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Teaching Evolution in the Church?

c'mon sense

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Let's just say that someone knew all 109 prophecies by heart. Even then, who did he apply them to? It would have HAD to have been a fictional character, as no candidate alive would fit all of those prophecies.
:D Bingo!

Bear in mind, Christianity is the result of combined greek thought, persian theology, jewish messianism and egyptian occultism. It is very likely that, had Ptolemy not commissioned a translation of Jewish scriptures, we would never have had a Jewish Jesus.

There are indirect clues to the fact that early christianity (jewish messianism as it was around the time of the Roman empire) was hijacked by Paul (or the Pauline party). He is the one self-styled apostle of the gentiles, and in taking fringe jewish messianism mainstream by mixing it with the rest of the religious syncretism already under way, the whole thing became eventually highly political.
 
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Nathan Poe

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The Jews would have accused them of that and easily exposed them --- yet they didn't.

So --- there were no Jews who denied that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?

In fact, behind closed doors, they substantiated it.

[bible]John 11:49-53[/bible]
The very same people who swear up and down that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies then swear up and down in the very same document that the Jews were on their side the whole time.

But if you want an example, I can happily give a small one -- did you know the Virgin Birth was not a fulfilled prophecy?

Matthew invented the Virgin Birth so that Jesus' birth would coincide with his interpretation of Isaiah 7:14 -- which allegedly prophecized a "virgin shall conceive," thus fulfilling one of your precious prophecies.

But -- Isaiah 7:14 in its original Hebrew (remember the Hebrews?) doesn't say "virgin," ("bethulah") it says "young woman" ("almah"). Now, I don't know how it works in KJVOnlyLand, but no matter how young a girl may be, if she's pregnant, she's no virgin.

But, Matthew bungled the interpretation, and Luke, copying Matthew, repeated it, and King James, whom you worship above all, all but wrote it in stone, so any further debate with you on the topic is futile.
 
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AV1611VET

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:D Bingo!

Bear in mind, Christianity is the result of combined greek thought, persian theology, jewish messianism and egyptian occultism. It is very likely that, had Ptolemy not commissioned a translation of Jewish scriptures, we would never have had a Jewish Jesus.

There are indirect clues to the fact that early christianity (jewish messianism as it was around the time of the Roman empire) was hijacked by Paul (or the Pauline party). He is the one self-styled apostle of the gentiles, and in taking fringe jewish messianism mainstream by mixing it with the rest of the religious syncretism already under way, the whole thing became eventually highly political.

:D Tilt!

Are you a Rosicrucian or something?

Paul's message didn't differ one iota with Peter's, and the early Christians didn't mix anything with anything.

Christianity is not centered around any belief system (or systems)--- it's centered around a specific Person, Who, had He not lived, Christianity couldn't even begin to thrive.

Remember: we didn't call ourselves Christians, we were called Christians by those who observed us and validated our message with the then-known facts --- first.

As Zenith says: The quality goes in before the name goes on.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Paul's message didn't differ one iota with Peter's, and the early Christians didn't mix anything with anything.

Indeed this is somewhat incorrect. The early church was anything but strictly orthodox. There were a great number of competing christologies. A large number of gnostic sects and a variety of heresiarchs. The reason Christianity looks as it does today is precisely because it became centrally controlled.

For instance, Serapion apparently almost let the "Gospel of Peter" slide into canonical usage in the churchs in Egypt except some folks convinced him to take a closer look at it. It turned out that in large part it was OK by Serapion's proto-orthodox tendencies, it still contained some docetic interpretations. He decried it as a forgery and ultimately it was lost to the ages until a fragment was rediscovered in an 8th-12th century tomb during the 19th century.

Christianity clearly has evoloved from a number of different strains. While there may have been an original Christology, that isn't necessarily what we have today. What we have today was forged through political discussions, committees, Diets, etc. until we ended up with a canon.

There are a wide variety of gospels that have fallen by the wayside over time.

If you wish to proclaim that the surviving gospels and the resultant Christianity is de facto the right one, you will have to prove that claim. Otherwise it is far more rational to see the evolution of the faith.

