Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[lionroar0]

why do catholics put so much emphisis on mary.... shouldn't Jesus get 100% of your focus or is He not worthy?

It seems that you are coming from a point of view that, honoring Mary and the Mother of God detracts from Jesus.

We belive that we are all a Christian family.

It's like a person's own family. I don't think that a person thinks that because they maybe focusing on their sister or brother they are taking something away from their parents. Or if one is focusing on their mother this takes away something from the father or vise versa.

Also the Mass is very Jesus centered. It is the highest from of worship given to Jesus.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

For it is God through His word that is able to save, transform, and bring us where we need to be.. Not any tradtion of man can change a person.. Only God through His word...

Good a Christian should not be ashamed of the gospel of Christ.

For it is God through His word that is able to save, transform, and bring us where we need to be.. Not any tradtion of man can change a person.. Only God through His word...

I agree.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

I have seen anger and making it "personal" often on here and other Apologetics boards, so this is nothing new.
I am sure the Atheists are getting a kick out it.

They sure are.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Just an FYI on Mary Ann Collins.

http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1479&whichpage=28#23973

Changing biographys.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]quote: I spent over two years as a postulant and a novice. After two years of training and preparation, our mother superior decided that I should not make vows. The purpose of being a novice is for the leaders of the convent, as well as the candidate, to decide whether or not the candidate should go ahead and take vows. If the candidate does take vows, at first they are temporary, for one year at a time. There are still years of testing and discerning before permanent vows are taken. At least, that's how it was done at our convent. I left the convent on good terms and have been in contact with the sisters from time to time since then. ​

[/FONT]

Her current biography has been edited to rephrase this:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]quote: I spent over two years as a postulant and a novice. This was a time of testing for the leaders of the convent, and for me, to decide whether or not I should make vows. My mother superior had some questions about my calling, and she and the leadership decided that I should not remain in the convent. I left the convent on good terms and have occasionally been in contact with the sisters since then. ​

[/FONT]

In the 2001 version, she continues:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]quote:

I believe that decision for me to leave the convent was God's protection, because we didn't get regular physical examinations at our convent; we only saw a doctor if we were really sick. When I got home, my parents had me get a physical examination. I had pre-cancerous polyps in my colon. A few years later I had cancer in both breasts. (A doctor found the lumps during a routine physical exam.) If I had stayed in the convent, I would have died of colon cancer and breast cancer. (Dying is never fun. But being eaten up with cancer is definitely not my choice of how to do it, if it can be avoided.)


http://www.speroforum.com/wiki/default.aspx/SperoWiki/MaryAnnCollins.html


Peace[/FONT]
​

 

[IamAdopted]

Originally Posted by lionroar0
The Scripturtes according to who? The way you intepret them?

This just means that you are accountable to yourself and the way you interpret Scriptures.

If you decide your are right then you are right. If you decide you are wrong then you are wrong.

Peace

1 Corinthians 2

11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[prophecy4]

It seems that you are coming from a point of view that, honoring Mary and the Mother of God detracts from Jesus.

We belive that we are all a Christian family.

It's like a person's own family. I don't think that a person thinks that because they maybe focusing on their sister or brother they are taking something away from their parents. Or if one is focusing on their mother this takes away something from the father or vise versa.

Also the Mass is very Jesus centered. It is the highest from of worship given to Jesus.

Peace

lol... are you kidding... well then, it should be perfectly ok for me to build a statue of you and bow and front of it and ask you to pray for me?

what about the 1st and 2nd commandments?

here is where it clashes with focus... when you take the time out to build a statue... surround it with candles like a shrine... bow in front of it and put it in a building that was built to worship God... then making jewelry of the person...

you guys have more stuff with Mary on it than Jesus... why is that? to anyone looking... i would think you worship Mary... where is Jesus in all of this...

 

[icedtea]

It is a breaking of that commandment.

 

[lionroar0]

11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Then why did St. Paul need to write His letter to the Corinthians?

