Did Mary, Mother of Jesus, have other children?

[Hentenza]

Hi All,

This issue has been touched upon in several threads and I think should be discussed further.
The bible tells us that Mary had other children. Some of the verses that confirm this are:

Mat 1:25
5but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Mat 13:55-56
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

Mark 3:31-32
31Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him.
32A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."

John 2:12
12After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

Acts 1:14
14These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.


Some will argue that the greek word "adelphos" for brother or "adelphe" for sister can also be used to refer to "cousins". The problem with this argument is that the context of the passages will also change and not make sense. For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence.
A second problem is that the greek word for cousin, anepsios, could have been used but it was not. This further adds validity to the correct interpretation as being literal brothers and sisters.

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17.

To get the whole context, Psalm 69:4-9 reads:
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

The prophesy depicted in Psalm 69:8 comes true in John 7:5 "5For not even His brothers were believing in Him."

The above makes a strong argument that Mary, Mother of Jesus, had in fact other children.


Lets keep our discussions friendly. Even with our disagreements, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Christ

 

[Kristos]

I don't know what else there is to discuss on this. It seems like beating a dead horse. The Orthodox and others teach that, no, she did not.

 

[Hentenza]

I don't know what else there is to discuss on this. It seems like beating a dead horse. The Orthodox and others teach that, no, she did not.

Are you saying that those teachings are not biblical?

 

[IamAdopted]

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Even Repentant told of James looking so much like Christ. Must have been family resemblance. Or maybe it was someone he was quoting. We see that the book of James is Jesus brother and we see that the book of Jude is also.

 

[IamAdopted]

Tee Hee I mean the authors of James and Jude. LOL

 

[sunlover1]

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Even Repentant told of James looking so much like Christ.

Yeah, I read that too, how much alike
they looked. I thought it was in the
Bible but it may have been ECF.

Another thing that may
help the study is this
passage which I don't
think works for cousins.
(I changed brothers
and sister and brother
to say 'cousins')

Matthew 12:49-50
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said,
"Here are my mother and my cousins.
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven
is my cousin and cousin and mother."

 

[Hentenza]

Yeah, I read that too, how much alike
they looked. I thought it was in the
Bible but it may have been ECF.

Another thing that may
help the study is this
passage which I don't
think works for cousins.
(I changed brothers
and sister and brother
to say 'cousins')

Matthew 12:49-50
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said,
"Here are my mother and my cousins.
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven
is my cousin and cousin and mother."

I tried that too using several passages and they just did not make sense.

 

[IamAdopted]

I tried that too using several passages and they just did not make sense.

I also tried that with what they use as the word being Jesus and not Gods word.

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

They are not of the world
Even as I am not of it.
Sanctify them by the Me for Me is Me.
As you sent me into the world
I have sent them into the world.
Doesn't make much sense at all to me.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Hi All,

This issue has been touched upon in several threads and I think should be discussed further.
The bible tells us that Mary had other children. Some of the verses that confirm this are:

Mat 1:25
5but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Mat 13:55-56
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

Mark 3:31-32
31Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him.
32A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."

John 2:12
12After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

Acts 1:14
14These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.


Some will argue that the greek word "adelphos" for brother or "adelphe" for sister can also be used to refer to "cousins". The problem with this argument is that the context of the passages will also change and not make sense. For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence.
A second problem is that the greek word for cousin, anepsios, could have been used but it was not. This further adds validity to the correct interpretation as being literal brothers and sisters.

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17.

To get the whole context, Psalm 69:4-9 reads:
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

The prophesy depicted in Psalm 69:8 comes true in John 7:5 "5For not even His brothers were believing in Him."

The above makes a strong argument that Mary, Mother of Jesus, had in fact other children.


Lets keep our discussions friendly. Even with our disagreements, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Christ

I don't know what else there is to discuss on this. It seems like beating a dead horse. The Orthodox and others teach that, no, she did not.

Agree.

 

[Hentenza]

Agree.

Hi Pam,

I love that imocon, btw. I respect everyones opinion in this discussion forum but the lack of biblical evedence put out forth in this issue is disturbing to me. IOW, Oral traditions or other non biblical evidence can not be used independent of the biblical word. I am yet to read a pov that addresses the discrepancies that I have brought forward.

