God Told Moses How Creation Happened

[pastorkevin73]

It is evident throughout the Torah that Moses had a close and dynamic relationship with God because he frequently spoke with God. We see in scripture that God first spoke to Moses through a burning bush (Ex 3). In Ex 19 we see Moses talking directly to God. In Ex 33 Moses sees God's glory (but not His face). In Leviticus 1 we see God again speaks directly to Moses at the tent of meeting. Throughout the torah we see that Moses talks with God serveral times at the tent of meeting. Since Moses was this close to God it may have been that God directly told Moses how He created the universe and all life; thus Genesis would be true.

 

[Deamiter]

It is evident throughout the Torah that Moses had a close and dynamic relationship with God because he frequently spoke with God. We see in scripture that God first spoke to Moses through a burning bush (Ex 3). In Ex 19 we see Moses talking directly to God. In Ex 33 Moses sees God's glory (but not His face). In Leviticus 1 we see God again speaks directly to Moses at the tent of meeting. Throughout the torah we see that Moses talks with God serveral times at the tent of meeting. Since Moses was this close to God it may have been that God directly told Moses how He created the universe and all life; thus Genesis would be true.

Could be... could be... Then again, it could be that since Moses was this close to God, God inspired him to write a beautiful creation poem that perfectly refuted other gods of the times in the order their creation stories claimed they existed and simultaneously established a basis for a day of rest along with underlining our inherent sinful nature; thus Genesis would be true.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Could be... could be... Then again, it could be that since Moses was this close to God, God inspired him to write a beautiful creation poem that perfectly refuted other gods of the times in the order their creation stories claimed they existed and simultaneously established a basis for a day of rest along with underlining our inherent sinful nature; thus Genesis would be true.

Even if Moses wrote Genesis 1 as a poem, doesn't mean that it would be any less true. Forms for writing doesn't really hold any bearing on either something is true or false.

 

[Assyrian]

Apparently God told Moses he rescued the Israelites out of Egypt 'with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm'. Now unless you actually believe God has arms and legs, Moses speaking to God directly has nothing to do with God speaking literally or not.

 

[Willtor]

Even if Moses wrote Genesis 1 as a poem, doesn't mean that it would be any less true. Forms for writing doesn't really hold any bearing on either something is true or false.

Right, I don't think anybody is arguing that Genesis 1 is false. Merely, the question relates to what purpose it serves. Whether God told Moses verbatim, or whether Moses was inspired on this point, was the author concerned that the Israelites might not have the facts on the origins of the world, or was he concerned that the Israelites might not understand the relationship between God and the world?

I think it's the difference between these two things that distinguishes YECs and TEs. I don't think it's a question of whether one thinks it's true and the other thinks it's false.

 

[busterdog]

Could be... could be... Then again, it could be that since Moses was this close to God, God inspired him to write a beautiful creation poem that perfectly refuted other gods of the times in the order their creation stories claimed they existed and simultaneously established a basis for a day of rest along with underlining our inherent
sinful nature; thus Genesis would be true.

This inferential reasoning is not much of a "proof".

But, I can guarantee for myself and I double dog dare you to admit, if you can be face to face with God, I know I would be looking for something more than a poem about how it all started!

 

[busterdog]

It is evident throughout the Torah that Moses had a close and dynamic relationship with God because he frequently spoke with God. We see in scripture that God first spoke to Moses through a burning bush (Ex 3). In Ex 19 we see Moses talking directly to God. In Ex 33 Moses sees God's glory (but not His face). In Leviticus 1 we see God again speaks directly to Moses at the tent of meeting. Throughout the torah we see that Moses talks with God serveral times at the tent of meeting. Since Moses was this close to God it may have been that God directly told Moses how He created the universe and all life; thus Genesis would be true.

I really was hoping to get at this question, so thanks for starting the thread.

I have not seen a completely satisfactory explanation for how we know that Moses wrote Genesis in the first place.

I must have missed something in the following article:

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2003/492/

Thouse Missler is one of my favorites, I don't see how this is supposed to be so clear from these texts.

