Oye11, simple question, why is there nothing in scriptures of Jesus Christ describing or enlightening his wereabouts from his death at the cross till his resurection?
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The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).
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"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23-43 What more would you like to know? Where do you think he was?
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Hismessenger
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There is only one aspect that has not been looked upon in this study. If the one from whom we come is an immortal eternal being, then in a truth our being is of the same essence. The difference being that we are in an altered state of His immortality to which we can be changed from but never removed from Him from whence we come. He will never forget His creation even when He alters it's state again. In this aspect we are eternal. Not of ourselves but of Him who called us forth. If a statue is made from gold, does it ever change to another metal?
Hismessenger
Hismessenger
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Read the scriptures as they give understanding... Christ was still in the grave that night and the next day and night, and on his resurection Christ himself confirmed he had not gone to heaven yet. Also when Christ died at the cross others were resurected like Lazuras and came out of the graves, why were they not in heaven, because the dead are asleep in the grave.
John 20:13-17 "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Matthew 27:50-52 "And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. "
Now to the thief on the cross, did he pass into Heaven when he died? The thief addressed Christ on the cross:
...Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42
He was looking at a future event, asking to be remembered on the day of final rewards. He was looking forward to the Second Coming. Matthew 16:28 refers to Christ “coming in His Kingdom” and in John 14:3 Christ Himself said: “I will come again.” Jesus’ reply to the thief on the cross was:
Verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43.
Was the thief in Paradise with Christ “today" on Friday afternoon or evening? The answer is no, as Christ Himself had not even ascended into Heaven by that time, as he states on Sunday morning.
Touch Me not for I am not ascended to My Father. John 20:17
If Christ had not ascended to Heaven by Sunday (resurrection morning), neither had the thief.
The reason for this confusion is to be sought in the fact that the original New Testament was written in Greek unicals which had each word running into the next without spacing or stops or verses as we now have. It was only after 1557 that verse divisions were introduced to the Biblical writings. The correct placing of the comma in Luke 23:43 is vital to our understanding of the text. Placing the comma after the "today" renders the text as follows:
Verily, I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.
Harmony then exists between this text and the statement in John 20:17 that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven. The thief merely received the promise on the day of his crucifixion that he would be in heaven when the Lord set up His Kingdom.
Several Bibles do place the comma in this position to give the correct sense. These are the Lamson Version, the Emphasized Bible, (by Joseph B. Rotheram of the disciples of Christ), and the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures The Methodist commentary by Adam Clarke also discusses the incorrect position of the comma.
John 20:13-17 "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Matthew 27:50-52 "And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. "
Now to the thief on the cross, did he pass into Heaven when he died? The thief addressed Christ on the cross:
...Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42
He was looking at a future event, asking to be remembered on the day of final rewards. He was looking forward to the Second Coming. Matthew 16:28 refers to Christ “coming in His Kingdom” and in John 14:3 Christ Himself said: “I will come again.” Jesus’ reply to the thief on the cross was:
Verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43.
Was the thief in Paradise with Christ “today" on Friday afternoon or evening? The answer is no, as Christ Himself had not even ascended into Heaven by that time, as he states on Sunday morning.
Touch Me not for I am not ascended to My Father. John 20:17
If Christ had not ascended to Heaven by Sunday (resurrection morning), neither had the thief.
The reason for this confusion is to be sought in the fact that the original New Testament was written in Greek unicals which had each word running into the next without spacing or stops or verses as we now have. It was only after 1557 that verse divisions were introduced to the Biblical writings. The correct placing of the comma in Luke 23:43 is vital to our understanding of the text. Placing the comma after the "today" renders the text as follows:
Verily, I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.
Harmony then exists between this text and the statement in John 20:17 that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven. The thief merely received the promise on the day of his crucifixion that he would be in heaven when the Lord set up His Kingdom.
Several Bibles do place the comma in this position to give the correct sense. These are the Lamson Version, the Emphasized Bible, (by Joseph B. Rotheram of the disciples of Christ), and the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures The Methodist commentary by Adam Clarke also discusses the incorrect position of the comma.
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I can google, copy and paste also, even though the first article I posted addressed your objections, but have another...
Likewise, in Luke 16:19-31 Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man. According to His story, the righteous poor Lazarus died and went immediately to "Abraham's bosom," while the wicked rich man (unnamed) died and went to Hades. In both cases, they were presented as conscious, aware, and communicative. Soul Sleep advocates sometimes argue that the story was only a parable and not to be understood literally. If that is so, then it would be the only parable Jesus ever told that could not have been at least conceivably possible in real life. Even Jesus' other parables were true to life, even if they were not actual events. So, why in this case alone would the Lord use false information to convey such a critical truth as that regarding the fate of the dead?
Another key event wherein Jesus' words contradict Soul Sleep is when He spoke to the repentant thief on the cross (see Luke 23:39-43). Following the thief's confession and appeal to Him for mercy, Jesus answered, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." This statement begs the question of the Soul Sleep position. What did Jesus mean by "today you will be with me." if the thief would have no conscious life when he died? Some have argued that translators have misrepresented the passage by placing a comma between the word "you" and "today." Their view is that since the original Greek text had no punctuation it could just as well correctly be read, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise" (a promise of the resurrection). This interpretation seems unlikely, however. Jesus used the phrase "Truly I say to you" many times as recorded in the Gospels as a validation of His divine authority. In no instance did He ever attach to it any temporal conditionality such as "today." Clearly the term "today" in the context was to be attached to the promise--that day the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise.