As I have pointed out before, even in the 18th century Mills was able to find 30,000 variants in the manuscripts available at that time that were all part of the canonical New Testament.

If Truth Will Out always, why do you suppose so many Cathars had to die in France? Why do you suppose there were so many who martyred themselves for their beliefs throughout all of Christian history? Even and especially the heretics?

Christianity is not centered around any belief system (or systems)--- it's centered around a specific Person, Who, had He not lived, Christianity couldn't even begin to thrive.

Very much as Mithraism, or Buddhism, or Islam.
 
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AV1611VET

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So --- there were no Jews who denied that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?

None that I'm aware of.

The very same people who swear up and down that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies then swear up and down in the very same document that the Jews were on their side the whole time.

This passage in John 11 was about a very small group of men assembled behind closed doors. Remember: we're dealing with wickedness in high places.

But -- Isaiah 7:14 in its original Hebrew (remember the Hebrews?) doesn't say "virgin," ("bethulah") it says "young woman" ("almah"). Now, I don't know how it works in KJVOnlyLand, but no matter how young a girl may be, if she's pregnant, she's no virgin.

Not hardly --- your 'bethulah' arguement breaks down in the book of Job:

Job 31:1 said:
I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

Job 31:1 said:
Why then should I think upon a maid? --- hmw umah ethbonen al bethulah

As to your 'almah' --- from MESSIANIC TESTIMONY:

The word 'almah' is used seven times in the Bible. Not once does it describe a married woman. In five cases there is no question about the virginity of the woman involved:
1. Genesis 24.43. Rebekah is clearly an unmarried virgin in this text.
2. Exodus 2.8. So is Miriam in this one.
3. Psalm 68.25. Describing a procession of worshippers of God in the sanctuary. To participate in worship acceptable to God, as described in this Psalm, the 'almoth' (plural of almah) would have to be virgins.
4. / 5. It is used in Song of Songs (1.3, 6.8) in contrast to the wives and concubines of Solomon, who would obviously not be virgins.
 
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AV1611VET

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The reason Christianity looks as it does today is precisely because it became centrally controlled.

Yes and telephone poles throughout the country are beaming subliminal messages into our heads.

Give me a break --- what's this Art Bell stuff?

As Lucy said of Christmas in A Charlie Brown Christmas:
It's run by a big eastern syndicate, you know.

Paul didn't even begin his missionary journeys until he had the full approval of the Apostles:

[bible]Galatians 2:9[/bible]

As I have pointed out before, even in the 18th century Mills was able to find 30,000 variants in the manuscripts available at that time that were all part of the canonical New Testament.

"Manuscripts available at the time" about says it all.

Let's put that to the test with one of the most controversial passages of Scriptures --- the Johanine Comma --- shall we?

We'll even take it beyond the 18th century --- clear back to the 14th in fact --- and see how much manipulation was done.

Fasten your seat belt.

1 John 5:7 --- AV1611 King James Version said:
For there are three that beare record in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 --- AV1587 Geneva Bible said:
For there are three, which beare recorde in heauen, the Father, the Worde, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 --- AV1568 Bishop's Bible said:
For there are three which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holy ghost, and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 --- AV1530 Tyndale Version said:
(For ther are thre which beare recorde in heuen the father the worde and the wholy goost. And these thre are one)
1 John 5:7 --- AV1389 Wycliffe Version said:
For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.

All say exactly the same thing - with absolutely no evidence of manipulation for almost seven centuries.
 
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TheBear

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How is it in anyway unlikely for someone to have the ability to write in prophecy fulfillments, given that they know what the prophecies are? If the Gospel Authors wanted to do so, they could, no randomness involved.
It would have HAD to have been a fictional character
Why is that? Someone could easily embellish and exaggerate the life story of a real person. That happens all the time, especially in legends and folklore. So, I'm not going to rule out that possibility. As a matter of fact, I think it is the most logical and rational possibility.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Yes and telephone poles throughout the country are beaming subliminal messages into our heads.

