For the Last Time, Roman Catholics Aren't the Pharisees!

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

For the love of all that is holy people, drop the bigotry and villianizations!

Our Lord's critique of the Pharisees was based on a view of the law that lacked any attention to the intentions behind our good deeds, and their ethnocentric form of Judaism that strictly seperated Jews and Gentiles- something highly inappropriate and indeed damning in the new era.

That is not what Catholics do! Haven't you ever read St. Thomas Aquinas? Do you even know what he is? According to Catholic doctrine, derived from the Scriptures, good works that lack right intentions are worthless.

Or do you just wish to villianize Christian traditions that practice formal liturgies in their worship and sacramental forms of piety because you don't understand them and think they're just 'going through the motions'?

I wonder how many evangelicals are just 'going through the motions' when they 'give the Lord a big round of applause' or clap their hands to upbeat worship music.

Seriously, I find that whole line of argument highly offense.

 

[PaladinValer]

The crazy thing also is that the Pharisees kept the ritual/holiness laws but didn't follow the moral and social laws.

And yet so many people here equate the VCs with them, yet they also say that their theology is false and they wrongly think that they are Pelagians...which is the exact opposite of the Pharisees!

Spreading falsities yet keeping the faith is like the Pharisees. People need to mind the logs in their own eyes before screaming bloody murder about the teeny-tiny specks in comparison in others' eyes.

 

[ContentInHim]

Actually, the Pharisees erected the fence around the law so that they would never go into captivity again and as a result marched right past their Messiah. Blindly and regally and legally (according to Pharisaic additions to the law) right past him. And counted themselves righteous to do so.

I see apples and oranges here.

 

[E.C.]

Actually, the Pharisees erected the fence around the law so that they would never go into captivity again and as a result marched right past their Messiah. Blindly and regally and legally (according to Pharisaic additions to the law) right past him. And counted themselves righteous to do so.

I see apples and oranges here.

Unfortunately, few people can see outside the surface of things and thus equate the "evil deeds" they see with that which they were taught to hate.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually, the Pharisees erected the fence around the law so that they would never go into captivity again and as a result marched right past their Messiah. Blindly and regally and legally (according to Pharisaic additions to the law) right past him. And counted themselves righteous to do so.

I see apples and oranges here.

I actually had a view of the Pharisees being a type of the "egyptians" of the OT which held those that wanted to come to the Messiah in "bondage" to their rule and traditions.
I do know the Sadducees disappeared after the Destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman army [but not much is mentioned about them in the Gospels it seems].


Matthew 12:14 And the Pharisees/farisaioi<5330> having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy Him,

http://www.christianforums.com/t4750523-pharisees.html

5330. Pharisaios far-is-ah'-yos of Hebreworigin (compare 6567); a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.

5328. Pharao far-ah-o' of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios ee-os' perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3

Ezekiel 29:3 "Speak, and say, 'Thus says 'Adonay Y@hovih : "Behold, I [am] against you, O Pharaoh/Par`oh king of Egypt/04714 Mitsrayim, O great Dragon/tanniyn who lies in the midst of his rivers, Who has said, 'My River [is] my own; I have made [it] for myself.'

Results 1 - 10 of about 58,500 for sadducees no longeraroundafterfirstcenturybible.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msacrifice.html

Under Greek and later Roman rule, there were two political factions among the Jews. The Sadducees stood for temple, priest and sacrifice--the pre-Prophetic concept of Judaism. They were the party of the aristocrats and priests. They were religious conservatives but cultural liberals, with a liberal, enlightened political viewpoint. They accepted Hellenistic cultural influence. The Sadducees disappeared. Their religion had been tied to the Temple in Jerusalem and to the sacrifice system, which no longer existed. Their dogma had become inflexible and they could not adapt to the changes that Rome imposed.

The Pharisees, on the other hand, were religious liberals but cultural conservatives. They stood for synagogue, rabbi, and prayer--the post-Prophetic concept of Judaism. They were the party of the common people, rejecting Hellenism.

 

[Thekla]

... there are some terms that are just used too easily ...

I bet mathematicians and historians are still reeling over what happened to the word "radical"

just my way of replying in the affirmative

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Under Greek and later Roman rule, there were two political factions among the Jews. The Sadducees stood for temple, priest and sacrifice--the pre-Prophetic concept of Judaism. They were the party of the aristocrats and priests. They were religious conservatives but cultural liberals, with a liberal, enlightened political viewpoint. They accepted Hellenistic cultural influence. The Sadducees disappeared. Their religion had been tied to the Temple in Jerusalem and to the sacrifice system, which no longer existed. Their dogma had become inflexible and they could not adapt to the changes that Rome imposed.

Yup.

I bet mathematicians and historians are still reeling over what happened to the word "radical"

As a historian, I'll vouch for that.

 

[lokt]

Yahushua's basic beef is religion which is used as a substitute for relationship. He singled out the Pharisees, (jews), the Ekklesia of Pergamos, (Constantinians/Universalists), and the Ekklesia of Laodicea, (western protestants of today) for their religious dogma which he calls damning and vomit.
If you don't believe that, just read Revelations and the letters to the 7 Ekklesia and the synoptic gospels where the Pharisees receive a stinging rebuke and are called the "Synagogue of satan".
Yahuweh detests religion, He detests obeisant worship.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thanks Gratia.

Yahushua's basic beef is religion which is used as a substitute for relationship.

OY!
This is not only NOT in scriptures, but very bigotted. Not to mention, the Lord was the ONE Who established religion.
Both Judaism and the Church.

Where do these things come from?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks Gratia.



OY!
This is not only NOT in scriptures, but very bigotted. Not to mention, the Lord was the ONE Who established religion.
Both Judaism and the Church.

Where do these things come from?