They were belivers and should have no need of St. Paul writting to them. They should have known

Also who is we? Is it we as in Christians or does he mean we as a group outside of the corinthians?

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

lol... are you kidding... well then, it should be perfectly ok for me to build a statue of you and bow and front of it and ask you to pray for me?

what about the 1st and 2nd commandments?

We keep them.

here is where it clashes with focus... when you take the time out to build a statue... surround it with candles like a shrine... bow in front of it and put it in a building that was built to worship God... then making jewelry of the person...

ANd what is wrong with statues?

you guys have more stuff with Mary on it than Jesus... why is that? to anyone looking... i would think you worship Mary... where is Jesus in all of this...

You know we make more stuff of Mary then Jesus? How do you know this? Did you take a census?

We don't worship Mary. We worship Jesus.

Jesus is in the Mass.

The Pieta by Michael Angelo.




Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't think it's moot for a teacher to be asked for some confirmation of his/her dogmatic proclaimation - especially if it's accompanied with anathamas, excommunications and pronoucements of heresy - and is an issue that divides us. I do not agree with your epistemology that something is dogmatically true if the teacher of it so self-claims and teaches. And I have a hunch you don't either - unless that teacher is the CC. If everyone is right if they so self claim and have a "peace" about it, then how to you suggest we go about advancing theological unity and consensus? How do you suggest we guard against error? You are aware that we are warned - sternly and often - of false prophets, false teachers, antichrists, those that would lead many astray, we are command to "test the spirits" to see if they are true, Jesus praised the Ephesian Christians for "testing" the apostolic claims of some and finding them false, so if we just accept everything anyone says as infallibly correct if they have a peace about it, how do you suggest we guard against that? And whatever your answer may be, does it apply to your denomination or just to every other one? I know the answer of the RCC, I'm just interested if you agree with it.



Pax!


- Josiah

We have shared with you why we believe what we do.. you do not agree wit us, so go in peace CJ. I think you have proved your point- now go in peace.

 

[Benedicta00]

Is there a reason why you want to switch topics?

Yes, because your favorite one, the PV has been done to death. You proved your point, nothing else you can add CJ, go in peace with what ever it is you believe.

 

[Benedicta00]

That is man made theology..NOT in the Bible. Sheesh...

So is sola scripture... geez..

 

[IamAdopted]

Then why did St. Paul need to write His letter to the Corinthians?

They were belivers and should have no need of St. Paul writting to them. They should have known

Also who is we? Is it we as in Christians or does he mean we as a group outside of the corinthians?

Peace

For they had sins in the church from what they had learned from tradtions they lived in. Much like today... Wouldn't you say?

 

[prophecy4]

We keep them.

really? the 2nd one says not to bow down yourselves in front of statues... but i guess no catholic has done that...

ANd what is wrong with statues?

don't build any statues of anything in any likeness... did you even bother to read the 1st and 2nd commandment... Exodus 20

You know we make more stuff of Mary then Jesus? How do you know this? Did you take a census?

We don't worship Mary. We worship Jesus.

Jesus is in the Mass.

The Pieta by Michael Angelo.




Peace

i know because i have eyes... where are your Jesus beads? where are your Jesus statues in the church surrounded by candles?

based on observation... i've seen statues of Mary in the car... rosary beads hanging on the rearview... statues in the church... statues in the home... again, i ask... why so much focus on Mary? there is no way in the making and buying of all the Mary periphinalia that Jesus is 100% of the focus... it's not possible...

the Bible never says Mary intercedes on our behalf in heaven... that's not biblical... it does however say Jesus does... so why not ask Him to intercede on your behalf? I'm sure He has more pull than Mary...
if you're going to ask someone to intercede and the head guy says you can come directly to him... why don't you?

 

[icedtea]

Jesus has more pull than Mary? Of course, because he never sinned, was raised from the dead, and is God.

 

[Iollain]

Good question, and I TOTALLY affirm it when people ASK what another means when they aren't sure...


