The St. Nina Quarterly

[Gwendolyn]

Link: http://www.stnina.org

I was just wondering if this Orthodox publication is considered "o"rthodox? Since someone mentioned that the Orthodox Church had functioning woman deacons until about 1920 I have been reading curiously and I found articles in that quarterly about it. I am interested to know if it is considered sound because it says that St. Nektarios ordained/appointed (still a debate about how they came to be deacons) a woman deacon last in 1911 (she was a nun).

From what I've read, these female deacons have mainly been nuns/consecrated virgins whose ministry extended beyond baptism (since in the early Church, the candidate was nude) and into the realm of taking care of the Sanctuary, and taking the "presanctified gifts" (is that the term you use?) to women/nuns who cannot leave their homes to come to church.

I'm just trying to learn. What I like about the articles I found on this site is that it strongly states that in no way was a women's diaconate a stepping stone to priesthood; the male diaconate always took precedence, but the two had complementary role. So this site doesn't advocate women's ordination to the priesthood but it does talk about the diaconate.

What do you, as Orthodox Christians, think of this? Is it reputable? Should I, as someone with interest, read materials like this, or are there more "o"rthodox things I could read?

Thanks for your responses.

 

[Knowledge3]

The best place for Orthodox literature is the parish library.

The site appears to have an Orthodox leaning, and the only way to verify that is to contact the site admin.

 

[Matrona]

I don't know much one way or the other, but people agitating for the "restoration" of the "females in the diaconate" make me exceedingly nervous and would be on my personal "avoid" list.

 

[Michael G]

The best place for Orthodox literature is the parish library.

The site appears to have an Orthodox leaning, and the only way to verify that is to contact the site admin.

They appear to be pushing for ideas that are not in line with Orthodox teaching. I hate to agree with her, but I must agree with Matrona on this one.

 

[Gwendolyn]

They appear to be pushing for ideas that are not in line with Orthodox teaching. I hate to agree with her, but I must agree with Matrona on this one.

Fair enough. But I am not so much concerned with their advocating the restoration of female deacons as I am with whether or not the existence of female deacons in the Orthodox Church is a fact. Not in the sense that they were ordained as in ordination being a stepping-stone to priesthood; but even in the sense that they were appointed to perform specific duties.

Is it true that female deacons were appointed in the Orthodox Church in any capacity until roughly the 1920s? Or is this something that people have "cooked up"?

 

[choirfiend]

It's true that they existed, but they actually fell out of practice in the 600s or so. Any that have been appointed/ordained since then have been few and far between or very unusual cases, like in the case of St. Nektarios. Some people are for the resurrection of the office, some aren't. Me, I'm for organic things in the Church, so imo, we gotta have a better reason for deaconesses beyond the cry of "hey! We used to have them, so let's have them again b/c we can!" to bring them back.

 

[Michael G]

Fair enough. But I am not so much concerned with their advocating the restoration of female deacons as I am with whether or not the existence of female deacons in the Orthodox Church is a fact. Not in the sense that they were ordained as in ordination being a stepping-stone to priesthood; but even in the sense that they were appointed to perform specific duties.

Is it true that female deacons were appointed in the Orthodox Church in any capacity until roughly the 1920s? Or is this something that people have "cooked up"?

They are not in regular use. They might have been used that recently, I have not taken the time to look that up. They were used in the very early church to assist in the administration of baptism, for very practical reasons, but they were in no way clergy.

 

[Matrona]

Is it true that female deacons were appointed in the Orthodox Church in any capacity until roughly the 1920s? Or is this something that people have "cooked up"?

First, there needs to be a distinction drawn between "female deacons" and "deaconesses".

"Female deacons" implies the office/ordination and liturgical capacities of a deacon being held by a woman, which has never, ever been the case.

"Deaconesses" were women who were chosen for functions like assisting in baptisms of adult women and bringing sick women the Eucharist (to avoid scandalizing the community). This office fell out of use around the 4th century (might have the date wrong but it was fairly early), when adult women began being baptized clothed and it wasn't quite so scandalous for a priest to go visit a woman.

The office of deaconess was revived on a very small scale by the hierarch St. Nektarios, who reposed in 1920. It was not in use between the 4th century and St. Nektarios.

FTR, with the bishop's permission, women/girls are able to serve at the altar when there is need of them, such as at a women's monastery when they have a priest there to serve Liturgy for them, or just generally when the menfolk are scarce. This doesn't have anything to do with the historical office of deaconess, I just thought I would note it in case someone thinks we're a bunch of sexist pigs.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Church of Greece has already restored the female diaconate a few years ago. And yes for now it only limited to nuns. While it may be a good idea, theres really no need for them, the ancient order of female deacons were simply to assist in baptism of women. Since baptising adults in the nude was done away with so was the female diaconate.heres a link:http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/158/Women.htm

 

[Philothei]

First, there needs to be a distinction drawn between "female deacons" and "deaconesses".

