Is this Veneration?

[Iollain]

Saints, and I am not talking about those whom Rome has declared, but ALL who die in the Lord, are the witnesses encompasssing us. THAT is in the Bible.

Lisa

I think your taking that a bit to literal, if you read Heb 11 & 12, it is not talking about saints actually surrounding us, it is talking about the stories of faith through the ages, and that we should look to Jesus and remember their faith and be faithful.

 

[Lisa0315]

I think your taking that a bit to literal, if you read Heb 11 & 12, it is not talking about saints actually surrounding us, it is talking about the stories of faith through the ages, and that we should look to Jesus and remember their faith and be faithful.

I take the Bible literally. There are witnesses encompassing us...I believe there are witnesses encompassing us.

Please remember: There is at least one thing Fundementalists and Catholics have in common. We take Scripture literally. Catholics take Scripture even more literally than Fundementalists do, and THAT is what we are actually debating here.

There are many passages in the Bible in which some take literally and some take as symbolic. Which is which and how do you know? If we all have the same Holy Spirit, then, how do we come to different conclusions?

Are you SURE that witnesses encompassing us is symbolic? How do you know?

Lisa

 

[Iollain]

Because the writer was trying to prove that we have a long line of faith, not that we have ghosts around us.

 

[Lisa0315]

Because the writer was trying to prove that we have a long line of faith, not that we have ghosts around us.

My grandfather is not a ghost. He is with the Lord, though and he is a witness to all that goes on down here.


Lisa

 

[IamAdopted]

My grandfather is not a ghost. He is with the Lord, though and he is a witness to all that goes on down here.


Lisa

Uh No I don't think so Lisa because when we die to our human bodies we sleep in Christ.. The great cloud of Witnesses are those whom also have walked in faith. When Jesus rose from the dead He also ressurected those whom died in faith knowing of Him..IT was their faith that saved them as it is our faith in Him that saves us.. This is the cloud of witnesses of whom Hebrews is speaking of.. This Chapter is speaking of faith.. Not saints that are sleeping in Christ.. They are not our witnesses but His..

 

[Iollain]

My grandfather is not a ghost. He is with the Lord, though and he is a witness to all that goes on down here.


Lisa

Yes, unless he was risen to Heaven bodily, he is existing as a ghost there. And i don't understand how you would think he is witnessing all that goes on down here.

 

[Latreia]

How can you judge an aparation by fruit? We have to judge everything we see with scipture. For this is what we are to test things with. For it alone is God breathed and Truth..

Perhaps you can direct me to the Holy Scripture that gives instructions to venerate the sign of the cross?

How are Christians instructed to attend Sunday church services and to sing hymns? Where are the titles of those hymns listed?

Must you justify every single detail of your personal relationship with your Lord God? Everything that you say and do every day, your every thought, word, and deed?

I would not dream of throwing down such a uncharitable and unkind challenge to you. Not in the name of faith or for the sake of God's own Truth.

For in such I cannot show you peace and love.

 

[IamAdopted]

Perhaps you can direct me to the Holy Scripture that gives instructions to venerate the sign of the cross?

How are Christians instructed to attend Sunday church services and to sing hymns? Where are the titles of those hymns listed?

Must you justify every single detail of your personal relationship with your Lord God? Everything that you say and do every day, your every thought, word, and deed?

I would not dream of throwing down such a uncharitable and unkind challenge to you. Not in the name of faith or for the sake of God's own Truth.

For in such I cannot show you peace and love.

what do you mean venerate the sign of the cross? You cannot have true love if at first you do not have truth. I will not compromise truth. Jesus never did and I as His follower will not either.. Peace? We are to live at peace as much as we can. But Jesus said He did not come to make peace but war. When it comes to truth there will always be war.. Until He reigns here on earth... I can love and still not compromise Gods word.. I do not see apparations as being from God. I have tested what has happened with scripture. We attend church on Sunday because of the ressurection of Christ. We sing yes we do.. We sing praise unto our God as is written in the OT and the NT.. The title of our songs come from the message of the bible.. The message of Christ... I didn't throw this down to challenge you.. God says it in His word.. If you think that it is uncharitable then maybe you should ask the Lord why He had His aposltes speak this..My Lord does not want me to be deceived. He does not want me to be lead astray.. He loves me more than even I can fathom. So therefore He has left me His word so that I may know what the will of my Father is.. For this I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. For if anyone comes and preaches a different gospel I am to not listen or bid them Godspeed..

