Is this Veneration?

[IamAdopted]

Mary is not a gospel but a tradition. Catholics have the same gospel as the rest of us. If you will but talk to them about how to be saved, they will tell you.

Tell you what. Google for Lutheran Agreement. Read Pope John Paul II's words about how salvation is obtained. Salvation is our good news to the world. Mary is something else altogether.

Lisa

I have talked to them. I have freinds that have been through the cc. I also can read what their doctrines and dogma of faith are. It is much different than what the scirptures say. Jesus nor the Apostles say to preach tradtion..

 

[Lisa0315]

I have talked to them. I have freinds that have been through the cc. I also can read what their doctrines and dogma of faith are. It is much different than what the scirptures say. Jesus nor the Apostles say to preach tradtion..

For example? What dogma and doctrines do you have a problem with? Do they not preach the same gospel? If you believe not, show me how.

So far, the only examples you have given me have nothing to do with the Gospel.


Lisa

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have talked to them. I have freinds that have been through the cc. I also can read what their doctrines and dogma of faith are. It is much different than what the scirptures say. Jesus nor the Apostles say to preach tradtion..

The word "tradition" means "to be handed down" or "to be handed off" just as a baton is handed off to the next runner in a relay race.

When Christ or the Apostles spoke ill of traditions they were specific about what tradition... such as....

The tradition of washing hands and feet before eating...

Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash [their] hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

... philosophy and vanity...

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Many times, it is only refereced as YOUR tradition...

Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Money changing and vanity again...

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;


All the while it is clear that there are Holy Traditions, set down by Christ God himself, that we are commanded to keep.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


Forgive me...

 

[IamAdopted]

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now may I ask you what tradtions were taught that you are so saying? What were these traditions that were to be have been taught other than the scriptures, or oral of the same?

 

[IamAdopted]

You show me where they preach the same gospel. Where is purgatory that they preach? Where is the Mass in the scriptures that they teach? where is the pennance that they Preach in scripture or the Gospel? Where is Papal authority that they preach written in scripture.. any of these contradict scripture and therefore are not of the same Gospel of Christ. For the whole NT is the Gospel of Christ.. They preach that they are in the process of being saved by doing all these things. When the Gospel says that we are saved by faith and not of works...

 

[Lisa0315]

Now may I ask you what tradtions were taught that you are so saying? What were these traditions that were to be have been taught other than the scriptures, or oral of the same?

This sermon was to the Jewish Christians. They were to keep to their traditions but their traditions were not to replace the gospel. In other words, they had freedom from the Mosaic law (as in dietary, etc.), but it was good to still keep these traditions.

So, the traditions of men, SOME of them are good to keep. Gathering ourselves together for food and fellowship, passing down the stories and testimonies of those who have gone before, making the sign of the cross. Tradition is not ABOVE scripture, nor is it equal to it, but it does have its place in our faith.

Lisa

 

[IamAdopted]

Dont get me wrong. I do believe that there are truly believers in the cc.. I am not saying tradition is wrong. What I am saying is that scripture is to be what is adhered to as truth. Not tradition..

 

[Lisa0315]

You show me where they preach the same gospel. Where is purgatory that they preach? Where is the Mass in the scriptures that they teach? where is the pennance that they Preach in scripture or the Gospel? Where is Papal authority that they preach written in scripture.. any of these contradict scripture and therefore are not of the same Gospel of Christ. For the whole NT is the Gospel of Christ.. They preach that they are in the process of being saved by doing all these things. When the Gospel says that we are saved by faith and not of works...

Again, NOTHING is the gospel except the good news of our salvation. The rest is icing on the cake so to speak.

Catholics do not believe that they are saved by works. That is an error in what WE non-Catholics are taught.

Let me say it one more time. Repeat after me. Catholics do not believe that works save!

Catholics have it right. We are saved by faith and faith comes by the Grace of God. Faith generates works and works generates yet more faith. This is sound doctrine. Without works, our faith is dead. Without works, we abuse grace. But, once again, WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS. Salvation comes from the work of Christ on the cross, and no other.

As for the rest, Catholics have their reasons. Whether they are in error or not is between them and God.

Are you SURE that YOU have it all right? Are you CERTAIN that you do not practice doctrine that is in error?

We all worship God mostly based on what we have been taught, or...<gasp> the traditions of men!

Think on this: Pre-tribulation Rapture was not taught as doctrine until the 1800's. Now, I believe this doctrine with all my heart, but I do hold that it could be wrong, and guess what? We should be prepared either way! Whether it is Pre-Trib (Baptist), Mid-Trib (Catholic) or Post-Trib (Others), shouldn't we be more worried on daily living so that we will be spiritually prepared for that day regardless of WHEN it occurs?

Lisa

 

[Rhamiel]

"Where is the Mass in the scriptures that they teach?"
the last supper,
"Where is purgatory that they preach?"
this is how we explain justification through the grace of God,
"Where is Papal authority that they preach written in scripture"
What ever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven

ummm penance, I do not remember where I read about that, but if you do wronge should you not try to do good, this is after your sins are allready forgiven so it has no bearing on salvation

 

[Rhamiel]

Lisa,
Catholic is mid-trib? I really do not know, not a big worry for me, I am betting on being dead before this all brakes loose

 

[Lisa0315]

Lisa,
Catholic is mid-trib? I really do not know, not a big worry for me, I am betting on being dead before this all brakes loose

I am almost positive that Catholics are mid-trib, but I will see if I can verify that.

