through the screen to tell you how this ex-gay thing is a joke.. Been there, and was a huge waste of his time. While they said the things he wanted to hear (b/c he was brought up to believe it's wrong and not acceptable)...it never changed him because he finally got it...HE CAN NOT CHANGE!!! Now, if a pentacostal of minister parents who has spent the majority of his youth and growing up in the church is gay...how did that happen? How did the devil make his way into his soul when his entire life was surrounded by God? then, if anyone wanted to change..it was him...and he can't. So, studies and everything else aside..it is what it is...you either aruge to death to defend your stand..and just move on. I can't post on these threads anymore simply b/c it seems like everyone is out to change the other..and it isn't going to happen. Just like you can not make a gay person heterosexual..you can make a fundamentalist accepting of people not like them. Accept it..and move on. It's not worth any of the time most of you put into this.[/SIZE]

There is an old adage which states, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

Drug addicts, alcoholics, porn addicts, gamblers, name any addictive, compulsive behavior, none of them can be helped unless, until they want to be. It sounds to me like your friend only went to because he was "forced to," your words. And in case you have not realized it this is only one person, and may or may not be representative of any other person or situation.

How did it happen that the son of a Pentecostal minister is gay? Maybe he needs to talk to a qualified counsellor and find out why? People who grow up being physcially or sexually abused generally tend to be abusers as adults. People who grow up with substance abusing parents often tend to be substance abusers as adults.

Being a pastor does not preclude a person from being some kind of sinner. Some years ago I was involved in a sexual abuse awareness and prevention training program which sometimes involved having convicted sex offenders speak in public forums, who, what, when, where, why. On one occasion one of the offenders was a pastor, married with children, in a major denomination, with advanced degrees. He was serving 300 years for sexually abusing a number of young boys, 11-13, in his congregation.

I once heard Dr. James Dobson talk about one of his homosexual patients. The man had been involved in a number of failed relationships. His "partners" were always tall, slender, blond musicians. During his treatment it was learned that the man's father had abandoned him when he was quite young. Want to take a guess what the father looked like? Tall, slender, blond musician. Dobson did say this may not be representative of any other person/situation.

 

[MrPirate]

Actually he quoted you exactly, and what you are claiming he attributed to you is his reply to one of your posts. Click on the > in a box next to his name, that will link you to the specific post.

At no time did I post this:



“and you claim the name of christ. These are people that sincerely serve the Lord -- but to you they are liars. Sadly, that says something about your own spiritual condition.”

 

[MrPirate]

There is an old adage which states, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

Horses are smart enough not to drink poisoned water

Drug addicts, alcoholics, porn addicts, gamblers, name any addictive, compulsive behavior, none of them can be helped unless, until they want to be. It sounds to me like your friend only went to because he was "forced to," your words. And in case you have not realized it this is only one person, and may or may not be representative of any other person or situation.

Sexual orientation isn’t an addictive or compulsive behavior.

How did it happen that the son of a Pentecostal minister is gay?

Cause God made him that way

Maybe he needs to talk to a qualified counsellor and find out why?

A qualified counselor would say "there is no why, that’s just how you were born."

People who grow up being physcially or sexually abused generally tend to be abusers as adults. People who grow up with substance abusing parents often tend to be substance abusers as adults.

None of which has anything to do with the topic.

Being a pastor does not preclude a person from being some kind of sinner. Some years ago I was involved in a sexual abuse awareness and prevention training program which sometimes involved having convicted sex offenders speak in public forums, who, what, when, where, why. On one occasion one of the offenders was a pastor, married with children, in a major denomination, with advanced degrees. He was serving 300 years for sexually abusing a number of young boys, 11-13, in his congregation.

Again…nothing to do with the topic.

I once heard Dr. James Dobson talk about one of his homosexual patients. The man had been involved in a number of failed relationships. His "partners" were always tall, slender, blond musicians. During his treatment it was learned that the man's father had abandoned him when he was quite young. Want to take a guess what the father looked like? Tall, slender, blond musician. Dobson did say this may not be representative of any other person/situation.

The abounding father is one of the great unsupported myths of ex-gay ministries. (well lets face it...none of their claims are supported) if the man in question didn’t have a father who left Dobson would have created some other way to make the man’s father a bad person.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Horses are smart enough not to drink poisoned water [Doesn't address anything!]

Sexual orientation isn’t an addictive or compulsive behavior. [You have any peer reviewed studies to back this up?]

Cause God made him that way [You asked the question, I merely repeated it!]

A qualified counselor would say "there is no why, that’s just how you were born." [Got any peer reviewed studies to back this up?]

None of which has anything to do with the topic. [This is a "Nonny nonny boo boo" answer!]

Again…nothing to do with the topic. [Absolutely does! As long as he could remember he was like that. He was born that way, he couldn't help himself!]

The abounding father is one of the great unsupported myths of ex-gay ministries. [Peer reviewed studies?] (well lets face it...none of their claims are supported) [Nonny nonny boo boo!] if the man in question didn’t have a father who left Dobson would have created some other way to make the man’s father a bad person.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Same old, lame old homosexual harping, gay griping, don't know diddly about the individuals or the incident but bad mouth it at long range.

What exactly did you mean?

abounding.
/euhbownd"/, v.i., abounded, abounding.
1. to occur or exist in great quantities or numbers: a stream in which trout abound.
2. to be rich or well supplied (usu. fol. by in): The region abounds in coal.
3. to be filled; teem (usu. fol. by with): The ship abounds with rats.
[1325-75; ME < L abundare to overflow = ab- AB - + undare to move in waves; see UNDULATE]​

 

[united4Peace]

http://www.calgaryhealthregion.ca/clin/adultpsy/flessati/homophobia.htm

Where one can find some other great sites...

One from the University of Alberta on Sexual Orientation, human sexuality etc...
(Neat Quiz!)
http://www.ualberta.ca/dept/health/public_html/healthinfo/Decisions/orientation.htm

and...

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

Where one finds

Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

and much more...

 

[DMagoh]

I'm sitting here with my buddy now that was forced through this via his pentacostal upbringing and his overly religious..YES OVERLY RELIGIOUS parents...

I think the word "forced" is the operative word. You cant "force" somebody to change, they have to be willing. Even a hypnotist will tell you he cant hypnotize you if you arent willing.