Your brother in Christ

 

[Kristos]

Your biblical evidence doesn't support your point either. When these people are listed, Mary and then Mary's childern - wait no, that's not what it says. By you arguement that if they were really cousins, then they would have been listed as cousins, so too if they had been children of Mary, they would have been list as such. Joseph had other children and these children would have been brothers and sisters of Jesus. This terminology is carried throughout - half brothers are called brothers when from the same father. The fact that the bible indicates that Jesus had brothers only reinforces what we know to be true that Joseph had other children. No where does it say that Mary had other children - because she didn't.

Psalms 69: Brother could refer to the same brothers in the gospels, but most like is a broader sense of the word brethern. Mother's children, again this is used in the braodest sense of the word - more like a builder of the family name - David's family, the nation of Isreal. And, yes, this too came to pass, but doesn't have anything to do with Mary having other sons.

 

[repentant]

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Even Repentant told of James looking so much like Christ. Must have been family resemblance. Or maybe it was someone he was quoting. We see that the book of James is Jesus brother and we see that the book of Jude is also.

From the letter to John from Ignatius..but what Ignatius said is that James looked so much like Jesus, it was like they were from the same womb..

 

[Hentenza]

Your biblical evidence doesn't support your point either. When these people are listed, Mary and then Mary's childern - wait no, that's not what it says.

So, who's children are they?

By you arguement that if they were really cousins, then they would have been listed as cousins, so too if they had been children of Mary, they would have been list as such. Joseph had other children and these children would have been brothers and sisters of Jesus. This terminology is carried throughout - half brothers are called brothers when from the same father. The fact that the bible indicates that Jesus had brothers only reinforces what we know to be true that Joseph had other children. No where does it say that Mary had other children - because she didn't.

The cousin argument is not my argument it is the RCC's argument actually. Can you please point to the bible verses relating to Joseph's other children?

Psalms 69: Brother could refer to the same brothers in the gospels, but most like is a broader sense of the word brethern. Mother's children, again this is used in the braodest sense of the word - more like a builder of the family name - David's family, the nation of Isreal. And, yes, this too came to pass, but doesn't have anything to do with Mary having other sons.

No, Pslam 69 is a messianic psalm containing messianic prophesy. It refers to Jesus and Mary's sons as stated on verse 8. You are grabing at straws there.

 

[Hentenza]

From the letter to John from Ignatius..but what Ignatius said is that James looked so much like Jesus, it was like they were from the same womb..

Because they were.

 

[repentant]

Hi All,

This issue has been touched upon in several threads and I think should be discussed further.
The bible tells us that Mary had other children. Some of the verses that confirm this are:

Not one verse in the entire Scripture says that Mary had other children..

Mat 1:25
5but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Misunderstanding of the Greek eos ou. It does not imply that something change after, but was used to affirm that His birth was of a virgin. If this verse "clearly" means Mary had other children..then this verse would imply Jesus will not be with us forever..

I will be with you always, even until the end of ages..

Mat 13:55-56
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

Again, saying Jesus had brother's does not say Mary had other children. It only affirms the Traidtional belief that Joseph was a widower with other children before Jesus was born..

Mark 3:31-32
31Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him.
32A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."

Same as above..

John 2:12
12After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

Acts 1:14
14These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Same..

Some will argue that the greek word "adelphos" for brother or "adelphe" for sister can also be used to refer to "cousins". The problem with this argument is that the context of the passages will also change and not make sense. For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence. A second problem is that the greek word for cousin, anepsios, could have been used but it was not. This further adds validity to the correct interpretation as being literal brothers and sisters.

Adelphoi can be used as close relatives. In the verse above Mat. 13:55, it is reffering to his half brothers, sons of Joseph. The same term adelphoi, is used reffering to Lot and Abraham, allthough they were uncle and nephew..also anepsois is more of a modern term..the word does not appear anywhere in the Greek, from the Septuagint, to the NT..

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
To get the whole context, Psalm 69:4-9 reads:
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

The prophesy depicted in Psalm 69:8 comes true in John 7:5 "5For not even His brothers were believing in Him."

The above makes a strong argument that Mary, Mother of Jesus, had in fact other children.


Lets keep our discussions friendly. Even with our disagreements, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Christ

Psalm 69 is not Messianic. "Stranger to brother's" and "His brother's not believeing in Him" are not the same..also verse 5 says talks about guilt and folly, Jesus did not have guilt nor did he folly..

 

[repentant]

Because they were.

"This tastes like chocolate" means it is chocolate?

Here is the exact quote..

the venerable James, who is surnamed Just, whom they relate to be very like Christ Jesus in appearance, in life, and in method of conduct, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb.

As if he were...not that he was..

 

[Hentenza]

Not one verse in the entire Scripture says that Mary had other children..