BTW, I wouldn't bank on it. There is nothing that is preventing the Lord's return if pre-trib is right. They are even making the desert bloom in Israel now. Fresh water is springing up from the Dead Sea. Apostasy abounds.

Regardless, live a daily life as if the Lord will return today. Easier to say than do, I know.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

What’s the Catholic Position?


As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Now may I ask you what tradtions were taught that you are so saying? What were these traditions that were to be have been taught other than the scriptures, or oral of the same?

For example...

Baptism by triple immersion, in the name of The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

Prayers of the hours.

The daily singing and chanting of the Psalms.

The proper preparation of The Holy Eucharist.

The sign of the cross.

Salvation as a lifelong process.

Saints in heaven.

...among others.

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

I like the Memorare personally. That is a nice prayer you have and would be nice veneration if said with proper intent. She is our Mother and she loves us, but she is not God and we must not act as if she is.

Proper intent. Thank you.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have talked to them. I have freinds that have been through the cc. I also can read what their doctrines and dogma of faith are. It is much different than what the scirptures say. Jesus nor the Apostles say to preach tradtion..

No it isn't. It is against your personal interpretation of scripture, and the personal interpretation of your church.

You speak with some kind of authority when it comes to interpreting the scriptures. On who's authority do you speak? Where do you get the authority form to interpret scripture in that way that you do? Where does your pastor get his authority from?

 

[IamAdopted]

No it isn't. It is against your personal interpretation of scripture, and the personal interpretation of your church.

You speak with some kind of authority when it comes to interpreting the scriptures. On who's authority do you speak? Where do you get the authority form to interpret scripture in that way that you do? Where does your pastor get his authority from?

Where do you get yours from? Answer me that first.. You say that only through the eyes of the cc do the scriptures get read..I say that only through the Holy Spirit do they get read. You say that the Pope is the vicar of Christ. I say there is no vicar other than the written word of God.

 

[IamAdopted]

No it isn't. It is against your personal interpretation of scripture, and the personal interpretation of your church.

You speak with some kind of authority when it comes to interpreting the scriptures. On who's authority do you speak? Where do you get the authority form to interpret scripture in that way that you do? Where does your pastor get his authority from?

I stand on the authority of the written word of God left to me by my Lord and savior.. On whos authority do you stand?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I stand on the authority of the written word of God left to me by my Lord and savior.. On whos authority do you stand?

Our Lord did not leave us a written word. He left us a Church with Authority to write.

Consequently, we have no right to interpret The Holy Scriptures in any way other that how "The Church" (on Earth) interprets what she wrote.

Now, that leaves us with the question of who is "The Church" on Earth.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Forgive me...

 

[IamAdopted]

Our Lord did not leave us a written word. He left us a Church with Authority to write.

Consequently, we have no right to interpret The Holy Scriptures in any way other that how "The Church" (on Earth) interprets what she wrote.

Now, that leaves us with the question of who is "The Church" on Earth.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Forgive me...

This is where you are mistaken sir..He left His word.. His truth written in the power of the Holy Spirit by the apostles.. Jesus didn't leave me a church. I am part of the Church.. He left His truth so that I may become part of the church.. So that I may be sanctified.. SO that I may not conform to this world but that I may be transformed by the renewing of my mind. By the washing of the water of the word.. this is what my Jesus left me.. A sure foundation. Something I can depend on that will lead me to the truth of My God and not on what some other person says He is.. He left me His utmost treasure.. His Breath written and penned by those whom knew Him Personally so that I too can know HIM in such a way.. What an awesome God I serve..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This is where you are mistaken sir..He left His word.. His truth written in the power of the Holy Spirit by the apostles.. Jesus didn't leave me a church. I am part of the Church.. He left His truth so that I may become part of the church.. So that I may be sanctified.. SO that I may not conform to this world but that I may be transformed by the renewing of my mind. By the washing of the water of the word.. this is what my Jesus left me.. A sure foundation. Something I can depend on that will lead me to the truth of My God and not on what some other person says He is.. He left me His utmost treasure.. His Breath written and penned by those whom knew Him Personally so that I too can know HIM in such a way.. What an awesome God I serve..

Sorry that you disagree.

You are part of the Church Triumphant (The Heavenly Church), but you are not part of the Church militant (The Church on Earth) who was left authority on Earth.

If you were, you would subject yourself the the authority of a Bishop of an orthodox Church.

As it is with all Protestant Churches, you are attempting to "go it alone".

I have no problem with Protestants who reject the teachings of The Church of Rome, however to throw out all the teachings of the ancient Churches in favor of personal interpretation leads to chaos.

All that being said, it does not deminish the fact that you are indeed Christian and a member (IMHO) of The Church Triumphant!

You and all others who are outside The Earthly Church are in my prayers, that we may all be united in the true faith and the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Forgive me...