More PROOF that EX-GAY Minstries DON't WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eastcoast_bsc]

I take that to mean you can only cut/paste bits and pieces which, out-of-context, seem to support your argument but you are unable to back up what you say. Your second post does NOT answer my questions. It consists of vague generalities and unsupported assumptions.


OTOH I almost never say anything I cannot back up!

Many of the therapists . . .(vague generality)​

almost none of those who felt . . ..(vague generality)​

Most patients go through. . ..(vague generality)​

most patients continued . . ..(vague generality)​

This is almost certainly . . . (assumption)​

outsiders find much less. . ..(vague generality)​

(almost all of this group . . ..(vague generality)​

Obviously there is . . .(assumption)​

I'll take that to mean you are too lazy to read the study.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Trying to tell me that's not bias is like NewGuy trying to tell me calling all liberal whiney isn't an insult.
[/size][/color][/font]

So calling nazis haters isn't an insult right?

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

So calling nazis haters isn't an insult right?

mmmmmm

 

[ReformedChapin]

I'll take that to mean you are too lazy to read the study.

Nah, that just means he is educated enough to know one must rely on good sources not just dogmatic statements.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I'll take that to mean you are too lazy to read the study.[/SIZE]

Why should I try to locate the source and read it when I have already proven that it is vague, meaningless from the little you did quote. It is not incumbent on any other person to do your homework when you are incapable of supporting your own argument, and the sources you do cite are full of errors, as shown.

This type of citation would not even make it in a HS paper.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

Why should I try to locate the source and read it when I have already proven that it is vague, meaningless from the little you did quote. It is not incumbent on any other person to do your homework when you are incapable of supporting your own argument, and the sources you do cite are full of errors, as shown.

This type of citation would not even make it in a HS paper.

And you think you're not bias? You picked a handful of sentences from it and said "these aren't true therefore the entire article is wrong". You're picking and choosing Der Alter. This is exactly what I was talking about.

 

[ReformedChapin]

And you think you're not bias? You picked a handful of sentences from it and said "these aren't true therefore the entire article is wrong". You're picking and choosing Der Alter. This is exactly what I was talking about.

I guess liberalism is true because of your faith right?

 

[MercyBurst]

Fundies read and WEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/pdf.php?id=31

It's not my loss; that is your loss.

You might say I'm leaning toward predestination:

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Hath not Matt 20:15
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God knows how to make, and He knows how to destroy.

Who am I to stand in the way when God destroys homosexuals?

 

[ReformedChapin]

It's not my loss; that is your loss.

You might say I'm leaning toward predestination:



God knows how to make, and He knows how to destroy.

Who am I to stand in the way when God destroys homosexuals?

Someone sounds like a calvinist ...

I didn't want to bring predestination up considering the "tolerance" movement in this forum. But yeah...

Romans
8:28 And we know that all things work together 32 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son 33 would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 34 8:30 for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[MercyBurst]

Someone sounds like a calvinist ...

I didn't want to bring predestination up considering the "tolerance" movement in this forum. But yeah...

Romans
8:28 And we know that all things work together 32 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son 33 would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 34 8:30 for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

Well New Guy, There is one case where I have to agree with predestination unto damnation, and Jesus told us about it:

Matthew 12:31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

I think some on this forum have crossed that line, and there really is no hope for them.

Could it be that this "sinless homosexual doctrine" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? It is awfully close. When good becomes evil and evil becomes good, I believe the line has been crossed.

 

[MrPirate]

The APA is as biased liberally as you get. Nice try.

Can you please provide the actual evidence instead of dogmatic statements?

 

[MrPirate]

In 1997, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) issued a resolution stating, in part, “the . . . potential for harm of therapies that seek to reduce or eliminate same-gender sexual orientation.” This was followed, in 1999, by a similar joint “document” issued by the AAP, ACA, AASA, AFT, APsyA, ASHA, IAH, NASP, NASW., and NEA.

Whereas the ethics, efficacy, benefits, and potential for harm of therapies that seek to reduce or eliminate same-gender sexual orientation are under extensive debate in the professional literature and the popular media (Davison, 1991; Haldeman, 1994; Wall Street Journal, 1997);​

In 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), American Counseling Association (ACA), American Association of School Administrators (AASA), American Federation of Teachers (AFT), American Psychological Association (APsyA), American School Health Association (ASHA), Interfaith Alliance Foundation (IAH), National Association of School Psychologists (NASP), National Association of Social Workers (NASW) and National Education Association (NEA) jointly issued a document titled: "Just the facts about sexual orientation."[sup]3[/sup] They:​

. . .​

Condemned reparative therapy as potentially harmful and of little or no effectiveness​

This seems impressive, but the opinions of educators, administrators, theologians, etc., who are not mental health professionals, such as the American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, and National Education Association are no more authoritative regarding the subject of faith based homosexual ministries, than the opinions of the National Rifle Association or National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing.