Why Is It So Critical?
There are four basic questions that confront all of us: Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I die?
And your eternal destiny will be determined by your "world view" in addressing these issues. And there are really only two world-views: either everything - including you - is the result of some kind of cosmic accident, or this is all the result of a deliberate design by a Designer.
This issue could not be more fundamental to everything. It comes as a shock to many to discover that every major theme and doctrine in the Bible has its roots in this "Book of Beginnings": sovereign election; salvation, justification by faith, believer's security, separation, disciplinary chastisement, the Divine Incarnation, the "rapture" of the church, death and resurrection, the priesthoods (both Aaronic and Melchizedekian), the Antichrist, and even the Palestinian Covenant that is being challenged by the continuing tensions throughout the world today all have their roots in this critical foundational book of the Bible. And each of these issues also has its consummation in the Book of (the) Revelation. (Like every good textbook, the answers are always in the back!)
Who Really Wrote the Torah?
There are those who have suggested the books of Moses were actually compilations by a number of redactors over the years - the common "Documentary Hypothesis" being one of the most prevalent theories. Fortunately, these previously popular notions have been thoroughly shredded by competent scholarship. But allow me to save you many hours of boring library research. I know who wrote the Books of Moses: Moses did. How do I know? Jesus Christ Himself said so! Many times.1
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? - John 5:45-47
Jesus quotes from each of the books of the Torah and attributes them each to Moses. The New Testament includes 165 direct quotes (and over 200 allusions) to the Book of Genesis, and over 100 of these are from the first 11 chapters. These include the Creator and the creation, 2 (and allusions3), creation of man and woman,4 the fall of man,5 the Flood of Noah,6 etc. So if you believe in Jesus Christ, you have no problem as to who wrote the Book of Genesis. (And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you have much bigger problems than the authorship of Genesis!)

That being said, it seems pretty reasonable that if Genesis was from a face to face between Moses and God, that this only makes the YEC proposition stronger.

 

[busterdog]

Apparently God told Moses he rescued the Israelites out of Egypt 'with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm'. Now unless you actually believe God has arms and legs, Moses speaking to God directly has nothing to do with God speaking literally or not.

Theophany.

We understand that we were made in God's image. That would suggest arms and legs, no?

 

[Jadis40]

Theophany.

We understand that we were made in God's image. That would suggest arms and legs, no?

Not really, considering that God is Spirit.

The only time that God did have arms and legs was through the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity.

 

[random_guy]

Theophany.

We understand that we were made in God's image. That would suggest arms and legs, no?

Would it also mean God has reproductive organs? Which set, male or female, or both? Does God have a belly button? Even if He has no mother? Does God have an appendix, blind spots, etc....?

When I hear created in His image, I imagine a spiritual image, not a physical image. If it was physical, it would be just as easily to argue that apes are also created in God's image.

 

[laptoppop]

Right, I don't think anybody is arguing that Genesis 1 is false. Merely, the question relates to what purpose it serves. Whether God told Moses verbatim, or whether Moses was inspired on this point, was the author concerned that the Israelites might not have the facts on the origins of the world, or was he concerned that the Israelites might not understand the relationship between God and the world?

Why does it have to be an either/or proposition? What's wrong with God revealing spiritual truths in true accurate history? What's wrong with recognizing that God from the beginning intended the Scriptures to talk to people throughout the ages?

 

[crawfish]

Why does it have to be an either/or proposition? What's wrong with God revealing spiritual truths in true accurate history? What's wrong with recognizing that God from the beginning intended the Scriptures to talk to people throughout the ages?

Why would he need to be historically and scientifically accurate to speak to people throughout the ages? I think that was His intention;
tell a story that communicates His purpose, without dealing with things the eventual audience may or may not understand.

 

[Deamiter]

Even if Moses wrote Genesis 1 as a poem, doesn't mean that it would be any less true. Forms for writing doesn't really hold any bearing on either something is true or false.

Isn't that what I just said?

 

[Deamiter]

This inferential reasoning is not much of a "proof".

But, I can guarantee for myself and I double dog dare you to admit, if you can be face to face with God, I know I would be looking for something more than a poem about how it all started!

