Why easter.

[reubenabraham]

Anawim if the passover is the mass why not celebrate a Special Passover as Jesus did? We do partake in a mini-Passover when we receive communion.

AMGD- I do agree with a mini Passover is celebrated when we receive communion.

I would disagree with you and would have to go back and look up my research one of the discussion of moving the Resurection celebration
was to break away from the Jewish Christians in the early church settings. It is also the only celebration that we were asked to celebrate twice by God. I think we should listen to God as he speaks to us through scripture.

Foundthelight " Passover was, and is, for the nation of Israel in remembrance of God saving them from the Egyptians.........I am not of the nation of Israel."

I would say we are all of the nation of Israel:
1-Jesus is the God of Creation
2-We are all descendants of Adam & Eve
3-We are all descendants of Noah

Partaking of the elements during communion is a symbol of Gods saving grace.

It is the Lord our God saying I saved you in the Past, I will save future generation through their Belief in my Son. He is here for Jew & gentile there is no difference between Jew & gentile. To honor the God of Israel is to honor the God of the world. One of the probelms we face in the world is that non-beleievers want us to have this dichotomy. As stated by others we do in reality celebrate min-passover at communion and my point is we should celebrate the full passover .
We celebrate Palm Sunday, we mourn the Crucifixtion, we celebrate the Resurection why is the Passover left out?

 

[Gwendolyn]

We celebrate Palm Sunday, we mourn the Crucifixtion, we celebrate the Resurection why is the Passover left out?

It isn't left out. Christ is the Paschal Lamb. He is the fulfilment of the Passover and all its hopes.

 

[anawim]

Anawim if the passover is the mass why not celebrate a Special Passover as Jesus did? We do partake in a mini-Passover when we receive communion.

Catholics don't look at the Mass as a mini-Passover, but as the fulfillment of all of what the OT Passover was. The Mass is celebrating Passover everyday. No need for anything else.

 

[reubenabraham]

In repl to Prodromos:
I did some research and could not find anything saying that Oestern (sp?) meant resurection. One reference said it meant sunrise.
I did find the following?
According to St. Bede, an English historian of the early 8th century,
Easter owes its origin to the old Teutonic mythology
<http://www.theholidayspot.com/easter/history/easter_history.htm> . It
was derived from the name Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to
whom the month of April was dedicated. The festival of Eostre was
celebrated at the vernal equinox, when the day and night gets an equal
share of the day.

 

[reubenabraham]

Veritas_et_Puritas states
"It isn't left out. Christ is the Paschal Lamb. He is the fulfilment of the Passover and all its hopes. "

I agree Christ is the Pascal(Passover )Lamb)He is the fullfillment of Passover and all hopes.

You make my point why not celebrate the Passover Lamb when The Passover Lamb Himself did? Why celebrate it based on the holidays of the pagans.?

What was Christ trying to teach us by clebrating the Passover?

Why do we not Honor Christ and do as he did before His death, burial and resurection?

 

[reubenabraham]

anawim states
"Catholics don't look at the Mass as a mini-Passover, but as the fulfillment of all of what the OT Passover was. The Mass is celebrating Passover everyday. No need for anything else"

When Catholic and Protestans take communion they are historically recreating a small part of the Passover meal. Hence I called it a mini-Passover.

The mass does not save anyone accepting Jesus Christ as a Personal Saviour and developing a relationship with the living God does save and hence we need nothing else.

The Passover does not celebrate it does however celebrate the fact that the God the Father and His Son have always been present and have always been there for us. It is the one Holy Day that God the Father and Jesus the us ask us to celebrate and remember.

The communion is only a small part of the Passover meal we need to celebrate the Full Passover
"The biblical feasts were given
to teach, in a practical way, more about the nature of G-d and his plan
for mankind. For example, Passover is rich in the symbolism of the
Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection. One of ( Jesus)Yeshua's last earthly acts was the celebration of the Passover. Gathering his disciples in a
small room in Jerusalem, he led them in the annual seder dinner. "
http://www.messianicjewish.net/aboutmj_christian.shtml#question10

 

[Hairy Tic]

anawim states
"Catholics don't look at the Mass as a mini-Passover, but as the fulfillment of all of what the OT Passover was. The Mass is celebrating Passover everyday. No need for anything else"

When Catholic and Protestans take communion they are historically recreating a small part of the Passover meal. Hence I called it a mini-Passover.

The mass does not save anyone accepting Jesus Christ as a Personal Saviour and developing a relationship with the living God does save and hence we need nothing else.

## An excellent reason to throw out the Bible - after all, the New Covenant is not a book - it is "in My Blood" (Matt. 26.26)

So Christians should not have a written NT.