American Counseling Association (ACA)
American Psychological Association (APsyA)
National Association of School Psychologists (NASP)
National Association of Social Workers (NASW)

You seem to have left these associations out of your attack.

It has been thirty four years since homosexuality was removed from the APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), and it has been ten years since the APA resolution, referenced above. In all that time, how much, if any, actual, vs. alleged “potential” harm, by faith based treatment programs, has ever been studied or documented, by any qualified mental health professional or organization? I submit there have been zero studies, and zero documentation.

In the thirty five years since the founding of the first ex-gay ministry, Love in Action, how much, if any, actual evidence about the success safety of these faith based treatment programs has ever been studied or documented, by any qualified mental health professional or organization? There have been zero studies and zero documentation.

If all those hundreds, perhaps thousands, of APA “mental health professionals,” including, arguendo, the signatories of the 1999 joint paper, are truly concerned about the “potential harm,” as alleged, why, in the past 10 – 30 years, have NONE of them ever conducted a professional study to document and evaluate any such alleged harm?

If all those thousands, of ex-gay “professionals,” are truly convinced that what they do is not only effective but not harmful in any way in the past 30 plus years, have NONE of them ever conducted a professional study to document and evaluate their methods, results and standards?

I have seen several studies by “professionals,” with PhDs behind their names, posted here, all touted as “proof” that homosexuality is genetic, inborn, inherited, unchangeable, etc., etc.,

Can you cite some of the studies where actual professions make the claim proof homosexuality is genetic?

It would seem that “professionals,” are willing to spend millions trying to “prove” homosexuality, undoubtedly including their own, is inherited, genetic, unchangeable, etc. but have not, will not spend one dollar studying any alleged “potential harm” to homosexuals seeking treatment, “paying” scant lip service to it in obscure non-binding “resolutions.” Their actions, rather lack thereof, clearly show how little the APA, and all the other “professional” organizations, really care about the alleged “potential harm.”

It would seem that ex-gay “professionals,” are willing to spend millions trying to spread propaganda that homosexuality is changeable, but have not, will not spend one dollar providing any evidence to pack up their claims.

 

[MrPirate]

Why should I try to locate the source and read it when I have already proven that it is vague, meaningless from the little you did quote. It is not incumbent on any other person to do your homework when you are incapable of supporting your own argument, and the sources you do cite are full of errors, as shown.

This type of citation would not even make it in a HS paper.

It woudl seem that eastcoast_bsc got it exaclty right.

 

[Brieuse]

Well New Guy, There is one case where I have to agree with predestination unto damnation, and Jesus told us about it:



I think some on this forum have crossed that line, and there really is no hope for them.

Could it be that this "sinless homosexual doctrine" is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? It is awfully close. When good becomes evil and evil becomes good, I believe the line has been crossed.

When you guys can prove that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes, I'll repent from it. Der Alter's links prove it isn't. You'll know the Holy Spirit is in a person from the fruits of his labour. From the hate and insults I've seen on this forum, you guys have a lot of explaining to do.

Bible bash me all you wish, but I'd recommend you guys concentrate on the log in your eye first.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Can you please provide the actual evidence instead of dogmatic statements?

Read the rest of this forum...thanks.

 

[MrPirate]

Read the rest of this forum...thanks.

Ahh….so you can’t provide anything but dogmatic statements

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]American Counseling Association (ACA)
American Psychological Association (APsyA)
National Association of School Psychologists (NASP)
National Association of Social Workers (NASW)

You seem to have left these associations out of your attack.[/SIZE]

I only mentioned the groups that were not professional mental health organizations, their opinions about the efficacy of any mental health program is meaningless.

[SIZE=-1]In the thirty five years since the founding of the first ex-gay ministry, Love in Action, how much, if any, actual evidence about the success safety of these faith based treatment programs has ever been studied or documented, by any qualified mental health professional or organization? There have been zero studies and zero documentation.[/SIZE]

You hit it right on the head, zero studies and zero documentation of any kind, just meaningless resolutions about "potential harm."

[SIZE=-1]If all those thousands, of ex-gay “professionals,” are truly convinced that what they do is not only effective but not harmful in any way in the past 30 plus years, have NONE of them ever conducted a professional study to document and evaluate their methods, results and standards?[/SIZE]

How do you know they haven't? Have you ever directly contacted any for information, or do you just believe everything you see scribbled on a public restroom wall?