But many verses say that she did.

Misunderstanding of the Greek eos ou. It does not imply that something change after, but was used to affirm that His birth was of a virgin. If this verse "clearly" means Mary had other children..then this verse would imply Jesus will not be with us forever..

I will be with you always, even until the end of ages..

This verse merely adds to the plethora of other verses that clearly depicts that Mary had other children.

Again, saying Jesus had brother's does not say Mary had other children. It only affirms the Traidtional belief that Joseph was a widower with other children before Jesus was born..

The is absolutely nothing in scripture that shows Joseph being a widower and having other children. I guess you still believe in Canta Claus.

Adelphoi can be used as close relatives. In the verse above Mat. 13:55, it is reffering to his half brothers, sons of Joseph. The same term adelphoi, is used reffering to Lot and Abraham, allthough they were uncle and nephew..also anepsois is more of a modern term..the word does not appear anywhere in the Greek, from the Septuagint, to the NT..

Anepsios appears once in Col 4:10 KJV.

Psalm 69 is not Messianic. "Stranger to brother's" and "His brother's not believeing in Him" are not the saem..also verse 5 says talks about guilt, Jesus did not have guilt..

Then why did Jesus quote from it. Also there is other prophesy form Psalm 69. Ex. 69:21 which is fulfilled in John 19:28 and Mat 27:34.
Psalm 69 is messianic. Verse 5&6 guilt and wrongs are the psalmists not Christs.

 

[repentant]

But many verses say that she did.

Um..where? I said not one verse in the entire SCripture says Mary had other children. You say many verses do, so where are they? Where does it say "son/daughter of Mary, outside of Jesus? Where does it say Mary's children, besides Jesus?

This verse merely adds to the plethora of other verses that clearly depicts that Mary had other children.

No. If you use "until" in this sense here, then you would have to use it in the same sense with "I am with you, even until the end of ages." So does this say Jesus will not be with us forever?

The is absolutely nothing in scripture that shows Joseph being a widower and having other children. I guess you still believe in Canta Claus.

And Scripture doesn't tell us everything...

Anepsios appears once in Col 4:10 KJV.

Yes you are right..it appears once. But this doesn't contradict the fact that Jospeph had other children, which would be Jesus' half brother's or sister's..

Then why did Jesus quote from it. Also there is other prophesy form Psalm 69. Ex. 69:21 which is fulfilled in John 19:28 and Mat 27:34.
Psalm 69 is messianic. Verse 5&6 guilt and wrongs are the psalmists not Christs.

Oh so it switches back and forth from Messianic Prophecy, to what David feels? Makes sense..

If so, then the part about mother's children is about the Psalmist as well..

 

[Hentenza]

Um..where? I said not one verse in the entire SCripture says Mary had other children. You say many verses do, so where are they? Where does it say "son/daughter of Mary, outside of Jesus? Where does it say Mary's children, besides Jesus?




No. If you use "until" in this sense here, then you would have to use it in the same sense with "I am with you, even until the end of ages." So does this say Jesus will not be with us forever?




And Scripture doesn't tell us everything...




Yes you are right..it appears once. But this doesn't contradict the fact that Jospeph had other children, which would be Jesus' half brother's or sister's..




Oh so it switches back and forth from Messianic Prophecy, to what David feels? Makes sense..

If so, then the part about mother's children is about the Psalmist as well..

You are grasping and you know it. Most OT prophetic writings are not "all" prophetic and they do not have to compare verbatum with their NT counterpart.
There are no verses depicting Joseph as a widower and father to children other than with Mary in the bible, so this tale is just that, a tale or just myth. The brothers and sisters of Jesus depicted in the bible are exactly that, Mary's other children.

 

[repentant]

You are grasping and you know it. Most OT prophetic writings are not "all" prophetic and they do not have to compare verbatum with their NT counterpart.
There are no verses depicting Joseph as a widower and father to children other than with Mary in the bible, so this tale is just that, a tale or just myth. The brothers and sisters of Jesus depicted in the bible are exactly that, Mary's other children.

I am grasping? We have a belief stemming back since the beginning, and you are trying to use verses that make no claim to Mary having other children as "proof" she did?

As far as your first paragraph, like I said, "mother's children" is not Prophetic, it is about the Psalmist..

The Bible never says anything about Jospeh having children with Mary or anyone else. No where does it say he and Mary had children together. You are grasping here..the brother's depicted are Josephs children, not Mary's...not once does Scripture say she had other children..not once..you are grasping my friend..what purpose would it serve the early Church to make up something like this?