Not all Christians are Jews - Gentiles shouldn't have to become Jews, in order to be or become Christians. Jesus & the Apostles were circumcised; they presumably wore fringes on the hems of their clothing (Jesus certainly did); they observed food taboos: but why should we ? Our relation is not to the Law, or to Judaism, but to Christ. St.Paul didn't expect Christians to bother keeping the Jewish feasts - he made a vow (it was while paying it that he was arrested), but he did not except others to do so. ##

The Passover does not celebrate it does however celebrate the fact that the God the Father and His Son have always been present and have always been there for us. It is the one Holy Day that God the Father and Jesus the us ask us to celebrate and remember.

The communion is only a small part of the Passover meal we need to celebrate the Full Passover
"The biblical feasts were given
to teach, in a practical way, more about the nature of G-d and his plan
for mankind. For example, Passover is rich in the symbolism of the
Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection. One of ( Jesus)Yeshua's last earthly acts was the celebration of the Passover. Gathering his disciples in a
small room in Jerusalem, he led them in the annual seder dinner. "
http://www.messianicjewish.net/aboutmj_christian.shtml#question10

## And during it, He changed its meaning, by declaring that it was "the new covenant in [His] Blood" - that is what He wanted to be repeated by His disciples. Moses had sealed the covenant by sprinkling blood - Jesus poured out His, which is "the Blood of God", & thereby brought to an end the Levitical sacrifices, being Himself a priest according to the order of Melchizedek, which was more excellent than that of Levi. He brought to an end the sacrifices ordained by the Law, being Himself the One Unique & Perfect Offering to which they looked forward & as types of which they were instituted. So when He died upon the Cross, they ceased to have any purpose. The Last Supper cannot be separated from the Cross & the Resurrection - they are organically inter-related.

Besides, the Mass "commemorates" the Cross - not the Last Supper: a small but essential detail. The Eucharist is the Sacramental Sacrifice which draws upon the Cross, by re-enacting that unique sacrifice in the form of a adaptation of the Last Supper; it's an "acted parable" which brings about the effects which it symbolises. It has too much wealth of meaning to be taken as no more than a Christian seder. ##

 

[reubenabraham]

Hairy Tic writes "## An excellent reason to throw out the Bible - after all, the New Covenant is not a book - it is "in My Blood" (Matt. 26.26)"

1- very scary- The Bible is the word of God and the foundation of the Church.

2-Yes Jesus shed his blood for us however if you go back it was during the Passover Meal. The hostorical context of the Pasover meal is very important. I believe there were four cups at the Passover Seder. Jesus used the "Third Cup the Cup of Redemption. "

"God gave us an object lesson to be observed by all those who counted themselves as being made free by His Power.But equally important was the hidden symbolism of a greater , future redemtion, which one day would free free us all those who cried out to God in their sin and despair- a redemption for all people, Jews and Gentiles to bring them into a new and eternal relationship with their Creator and with each other..." Christ in the Pasosver by Ceil & Moishe Rosen

2-Yes not all Christians ar Jews however it is the Father of Abrahms, Isaac & Jacob the God of the Jews that sent His Son to save our Unity in Christ is our unity in The Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit.
Christ did not replace the God of the Old teatament He is the God of the Old Testament and we must honor him.

3-Paul did ask us to celebrate the Passover
"Yeshua observed the biblical holidays during his earthly life. In
addition, the apostle Paul exhorted the Corinthian Christians to
celebrate the seder (1 Corinthians 5:8)." http://www.messianicjewish.net/aboutmj_christian.shtml#question10

4-Hairy Tic states
"he made a vow (it was while paying it that he was arrested), but he did not except others to do so. ##"
In 1 Corintians 11:23-25 The Lord says two times " Do this in Remeberance of Me"
The Lord expect us to do this my contention is yes we do communion which is a small part of the Pasosver celebration, My contention is that Jesus wanted us to do the whole Passover in Honor of His resurection.

 

[xristos.anesti]

"The Bible is the word of God and the foundation of the Church"

Lord is the Word of God and the Bible is the book of the Church. The Bible can not be the foundation of the Church (the foundation of the Church is the Catholic faith in Christ our Lord).
The Church is older than the Bible.


Many years.
ICXC
NIKA

 

[AMDG]

"The Bible is the word of God and the foundation of the Church"

Lord is the Word of God and the Bible is the book of the Church. The Bible can not be the foundation of the Church (the foundation of the Church is the Catholic faith in Christ our Lord).
The Church is older than the Bible.