I consider Mary to be a GREAT model or example for us, and in THAT sense consider her to be a Saint - in fact, I would place her among the chief of such. I also highly regard her in so far as her role in salvation history, since she is the mother of Jesus - who is the God/man (thus Mary is the Mother of God) and also our Savior and Lord. She has an altogether unique role there.


Now, to those pesky WORDS....
It's amazing to me how much of our troubles in these interdenominational conversations is simply a matter of words....


Devotion = To focus on, to regard highly.
Adoration = To regard with admiration.
Revere = To respect, to honor, to hold in esteem.
Venerate = To admire with deference
Worship = To admire, revere, respect, to regard as worthy of praise or honor.

In those senses, all those things apply to my relationship to Mary. I do NOT regard her as divine (no denomination does). I do NOT regard her as sinless. But I do regard her as blessed.


My years as a guest in the Catholic Church moved and blessed me in many ways (indeed, my entrance into Lutheranism was in large part via Catholicism). ONE of those ways was an introduction to Mary - and a deep appreciation for that. She does provide a perspective on all this that touched and moved this teenage guy, and deeped and deepens my faith in Christ. That should NOT be taken to mean that I embrace the various Catholic Marian dogmas (I generally don't - although I don't accept them, either). It should also not be taken to mean that I regard Mary as equal to Christ or the Trinity - that would be dishonoring her profoundly (and no Christian known to me would disagree). But I do feel a devotion to her as a GREAT model of faith and for her role in my salvation and in the life of the Savior who is my everything.


I realize I'm a difficult guy to pigeon hole, LOL. I'm SOLIDLY conservative/traditional Reformation Protestant - embracing (rather passionately) Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Sola Fide, Soli Deo Gloria, as well as the epistemological tool of Sola Scriptura. I'm landing squarely in conservative/traditional Lutheranism (and with a huge respect for the Reformed movement, too). But, I'm about as far away from being "anti-catholic" as a 'Protestant' can be. I consider myself a part of the 2000 year heritage and tradition of Christianity - and that largely via Catholicism (big C), as Lutheranism is. Luther started nothing new but called himself "Catholic" all his life (and was buried with his Rosary). While I disagree with a handful of dogmas insisted upon by the Catholic denomination and don't agree with (but don't disagree with) a few more, I am of that tradition - it is my roots, my home. I consider the CC to be a valid denomination, I consider her clergy and minsitry as valid, I consider her members to be my FULL, UNseparated brothers and sisters. It's just not mutual. My disagreements are theological - a matter of doctrine, not spiritual - a matter of the heart. It makes me neither anti-catholic or anti-protestant, and thus not very popular in either 'camp,' LOL. It's okay. I guess it depends what matters - my theology (solidly Protestant) or my heart (solidly ecumenical). Keep reading my posts, you're confusion will grow, LOL!



Pax!


- Josiah

ok thanks, i was a wonderin what your devotion to Mary was.

 

[Nadiine]

Is it any wonder why Protestants are seen as "putting Mary down"?
This is WHY. We refuse to Elevate her (giving her glory or going to her as a Mediator to God etc.), and in putting her in her rightful place, and contending against such elevations, it seems as if we don't give her ANY honor or think she's anything special at all.

This is how it happens. John the Baptist is elevated by Jesus too, why is he ignored? I may never understand this.
But, I'll unsubscribe to this thread anyways becuz I'm really done with this obsession on these threads with her.

 

[prophecy4]

Is it any wonder why Protestants are seen as "putting Mary down"?
This is WHY. We refuse to Elevate her (giving her glory or going to her as a Mediator to God etc.), and in putting her in her rightful place, and contending against such elevations, it seems as if we don't give her ANY honor or think she's anything special at all.

This is how it happens. John the Baptist is elevated by Jesus too, why is he ignored? I may never understand this.
But, I'll unsubscribe to this thread anyways becuz I'm really done with this obsession on these threads with her.

where does it say Mary is a mediator? where where where?

i know the Bible says Christ is a mediator... so why should anyone go to Mary?

did Mary just become a mediator because someone decided it was so? because i don't see it anywhere in the Bible...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

.