"Female deacons" implies the office/ordination and liturgical capacities of a deacon being held by a woman, which has never, ever been the case.

"Deaconesses" were women who were chosen for functions like assisting in baptisms of adult women and bringing sick women the Eucharist (to avoid scandalizing the community). This office fell out of use around the 4th century (might have the date wrong but it was fairly early), when adult women began being baptized clothed and it wasn't quite so scandalous for a priest to go visit a woman.

The office of deaconess was revived on a very small scale by the hierarch St. Nektarios, who reposed in 1920. It was not in use between the 4th century and St. Nektarios.

FTR, with the bishop's permission, women/girls are able to serve at the altar when there is need of them, such as at a women's monastery when they have a priest there to serve Liturgy for them, or just generally when the menfolk are scarce. This doesn't have anything to do with the historical office of deaconess, I just thought I would note it in case someone thinks we're a bunch of sexist pigs.

I agree with you. Then again in Greece the practice has been Diackonesses and not women Deacons. Even so there are sporadic examples of women with aspirations to be women deacons in E.O still it will never be used as a stepping stone to female priesthood.

The reason would be as always our Tradition. It was never part of the Tradition of our Faith to have female priests, and that is where it ends. It has nothing to do with male soviegnism as much as it has to do with our Holy Tradition and the attributes of God as Father, and Christ being a male, and the Priest being the "Typos" '(prototype)and icon (ikona) of Christ. This is the main reason why women priests were never and will never exist in our Church.

God bless,
Philothei

 

[Gwendolyn]

The reason would be as always our Tradition. It was never part of the Tradition of our Faith to have female priests, and that is where it ends. It has nothing to do with male soviegnism as much as it has to do with our Holy Tradition and the attributes of God as Father, and Christ being a male, and the Priest being the "Typos" '(prototype)and icon (ikona) of Christ. This is the main reason why women priests were never and will never exist in our Church.

Amen I like your posts, Philothei. Have you been around CF very long?

 

[Franze]

Very interesting topic, If I have understood, the word Diackonesses ois only for baptisms?

 

[Michael G]

Very interesting topic, If I have understood, the word Diackonesses ois only for baptisms?

Yes, deaconesses were NOT female deacons and were NOT members of the clergy.

 

[choirfiend]

Any more than the ranks of Widows or Virgins were clergy. They all have a role in the life of the Church, for sure, and are all part of the royal priesthood of all believers, called to minister according to their gifts--but deaconesses were not just female deacons who served the same role as deacons in the Liturgical life of the Church.

 

[Matrona]

Getting back to the OP, I went to the website and read the section on "Altar Girls". It should be rather telling because 100% of the responses posted are in favor of "altar girls".

Just as an aside, I thought it would be an interesting slice of poetic justice if the subject of the problematic photograph turned out to be a boy with long hair.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Yes, deaconesses were NOT female deacons and were NOT members of the clergy.

Which pretty much shoots down some of the most ardent arguments of the side which says women should be priests....It was a shame, but I had to get rid of my beloved copy of "Why Not Women" (as preachers/priests) when I became a catechumen. Nobody asked me to, I just knew I couldn't keep it.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Yes, deaconesses were NOT female deacons and were NOT members of the clergy.

Any more than the ranks of Widows or Virgins were clergy. They all have a role in the life of the Church, for sure, and are all part of the royal priesthood of all believers, called to minister according to their gifts--but deaconesses were not just female deacons who served the same role as deacons in the Liturgical life of the Church.

I only wish that this were the dominant thinking in the west An appreciation of women and their role and gifts, and also respect for Holy Tradition. Where the existence of deaconesses is not problematic because the Church understands where they fit in history, in Tradition, and in the life of the Church, and there is no sense of inequality about it.

Getting back to the OP, I went to the website and read the section on "Altar Girls". It should be rather telling because 100% of the responses posted are in favor of "altar girls".

Just as an aside, I thought it would be an interesting slice of poetic justice if the subject of the problematic photograph turned out to be a boy with long hair.

Didn't catch that section... oh dear... but LOL at the boy with long hair.

 

[Philothei]

Dear Veritas et Puritas,
No I have only been here for 3 months, but enjoy the fellowship and information exchange

God bless,
Philothei

 

[Michael G]

Which pretty much shoots down some of the most ardent arguments of the side which says women should be priests....It was a shame, but I had to get rid of my beloved copy of "Why Not Women" (as preachers/priests) when I became a catechumen. Nobody asked me to, I just knew I couldn't keep it.

It does shoot it down like a lead airplane with no engines.

 

[gorion]

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/diaconate/chapter_7.htm

This is an interesting read.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Deaconess

as is this.