Many years.
ICXC
NIKA

 

[FullyMT]

So my question again & you have actually helped me see it more clearly. If the resurection celebration start with Palm Sunday (Matthew 21) and continues with passion week why did the Church eliminate only Passover? Why was the Passover important to Jesus and not to the early church fathers?

Because we become PRESENT at the Passover supper...not just at a "mini-passover" as you would like to call it. The Mass has many similarities to the Passover. There is greetings, readings from Scripture are read. We pray for one another. Worship God. And share a common meal.
Jesus has become the Lamb of the Passover. We have no need for the Old Testament Passover, because we now may consume the real God, the Lamb, who saves us from our sins.

The mass does not save anyone accepting Jesus Christ as a Personal Saviour and developing a relationship with the living God does save and hence we need nothing else.

John 6 would say that the Mass does save people by us allowing Him to live in us, so that we may live in Him, and in the Father.
Receiving Holy Communion means experiencing the Living God in a very real and personal way. I can't think of anything more salvivic. Also, please remember that we are not truely "saved" until we receive our Judgement after death.

 

[hsilgne]

In 1 Corintians 11:23-25 The Lord says two times " Do this in Remeberance of Me"
The Lord expect us to do this my contention is yes we do communion which is a small part of the Pasosver celebration, My contention is that Jesus wanted us to do the whole Passover in Honor of His resurection.

The Eucharist is central to our Catholic faith, in fact, the Eucharist IS our faith. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God.

It is not "a small part of the passover celebration". It is not a symbolic gesture. Rather, the Eucharist is The Lamb of God, the Cup of the New Covenant. The Eucharist is the same sacrifice made at calvary 2000 years ago being re-presented to us. When we share the Eucharist with our brothers and sisters, we share in "communion" with each other because all who partake worthily share in the belief in the Real Presence of Christ.

Because of this sacrifice that Jesus made for us, which the Eucharist re-presents to us, we are free from the laws of the old covenant. Jesus gave authority to His Church, through the Holy Spirit, to lead us and draw us to Him, through all of the Sacraments and in particular with the Blessed Sacrament.

Peace in Christ.

 

[reubenabraham]

My response is in red= Hslgne is in black=Bible quotes in green
Hslgne stated "The Eucharist is central to our Catholic faith, in fact, the Eucharist IS our faith. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God.
I have no disagreement with the statement that it is central to the Catholic Faith

I would have to disagree that Eucharist Is our Faith. I would hope that Jesus is our Faith.

The Euchriast is symbolic of Jesus and of God the Father who through the Trinity includes Jesus and of His saving grace for the Isaraelites & us today.

It is not "a small part of the passover celebration".

It is not a symbolic gesture. Rather, the Eucharist is The Lamb of God, the Cup of the New Covenant. The Eucharist is the same sacrifice made at calvary 2000 years ago being re-presented to us. When we share the Eucharist with our brothers and sisters, we share in "communion" with each other because all who partake worthily share in the belief in the Real Presence of Christ.

I would disagree with that the communion &/or Eucharist are historically tied to the Passove meal Jesus ate before he was arrested

I offere to you Luke 22:14-19 as evidence of this.{This is why need the Passover Clebration not to do the Ordinances of old but to Remember Jesus as he directed us}
4 When the time came, Jesus and the apostles sat down together at the table.[a] 15 Jesus said, “I have been very eager to eat this Passover meal with you before my suffering begins. 16 For I tell you now that I won’t eat this meal again until its meaning is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.” 17 Then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. Then he said, “Take this and share it among yourselves. 18 For I will not drink wine again until the Kingdom of God has come.”
19 He took some bread and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this to remember me.”

Because of this sacrifice that Jesus made for us, which the Eucharist re-presents to us, we are free from the laws of the old covenant.

I agree where are free from the old Laws

Jesus gave authority to His Church, through the Holy Spirit, to lead us and draw us to Him,

I agree the Holy Spirit draws us to Him

through all of the Sacraments and in particular with the Blessed Sacrament.

Receiving the Communion or Eucharist does not save us, it is a remeberance of Jesus death burial and resurection
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
.Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. 4 He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.


Peace in Christ.

 

[reubenabraham]

FullyMT is in Black-Reubenabrahm response is red-Bible quotes in green= (Sorry for the confusion with the quoted box I am still learning some features of this site)

Because we become PRESENT at the Passover supper...not just at a "mini-passover" as you would like to call it. The Mass has many similarities to the Passover. There is greetings, readings from Scripture are read. We pray for one another. Worship God. And share a common meal.
Jesus has become the Lamb of the Passover. We have no need for the Old Testament Passover, because we now may consume the real God, the Lamb, who saves us from our sins.