Now would I claim it as a proof. The OP is entirely based on similar reasoning -- 'since God talked to Moses and some of the Torah is attributed to God, Genesis 1 must be a factual account and therefore must be true.' (paraphrase)

I'm not sure what your dare has to do with anything -- if I were face-to-face with God, I would, by definition, be looking at something more than a poem. To take your dare a bit less literally, nothing in the texts suggest that Genesis 1&2 were dictated or otherwise given directly by God so making grand claims about what one would see in the presence of God don't really have much to do with showing how a Biblical author would choose to convey God's sovreinty over other ANE gods.

 

[Deamiter]

Why does it have to be an either/or proposition? What's wrong with God revealing spiritual truths in true accurate history? What's wrong with recognizing that God from the beginning intended the Scriptures to talk to people throughout the ages?

Oh it certainly doesn't HAVE to be either/or. The Genesis story would be just as true if it were factually correct! I think the real question is why so many creationists insist that it MUST be factually correct in order to be true. What's wrong with recognizing that God from the beginning knew that imagery and metaphor would be much more a universal method of communication than the strictly factual reporting that has only recently been a primary form of communication and has certainly never been the only form of communication in any culture!

 

[pastorkevin73]

Isn't that what I just said?

Sorry, I missed that somehow.

 

[pastorkevin73]

I have been thinking more about the op and asked myself How does this relate to my life directly and my relationship with God? I asked myself if I have that same kind of relationship Moses had with God. I shamefully answer, no. I am striving to have that kind of relationship, but admit that at times I allow things (which aren't worth while) to get in the way, thus I am not where Moses was with God. (btw, Moses hadn't arrived, as it seems that he continued to pursue hard after God) So I need to spend all the more time studying God's word, time in prayer and using spiritual disciplines which help open me to God and His guidance.
So I present to all of us, no matter how good and bad your current relationship with God is, to pursue all the more to go deeper in relationship with God.

God, please forgive us when we don't spend the time with you that we should. Lord remind us to spend more and more time with You. Time throughout each day. Thank you Lord that you love us and don't give up on us and want a relationship with us. Amen!

 

[Willtor]

Why does it have to be an either/or proposition? What's wrong with God revealing spiritual truths in true accurate history? What's wrong with recognizing that God from the beginning intended the Scriptures to talk to people throughout the ages?

You're right. I'm not advocating either/or. However, I do divide it into two distinct things because one group (YECs) argues that one of those things is its purpose, and the other group (TEs) argues that that thing is not its purpose. The issue is that we ultimately agree that it is true, whatever it means. But we disagree as to what it does mean.

 

[Assyrian]

Theophany.

A theophany, that must have been amazing for the Israelites to watch. So why wasn't it recorded in Exodus? A pillar of cloud is not a theophany.

We understand that we were made in God's image. That would suggest arms and legs, no?

What the others said.

to Deamiter: But, I can guarantee for myself and I double dog dare you to admit, if you can be face to face with God, I know I would be looking for something more than a poem about how it all started!

Good luck on that. People spoke to Jesus, God the Son, face to face. They asked hm their pet questions, but usually they got either (1) the answer to a completely different question (2) another question in reply or (3) a parable.

God really seem to like speaking to us in parables and metaphors, even when he is talking face to face. Look at the very first statement in the commandments
Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
A single house that could hold the entire nation? No sorry it's another metaphor.

 

[busterdog]

Would it also mean God has reproductive organs? Which set, male or female, or both? Does God have a belly button? Even if He has no mother? Does God have an appendix, blind spots, etc....?

When I hear created in His image, I imagine a spiritual image, not a physical image. If it was physical, it would be just as easily to argue that apes are also created in God's image.

Presumptively, he has all of them? Why not?

If Jesus was God, eternally existent, what does that say?

Sometime during the first few centuries, the church somehow felt the need to debate whether Jesus would defecate. Seems like a waste of time to want to go there.

To deny that God has arms and legs is a nonsense argument. Are we going to split hairs about how God the father differs from Jesus in form and appearance? Doesn't that become teh question? Isn't that a complete waste of time?