The Nt was written in Greek and the word used was adelphos.

It could mean brother. It could mean half brother as not having the same two parents. It could mean brothers is Christ. It could mean counsins.

The point is if James was Jesus's brother then James would be refered to as the Second Son of Mary.

As it stands in the Scriptures there is only one Son of Mary and that is Jesus.

I have no idea why people would choose a secular and humanistic intepretation of Scripture over the one that the men that put together the Bible used. AS if yep we can trust them with the Bible, the Hypostatic union, the Trinity but got it all wrong when it came to the Ever-Virginity of Mary.

Jesus was a Hebrew. Not an Arab two different cultures and languages. Hows that?

Peace

You have a wonderful way of twisting things. It would be HALF brother since they had the SAME mother and diffrent fathers. COME on...at least make sense. It the catholic denomination that tries to twist it to make it say something it doesn't. Just because it doesn't say James t he second..DUH..Jesus was the FIRST born..if there is a first...there is undoubtedly a second?? IF Not, why say first?? COME on....YOU stop adding to scripture. the chuch is the body of believers..NOT the catholic denomination. NO where as CJ has pointed out several times ANY mention of pope, bishops NOT EVEN catholic denomination. GET a grip.

 

[lionroar0]

really? the 2nd one says not to bow down yourselves in front of statues... but i guess no catholic has done that...

I think the word your looking for is an idol. A statue isn't an idol. An idol is a false god.

don't build any statues of anything in any likeness... did you even bother to read the 1st and 2nd commandment... Exodus 20

The word you are looking for is a graven image as in a false god.

You ever read about the Temple of Solomon full of statues and images? God approved of the temple.

i know because i have eyes... where are your Jesus beads? where are your Jesus statues in the church surrounded by candles?

Jesus is in the tabernacle.

based on observation... i've seen statues of Mary in the car... rosary beads hanging on the rearview... statues in the church... statues in the home... again, i ask... why so much focus on Mary? there is no way in the making and buying of all the Mary periphinalia that Jesus is 100% of the focus... it's not possible...

Umm well let's see a rosary usually has a cross or crucifix and the begining. This reminds us of Jesus. The Rosary is in fact part of the Gospel. So yes it does remind me Of Christ.

First Luminous Mystery - The Baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan
And a voice came from the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Matthew 3:17

The Second Luminous Mystery - The Wedding at Cana, Christ Manifested
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.
John 2:11

The Third Luminous Mystery - the Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God: "This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Mark 1:15

The Fourth Luminous Mystery - The Transfiguration of Jesus
And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.
Matthew 17:2

The Fifth Luminous Mystery - The Last Supper, the Holy Eucharist
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:26



The Sorrowful Mysteries

(Said on Tuesdays, Fridays, and daily from Ash Wednesday until Easter Sunday)​

First Sorrowful Mystery - Agony of Jesus in the Garden
I Desire True Repentance for My Sins
Think of...
Our Lord Jesus in the garden of Gethsemani, suffering a bitter agony for our sins.
Matthew 26:36



Second Sorrowful Mystery - Jesus is Scourged at the Pillar
Think of the Passion of The Christ.
The cruel scourging at the pillar that our Lord suffered; the heavy blows that tore His flesh.
Matthew 27:26



Third Sorrowful Mystery - Jesus is Crowned With Thorns
Pray for Moral Courage.
Think of...
The crown of sharp thorns that was forced upon our Lord's Head and the patience with which He endured the pain for our sins.
Matthew 27:27



Fourth Sorrowful Mystery - Jesus Carries His Cross
Pray for the Virtue of Patience
Think of...
The heavy Cross, so willingly carried by our Lord, and ask Him to help you to carry your crosses without complaint.
Matthew 27:32



Fifth Sorrowful Mystery - The Crucifixion of Jesus
Pray for the Grace of Final Perseverance
Think of...
The love which filled Christ's Sacred Heart during His three hours' agony on the Cross, and ask Him to be with you at the hour of death.
Matthew 27:33

Peace