Indrectly you have suppported my original premise that we should celebrate the Passover in the fact we have incorporated into the mass. So why not have Celebrate the same Passover as Jesus .


I would argue that we need to celebrate the Passover as well as the Communion & mass.

Why, beacuse Jesus made an explicit point to celebrate after Palm Sunday. If we Start with Matthew 22 The Triumphant entry {aka Palm Sunday}. After His entry & if you follow Jesus into the Temple and His telling of the Parables. He is teaching either through the Parables or by example as in the Temple. His last lesson was the Passover Meal. It is a celebration that we should not forget & do away with. It was the last thing he did before His arrest. We we start the Stations of the Cross if I am not mistaken.

Secondly Jesus did not abolish the old Law
Matthew 5:17
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


John 6 would say that the Mass does save people by us allowing Him to live in us, so that we may live in Him, and in the Father.
Receiving Holy Communion means experiencing the Living God in a very real and personal way. I can't think of anything more salvivic. Also, please remember that we are not truely "saved" until we receive our Judgement after death.

The Mass does not save,
Romans 10:9 (New King James Version)

10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[FullyMT]

FullyMT is in Black-Reubenabrahm response is red-Bible quotes in green= (Sorry for the confusion with the quoted box I am still learning some features of this site)



The Mass does not save,
Romans 10:9 (New King James Version)

10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Regarding your post before this:
The Eucharist IS Jesus, so the Eucharist therefore must be central to our Faith, because it is how we encounter Him most closely (He becomes FULLY present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity).
The Mass is the fulfillment of Passover. There is no need to celebrate the Passover memorial as per Jewish custom. Not only that, but during the Eucharistic prayer, we become present at the Last Supper Passover ceremony when Jesus said "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood"
Do you celebrate Channukah?

 

[AMDG]

10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The devil believes--knows Him from before time began--are you claiming that the devil is "saved"?

 

[reubenabraham]

xristos in black/response in red/other quotes in green

In response to xristos.anesti
You said
""The Bible is the word of God and the foundation of the Church"

Lord is the Word of God and the Bible is the book of the Church. The Bible can not be the foundation of the Church (the foundation of the Church is the Catholic faith in Christ our Lord).
The Church is older than the Bible.
{sorry I'm still not familiar in getting the right quotes in place when using that funciton.}

My Repsonse.
I agree with the first statement or quote you posted.

I would say God is the foundation of the church
Through the Trinity that includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I would disagree that the Church is older than the Bible. I would say that God is older. I would say the foundation of all Catholic and Christian religions is the Father of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. The Bible (the word of God) clearly outlines the the Lineage of Jesus
all he way back to Adam. The Catholic & Christian Faiths have not replaced Judaism they are a continuation of fullfillments of Gods Saving Grace
Luke 3:23 through 3:38 represents the lineage of Jesus from Adam to Abraham to King David's son Nathan to Salathiel and Zorobabel to Joseph.
http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterSix/LineageOfLukeAndMatthew.htm

In order to understand our Catholic & christian faith we must understan and study & see how God prepared many of us to Receive His Son. The foundation of the Church is God

 

[Davidnic]

Debate by those who are members of other congregations is not allowed in the Congregational area of a specific group . CF is a big site and can take some getting used to.

If people would like to continue debate there are areas on Christian Forums like General Theology or with reference to the Eucharist maybe Sacramental Theology where this discussion can be had without violating the rules:


1.4 Congregational Areas

You may post in any of the Congregational Forums if you agree with the contents of the Nicene Creed and the Trinitarian nature of God, but you may not argue or debate with members of particular denominations and groups in their congregational areas unless you are a member of that particular denomination or group.

Thanks

 

[AMDG]

I would disagree that the Church is older than the Bible.

Don't disagree. Historically, the Bible is a Catholic book. It is fact that the canon of the Bible was officially determined in the fourth century by Catholic councils and Catholic popes. Until that time, there was debate about which books belonged and which did not. The formal Church decision settled the matter until the Reformation--about 1100 years from the decision. Apart from the Church, we simply have no way of knowing which books belonged to the Bible. (Gee, even Martin Luther admits that Christians owe their Bible to the efforts of the Catholic Church.)

 

[reubenabraham]

I am trying to figure things out and learn and have learned alot.

Having been born to a Jewish Mother, a non-believing Catholic father. having been baptized & confirmed in a Catholic church in Ticino Switzerland I am searching for answer to many things that do not make sense I strongly believe that Jesus died for us. So I hope the next question is not taken as a debate but as one.

AMGD stated that Bible is Catholic, how do we then reconcile the Old Testament?