 

[Lisa0315]

Passion is a good thing. Emotionalism is not. Lets keep a cool head and a respectful tone.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Perhaps you can direct me to the Holy Scripture that gives instructions to venerate the sign of the cross?

How are Christians instructed to attend Sunday church services and to sing hymns? Where are the titles of those hymns listed?

Must you justify every single detail of your personal relationship with your Lord God? Everything that you say and do every day, your every thought, word, and deed?

I would not dream of throwing down such a uncharitable and unkind challenge to you. Not in the name of faith or for the sake of God's own Truth.

For in such I cannot show you peace and love.

Making the sign of the cross is as ancient as the Bible. For those who could not write in ancient times, the Tau (looks like a cross) was used much like signing with an X. After the first destruction of the temple, the Tau is believed to be the sign by which Jews were sealed. When Jesus said, "I am the Alpha and Omega", the translation to Ancient Hebrew would be "I Am the Aleph and the Tau". The Aleph is the Head of an Ox, and the Tau, again is a cross. Once the early church began, believers used a secret sign to identify themselves to other believers. They would draw the sign of the cross in the sand or they would cross themselves. Pharissees of the day changed the Tau so that it no longer looked like a cross, such was their outrage over the use by Christians. It is likely that it will be the Tau that will be used to seal the believers during the tribulation. This is the origin and the future of the sign of the cross and should not be mocked.

See how handy traditon can be?

Lisa

 

[Latreia]

Making the sign of the cross is as ancient as the Bible. For those who could not write in ancient times, the Tau (looks like a cross) was used much like signing with an X. After the first destruction of the temple, the Tau is believed to be the sign by which Jews were sealed. When Jesus said, "I am the Alpha and Omega", the translation to Ancient Hebrew would be "I Am the Aleph and the Tau". The Aleph is the Head of an Ox, and the Tau, again is a cross. Once the early church began, believers used a secret sign to identify themselves to other believers. They would draw the sign of the cross in the sand or they would cross themselves. Pharissees of the day changed the Tau so that it no longer looked like a cross, such was their outrage over the use by Christians. It is likely that it will be the Tau that will be used to seal the believers during the tribulation. This is the origin and the future of the sign of the cross and should not be mocked.

See how handy traditon can be?

Lisa

Traditions are to be respected, especially those that belong to others. Why use Holy Scriptures to attack the faiths of others?

My post was just showing that very idea. I love the sign of the cross, the Christian icons, everything that my fellow children of the light has envisioned because of our holy faith.

To my mind, there are no divisions implied in the scriptures, only unity. To use verses to build fences and exclude other hearts and souls is tragic and breaks the heart.

 

[Lisa0315]

Traditions are to be respected, especially those that belong to others. Why use Holy Scriptures to attack the faiths of others?

My post was just showing that very idea. I love the sign of the cross, the Christian icons, everything that my fellow children of the light has envisioned because of our holy faith.

To my mind, there are no divisions implied in the scriptures, only unity. To use verses to build fences and exclude other hearts and souls is tragic and breaks the heart.

I know. I was supporting you. Naturally, there are doctrines that we disagree on, (Catholics and Non-Catholics). Still, we are better to dispute with those who water down the gospel to a "no repentance required" gospel than to infight with our true brothers and sisters.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

what do you mean venerate the sign of the cross? You cannot have true love if at first you do not have truth. I will not compromise truth. Jesus never did and I as His follower will not either.. Peace? We are to live at peace as much as we can. But Jesus said He did not come to make peace but war. When it comes to truth there will always be war.. Until He reigns here on earth... I can love and still not compromise Gods word.. I do not see apparations as being from God. I have tested what has happened with scripture. We attend church on Sunday because of the ressurection of Christ. We sing yes we do.. We sing praise unto our God as is written in the OT and the NT.. The title of our songs come from the message of the bible.. The message of Christ... I didn't throw this down to challenge you.. God says it in His word.. If you think that it is uncharitable then maybe you should ask the Lord why He had His aposltes speak this..My Lord does not want me to be deceived. He does not want me to be lead astray.. He loves me more than even I can fathom. So therefore He has left me His word so that I may know what the will of my Father is.. For this I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. For if anyone comes and preaches a different gospel I am to not listen or bid them Godspeed..