OC Judaism vs the NC Ekklesia[called out ones]

Hebrew 12:20 for they were not bearing that which is commanded, `And if a beast may touch the Mountain, it shall be stoned, or with an arrow shot through,' 21 and, (so terrible was the sight,) Moses said, `I am fearful exceedingly, and trembling.' 22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem,

Matthew 21:21 And Jesus answering said to them, `Verily I say to you, If ye may have faith, and may not doubt, not only this of the fig-tree shall ye do, but even if to this Mount ye may say, Be lifted up and be cast into the Sea, it shall come to pass;

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a Great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the Sea became blood,

 

[IamAdopted]

He detests obeisant worship.

Can you explain this to me? This is quite interesting to me.. I agree with the religion part..

 

[sunlover1]

For the love of all that is holy people, drop the bigotry and villianizations!

Hmm, I have not seen anyone calling anyone
pharisee, but I have seen
both camps dissing both camps.
SAD that I have to say there are
two camps.

I wonder how many evangelicals are just 'going through the motions' when they 'give the Lord a big round of applause' or clap their hands to upbeat worship music.

Seriously, I find that whole line of argument highly offense.

I would think there are going to be Pharisees
in all walks of life GCC.
They come in all sizes, shapes, colors
and denominations.

 

[simonthezealot]

I wonder how many evangelicals are just 'going through the motions' when they 'give the Lord a big round of applause' or clap their hands to upbeat worship music.
.

I find this both offensive and judgemental, and a very unchristian gesture. Who are you to judge whether someone is worshipping the Lord in spirit and truth??? In whatever manner they be worshipping...

Talk about bigotry and villianizations...Sheesh

 

[IamAdopted]

Originally Posted by GratiaCorpusChristi
I wonder how many evangelicals are just 'going through the motions' when they 'give the Lord a big round of applause' or clap their hands to upbeat worship music.

I don't wonder because it is not between me them and the Lord it is between them and the Lord. They are not trying to lead any one astray but what they do are they?

 

[Benedicta00]

For the love of all that is holy people, drop the bigotry and villianizations!

Our Lord's critique of the Pharisees was based on a view of the law that lacked any attention to the intentions behind our good deeds, and their ethnocentric form of Judaism that strictly seperated Jews and Gentiles- something highly inappropriate and indeed damning in the new era.

That is not what Catholics do! Haven't you ever read St. Thomas Aquinas? Do you even know what he is? According to Catholic doctrine, derived from the Scriptures, good works that lack right intentions are worthless.

Or do you just wish to villianize Christian traditions that practice formal liturgies in their worship and sacramental forms of piety because you don't understand them and think they're just 'going through the motions'?

I wonder how many evangelicals are just 'going through the motions' when they 'give the Lord a big round of applause' or clap their hands to upbeat worship music.

Seriously, I find that whole line of argument highly offense.

Are there folks here who really think Catholics are Pharisees?

How foolish are they.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Are there folks here who really think Catholics are Pharisees?

How foolish are they.

LOL!


I think it was meant that Catholics are like the Pharisees when Jesus condemns them as vipers.

 

[Benedicta00]

So what if a Catholic goes through the motions.

If their intent is to open themselves up to have an encounter with Christ present there in the sacraments, then who cares how they look on the outside?

If we are discussing those who go to Mass with out ever lifting their hearts up to God and having that encounter with Jesus, then that's another story altogether.

but if we are discussing piety that is not emotional, that's not wearing ones encounter with Christ on their sleeve, then it's crazy to pass judgement on them.

Non Catholics and sadly, many Catholics really don't know what we go to Mass to do. We go to praise God, adore Him in His presence and worship Him and give Him much thanks for His many gifts, mainly Christ.

Non Catholics and many Catholics just have no clue that we do not worship through our emotions and they don't know that Mass is a huge prayer offered up to God. Mass is contemplative.

We focus and contemplate Christ and all the mysteries of our faith in the silence of our hearts and we don't wear that on our sleeve.

It's hard to describe but we aren't singing and moving around because we are in prayer, we are in His presence, we are one with God, we are in deep prayer. All that jumping around, hootin and hollerin is distracting.

So on the outside, it looks like we are going through the motions, but so what? It's what is going on between the person and their Lord that others never see.

For Catholics who claim Mass is boring and they do not get anything from it... Man, it's becuase you don't know what you are doing there. You were never taught that you enter into God's presence. Contemplate Him, put all of your thoughts on Him and focus on Him present there with you.

I'm sorry, but I'd rather spend an hour with Jesus in the silence of my heart than spend a hour carrying on.

Once a person encounters Christ at Mass, they'll never call it boring again.

 

[simonthezealot]

Are there folks here who really think Catholics are Pharisees?

How foolish are they.

It is most likely a comment on the actions the Lord condemns the pharisee's having somewhat of a parallel with ritualistic manners of worship, but who know since gratia didn't really sight any "such as" instances, I could be way off the mark, maybe he just created this thread to spit venom at evangelical Christians.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hmm, I have not seen anyone calling anyone
pharisee, but I have seen
both camps dissing both camps.
SAD that I have to say there are
two camps.


I would think there are going to be Pharisees
in all walks of life GCC.
They come in all sizes, shapes, colors
and denominations.

Right on sis

Without partiality, FIRST PURE

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is ~from above~ is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, ~without~ partiality, and ~without~ hypocrisy.


Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of ~the leaven~ of the Pharisees, which is ~hypocrisy~.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Benedicta00]

It is most likely a comment on the actions the Lord condemns the pharisee's having somewhat of a parallel with ritualistic manners of worship, but who know since gratia didn't really sight any "such as" instances, I could be way off the mark, maybe he just created this thread to spit venom at evangelical Christians.

Jesus never condemned rituals, he condemned hypocrites.