[SIZE=-1]Can you cite some of the studies where actual professions make the claim proof homosexuality is genetic?[/SIZE]

Look around dood there are a couple of threads here which make that claim. See this one e.g.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33831344&postcount=1

[SIZE=-1]It would seem that ex-gay “professionals,” are willing to spend millions trying to spread propaganda that homosexuality is changeable, but have not, will not spend one dollar providing any evidence to pack up their claims.[/SIZE]

Where do you see any ex-gay professional spending thousands, let alone millions to advertise anything? Compare whatever you think you know with how much PhDs have spent trying to prove homosexuality is inborn, unchangeable, etc?

Back to my point which you haven't even begun to address. Hardly a day goes by that someone here doesn't tout the fact that "All mental health organizations denounce reparative therapy ministries because of their potential harm."

NONE, ZERO of those so-called professional agencies really give a rats behind about any "potential harm." Their meaningless resolutions are just free publicity for their own profession.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]When you guys can prove that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes, I'll repent from it. Der Alter's links prove it isn't.[/SIZE]

No they don't! This statement is about the equivalent of "Did too! Did not! Nuh uh! Nuh huh!"

Can you show anything in what I post that proves what you claim? So far all you have been capable of is quoting 1-2 sentences out of context, without even identifying who you are quoting..

 

[Brieuse]

No they don't! This statement is about the equivalent of "Did too! Did not! Nuh uh! Nuh huh!"

Can you show anything in what I post that proves what you claim? So far all you have been capable of is quoting 1-2 sentences out of context, without even identifying who you are quoting..

Did too

How is quoting the entire relative paragraphs with the related authors quoting out of context?

Not once, ever, have you directly answered a question of mine to you.

 

[MrPirate]

I only mentioned the groups that were not professional mental health organizations, their opinions about the efficacy of any mental health program is meaningless.

hardly

You hit it right on the head, zero studies and zero documentation of any kind, just meaningless resolutions about "potential harm."

And what of all those ex-gay ministries.

In the thirty five years since the founding of the first ex-gay ministry, Love in Action, how much, if any, actual evidence about the success safety of these faith based treatment programs has ever been studied or documented, by them? There have been zero studies and zero documentation.

What a suprise

How do you know they haven't? Have you ever directly contacted any for information, or do you just believe everything you see scribbled on a public restroom wall?

Well I don’t believe the claims that you would provide a “good time”

Well lets see…published peer reviewed research showing that sexual oriention can be changed from homosexual to heterosexual?…nope…none.

Hmmm

Published peer reviewed articles showing that ex-gay ministries have actually altered individuals sexual oriention from homosexual to heterosexual?…nope…not a one.

Published peer reviewed studies showing that sexual oriention can be changed from homosexual to heterosexual through conversion or reparative therapies? …nope…nothing.

Published peer reviewed articles providing evidence that ex-gay ministries and reparative and conversion therapies and the like are not harmful? Zero

Thirty five years…and nothing to show either effectiveness or safety.

Look around dood there are a couple of threads here which make that claim. See this one e.g.

So…no you cannot provide support for your claim that there are “several studies by “professionals,” with PhDs behind their names, posted here, all touted as “proof” that homosexuality is genetic, inborn, inherited, unchangeable, etc., etc.,”

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33831344&postcount=1

A copy of a NY Times op ed…

Strangely enough the author doesn’t have PhD behind his name…

And lo and behold…her is a response from you in that thread: “You have selectively quoted a few passages, out-of-context, desperately trying to prop up your false assumptions and presuppositions.” http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33839339&postcount=15
And you go on at length about how no one in this article makes any actual claims…but wait a minute…you are now claiming that these “professionals“ somehow did manage to make claims about sexual orientation being genetic.

So what changed between your post then and today?.

Where do you see any ex-gay professional spending thousands, let alone millions to advertise anything?

What? Love won out doesn’t spend huge amounts of money advertising anymore? that is news

Compare whatever you think you know with how much PhDs have spent trying to prove homosexuality is inborn, unchangeable, etc?

So your comparing scientific research with con-artists…

Back to my point which you haven't even begun to address. Hardly a day goes by that someone here doesn't tout the fact that "All mental health organizations denounce reparative therapy ministries because of their potential harm."

The bigger point is that those claiming to be able to somehow alter a person’s sexual oriention have, for thirty five years, failed to provide evidence of not just effectiveness but also of safety.

NONE, ZERO of those so-called professional agencies really give a rats behind about any "potential harm." Their meaningless resolutions are just free publicity for their own profession.

That ‘s correct…ex-gay ministries have not ever produced evidence that they are safe and effective.