Give me a break --- what's this Art Bell stuff?

Oops, sorry, been reading too much history of the church lately. You're right. It came about without any central control or changes. My bad.

That's why we are all Catholics (they are and always will be the ORIGINAL Christians, of course)

Let's put that to the test with one of the most controversial passages of Scriptures --- the Johanine Comma --- shall we?
...

All say exactly the same thing - with absolutely no evidence of manipulation for almost seven centuries.

Bad example to pull out. Erasmus himself didn't want to add the JC into his translation until someone produced an original with it. Soon someone did and even Erasmus himself thought it likely a forgery. It wasn't in the first 2 editions of the T.R.

Most scholars today consider the JC to be a later addition to John.

Even the ORIGINAL Christian Church (the Catholic Church, you remember those guys? They gave us every version of the Truth of Jesus from Peter's commission up until the Reformation?) granted that the JC could be open to dispute (source) at least as of 1927 or so.

And all the versions you cite are derived from the TR in that aspect.

It is like inserting a section of genetic code into a DNA sequence. It doesn't cause the DNA sequence to fail to replicate, but it is carried along in later copies.

This is another prime example of evolution of the faith.

Now I've got to put a call into Art Bell's show. I just heard about something called the "Council of Nicea" where aliens taught us the homoisiousness of Jesus with God. Then Constantine set up the telephone poles...
 
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AV1611VET

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Why is that? Someone could easily embellish and exaggerate the life story of a real person. That happens all the time, especially in legends and folklore. So, I'm not going to rule out that possibility. As a matter of fact, I think it is the most logical and rational possibility.

Then you try it. Pick any person in history at random and try and fit them into these 109 prophecies; and see how fast you give up.

Even making someone up --- it can't be done.

As I said before, this person would have had to have been verified independently by:
  • wise men from the east
  • a prophet from the wilderness
In addition, a fictional character claiming the credentials of THE MESSIAH would never have escaped detection.

In addition, Daniel calculates the time of His death down to the very year. That year has long since come and gone.

It just cannot be done with anyone other than Jesus Christ. He fulfilled it by overcoming a mathematical impossibility with anthropic precision.
 
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AV1611VET

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That's why we are all Catholics (they are and always will be the ORIGINAL Christians, of course)

I'm not going to let you pull me into a debate with my Catholic brothers and sisters; so I'm going to just say "no comment" here.
 
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TheBear

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Then you try it. Pick any person in history at random and try and fit them into these 109 prophecies; and see how fast you give up.
Let's do this. Make up a hundred prophesies about a character. I will then incorporate your prophesies into a story of a character who comes along later.

Let's try it! :)
 
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FishFace

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Then you try it. Pick any person in history at random and try and fit them into these 109 prophecies; and see how fast you give up.

How about a guy roaming around in Israel at about 20AD, who was probably a healer, probably claimed to be a prophet or a messiah. No-one paid him much attention until some guy 20 years after he died had some kind of vision about his message, saying he really was the messiah Israel had been after.
Note that if the choice is between a real Jesus who did everything the Bible says, and no Jesus at all, I know which one's more likely.

Even making someone up --- it can't be done.

What do you mean it can't be done? Story writing is done all the time.

As I said before, this person would have had to have been verified independently by:
  • wise men from the east
  • a prophet from the wilderness
I didn't realise these verifications existed outside of the Bible, which, as it happens, is what we're questioning here.

In addition, a fictional character claiming the credentials of THE MESSIAH would never have escaped detection.

Might even have been put to death for heresy.

In addition, Daniel calculates the time of His death down to the very year. That year has long since come and gone.

Oh, so now we have to fit someone who lived recently into prophecies of millenia ago, I didn't realise that was our ball game. How about you make us up some prophecies that are applicable, or we'll do it for you. It's a pointless exercise to try and fit ancient prophecies to modern figures.

It just cannot be done with anyone other than Jesus Christ. He fulfilled it by overcoming a mathematical impossibility with anthropic precision.