You have this wrong! Jesus did bring a sword, but that sword of truth cuts to the heart of the unbeliever. There IS to be peace, love, and unity between brothers and sisters.

What different gospel do Catholics preach?

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Now, back to the topic:

Catholics,
What do you say to the OP prayer? Is this crossing a line between worship and veneration? I believe that it is. What do you say to those who treat Mary equal to Jesus? What of the Co-Redemptress doctrine? (Is it doctrine yet?)

Lisa

 

[IamAdopted]

You have this wrong! Jesus did bring a sword, but that sword of truth cuts to the heart of the unbeliever. There IS to be peace, love, and unity between brothers and sisters.

What different gospel do Catholics preach?

Lisa

well you will have to read for yourself what they believe.. Mary co redemtrix, On and on.. This is not the Gospel that has been preached by the Apostles. So therefore this must be a different one.. I don't even see Mary talked about by the Apostles.. Let alone venerating her.

 

[Lisa0315]

well you will have to read for yourself what they believe.. Mary co redemtrix, On and on.. This is not the Gospel that has been preached by the Apostles. So therefore this must be a different one.. I don't even see Mary talked about by the Apostles.. Let alone venerating her.

Mary is not a gospel but a tradition. Catholics have the same gospel as the rest of us. If you will but talk to them about how to be saved, they will tell you.

Tell you what. Google for Lutheran Agreement. Read Pope John Paul II's words about how salvation is obtained. Salvation is our good news to the world. Mary is something else altogether.

Lisa

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

And I had a life ring...

Would you not ask (pray) me to save you?

This is the same "temporal" sense that we say Mary saves.

Mary is not equal to Christ, however, if she asks for something on your behalf, he listens.

That does not mean that you should not be asking him yourself also... the prayers of the righteous availeth much (James 5:16), and she is the most righteous of women.

Do not confuse the original meaning of the word prayer as being solely associated with the worship of God.

To pray means literally "to ask".

When we pray to a Saint, we are asking them to assist us in our prayers, to interceed for us. In the very same way that you might ask a friend to pray for you.

We (Catholic and Orthodox) do not see the Saints as dead. They are alive and with Christ, even though they are without physical bodies until the general resurrection on the last day.

Forgive me...

 

[Lisa0315]

What am I to forgive you for?

What of the Co-Redemptress doctrine? Isn't that taking veneration a step too far?

Lisa

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What am I to forgive you for?

What of the Co-Redemptress doctrine? Isn't that taking veneration a step too far?

Lisa

Sorry Lisa, but "Co-Redemptress" is not Orthodox, and therefore I can not answer for it. (IMHO ~ Yes, it goes too far.)

The Orthodox see her as an intercessor only.

From: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/dmitri_veneration_mary.htm

The Virgin Mary in the Orthodox view is not regarded as a mediatrix or co-redemptress. She is an intercessor for us, and the content of prayer addressed to her is a request for her intercession. The Orthodox concept of the Church is the basic reason for the invocation of the Theotokos and all the saints. The Militant Church on earth and the Victorious Church in heaven are intimately bound together in love. If it is proper for one sinner to ask another sinner to pray for him, how much more fitting it must be to ask the saints already glorified and near the throne of God to pray for us. Surely, they know something of what goes on here, for else how could there be rejoicing in heaven over the conversion of one sinner? (Luke 15:10) The saints in heaven are equals of the angels (Luke 20:36), who are used by God in the accomplishment of His purpose (Acts 12:7)

Forgive me... (see my Blog)

 

[Latreia]

Sorry Lisa, but "Co-Redemptress" is not Orthodox, and therefore I can not answer for it. (IMHO ~ Yes, it goes too far.)

The Orthodox see her as an intercessor only.



Forgive me... (see my Blog)

Ah, gladly, and thanks for the invite. Good night all.

Mea Culpa

Peace