Yoohoo, you've still not defined or justified this accusation of mathematical impossibility.
 
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c'mon sense

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Fasten your seat belt.

*snip*

All say exactly the same thing - with absolutely no evidence of manipulation for almost seven centuries.

Fasten your seat belt - that verse is a known (and obvious) later addition to the ancient manuscripts. - So yeah, no evidence of manipulation... ^_^
 
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Split Rock

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Indeed this is somewhat incorrect. The early church was anything but strictly orthodox. There were a great number of competing christologies. A large number of gnostic sects and a variety of heresiarchs. The reason Christianity looks as it does today is precisely because it became centrally controlled.


Yes and telephone poles throughout the country are beaming subliminal messages into our heads.

Give me a break --- what's this Art Bell stuff?
There is nothing "Art Bell" about his claim.

from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity)

"One of the roles of bishops, and the purpose of many Christian writings, was to refute heresies. The earliest of these were generally Christological in nature, that is, they denied either Christ's (eternal) divinity or humanity. For example, Docetism held that Jesus' humanity was merely an illusion, thus denying the incarnation; whereas Arianism held that Jesus was not eternally divine. Most of these groups were dualistic, maintaining that reality was composed into two radically opposing parts: matter, usually seen as evil, and spirit, seen as good. Orthodox Christianity, on the other hand, held that both the material and spiritual worlds were created by God and were therefore both good, and that this was represented in the unified divine and human natures of Christ.[21]

The New Testament itself speaks of the importance of maintaining orthodox doctrine and refuting heresies, showing the antiquity of the concern.[22] The development of doctrine, the position of orthodoxy, and the relationship between the early Church and early heretical groups is a matter of academic debate. Some scholars, drawing upon distinctions between Jewish Christians, Gentile Christians, and other groups such as Gnostics, see Early Christianity as fragmented and with contemporaneous competing orthodoxies."

"In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon,[28] and he used the word "canonized" (kanonizomena) in regards to them.[29] The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.[30] Pope Damasus I's Council of Rome in 382, if the Decretum Gelasianum is correctly associated with it, issued a biblical canon identical to that mentioned above,[31] or if not the list is at least a sixth century compliation.[32] Likewise, Damasus's commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, c. 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West.[33] "
 
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thaumaturgy

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I'm not going to let you pull me into a debate with my Catholic brothers and sisters; so I'm going to just say "no comment" here.

I am not asking you to debate your Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I do, however, expect you to respond to my response to your claims that the church was not built through centralized control early on.

I should hope you didn't ignore all of my post!

While it is not my faith I seem to be doing a pretty decent job of discussing its history.

Please don't discount the very valid points I raised simply because you wish to pick and choose which parts of the history of the faith you accept.

The faith you have today is the result of a very complex and long history. It was not set down from the beginning of time in the KJV. It grew and evolved.

I expect you of all people would address the points I raised. I rather figured your faith was encompased in more than the tagline "If it disagrees with the KJV it's wrong." That seems a rather "thin" creed.
 
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AV1611VET

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Let's do this. Make up a hundred prophesies about a character. I will then incorporate your prophesies into a story of a character who comes along later.

Let's try it! :)

Why don't I just save time and ignore you?
 
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AV1611VET

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I am not asking you to debate your Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I do, however, expect you to respond to my response to your claims that the church was not built through centralized control early on.

And I am not going to debate church history with you (or anyone).

Asking an Independent Baptist to debate the history of some other church is like asking John Pemberton to discuss Pepsi Cola.
 
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Nathan Poe

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None that I'm aware of.

And yet we still have Jews around today who say "It did not happen."

Ironic that it's an old evolution PRATT in reverse -- if all the Jews believed, why do we still have Jews today?



This passage in John 11 was about a very small group of men assembled behind closed doors. Remember: we're dealing with wickedness in high places.

Yes -- a reaction to the Common Greek belief about benevolent "demons."


Not hardly --- your 'bethulah' arguement breaks down in the book of Job:

How exactly does repeating a mistranslation in the KJV validate it?
 
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