And another. This is easy...
I did not quote the entire story but enough to make the point. Notice that both the non-believer (the rich man) and the believer (Lazarus) went to Hades. There were two parts, hell and what the Jews called either Abraham's bosom or Paradise. Paradise was a comfortable place of peace and rest and hell was a place of torment.
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As for the parable of Lazarus and Hell (Luke 16:19-31) some try to put that the teaching of Jesus in these passages is to be taken literally. However, the language and setting are highly figurative and the story must be seen as a parable.
Virtually every scene in the story contradicts the teachings of Scriptures, and the parable was therefore intended to convey spiritual truths to the leaders of Israel. The Jewish nation had been highly favoured by God as the depository of His truth. T
hey were to serve as a light to the Gentiles, and lead the heathen nations to the only source of living water. For this reason, they had been placed at the crossroads between the great nations and trade routes of that time. Instead of fulfilling their mission, they had become bigoted and self-centered, claiming salvation only for themselves.
They were proud of their uniqueness but they had nevertheless embraced the heathen teachings regarding the afterworld, but always with the provision that their status qualified them for heaven. Jesus rebukes the hypocrisy of these views, and in the story of the rich man and Lazarus shatters the mold of this world view.
In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation which was rich in spiritual truth, and the poor man represents the Gentiles. The rich man was "dressed" with the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty) (Luke 16:19), and the means to attaining righteousness (white linen - Revelation 19:8) . The Gentile was covered in sores which represent sin (Isaiah 1:6) but no solution for his malady was offered him. Indeed, he was denied the very crumbs which feel from the spiritual table of the rich man.
Jesus shattered this mold of Jewish thinking in his dealings with the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:21-28) who also requested crumbs from the "rich man's table". In that encounter, dogs were also mentioned and serve as a further type of the Gentiles, or those not favoured by God. Even the disciples requested Jesus to send the woman away, demonstrating the extent to which the teachings of the scribes had influenced their judgment.
As the parable is told, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom". The whole of Matthew 23 laments the bigoted views of the scribes and Pharisees, and supplies the answers as to why the condition of the rich and the poor man are seemingly reversed. Moreover, the lesson is driven home to the disciples that case and status are no guarantee for salvation. The road is thus paved enabling the disciples to break with tradition and preach the gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike. Selfishness was at the root of Jewish beliefs, but God requires self to be lost and to "love thy neighbour as thyself".
The reliance on lineage was the next point addressed in the parable. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father (John 8:39) , but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man. The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29), and Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted.
It is only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ who can attain the blessings of Christ. In the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12), it is the poor in spirit, those who mourn, are meek, hunger and thirst after righteousness that can be filled and obtain mercy. In other words, one must acknowledge one's spiritual poverty, feel sorrow for one's sins, undergo a change of character with longing for the righteousness of Christ, to be filled.
Teachings based on tradition are next rebuked by Jesus. In Matthew 15:1-9, Jesus warns the scribes and the Pharisees that they nullify the Word of God by their traditions. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, no room is left for a second chance after death. A great gulf is fixed, and the rich man is denied the request to send warning to his brothers. The reason given is that they have Moses and the prophets or the Word of God. If we do not accept the teachings of Scriptures, then even a message from the dead would be useless for our salvation. Each scene of the parable, conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of literalizing the parable to support the doctrine of hell does great injustice to the intent of the story, and would negate the beautiful message it holds.
Thus, if you read your scriptures, you would see and understand that death is a state of unconscious sleep.
Virtually every scene in the story contradicts the teachings of Scriptures, and the parable was therefore intended to convey spiritual truths to the leaders of Israel. The Jewish nation had been highly favoured by God as the depository of His truth. T
hey were to serve as a light to the Gentiles, and lead the heathen nations to the only source of living water. For this reason, they had been placed at the crossroads between the great nations and trade routes of that time. Instead of fulfilling their mission, they had become bigoted and self-centered, claiming salvation only for themselves.
They were proud of their uniqueness but they had nevertheless embraced the heathen teachings regarding the afterworld, but always with the provision that their status qualified them for heaven. Jesus rebukes the hypocrisy of these views, and in the story of the rich man and Lazarus shatters the mold of this world view.
In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation which was rich in spiritual truth, and the poor man represents the Gentiles. The rich man was "dressed" with the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty) (Luke 16:19), and the means to attaining righteousness (white linen - Revelation 19:8) . The Gentile was covered in sores which represent sin (Isaiah 1:6) but no solution for his malady was offered him. Indeed, he was denied the very crumbs which feel from the spiritual table of the rich man.
Jesus shattered this mold of Jewish thinking in his dealings with the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:21-28) who also requested crumbs from the "rich man's table". In that encounter, dogs were also mentioned and serve as a further type of the Gentiles, or those not favoured by God. Even the disciples requested Jesus to send the woman away, demonstrating the extent to which the teachings of the scribes had influenced their judgment.
As the parable is told, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom". The whole of Matthew 23 laments the bigoted views of the scribes and Pharisees, and supplies the answers as to why the condition of the rich and the poor man are seemingly reversed. Moreover, the lesson is driven home to the disciples that case and status are no guarantee for salvation. The road is thus paved enabling the disciples to break with tradition and preach the gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike. Selfishness was at the root of Jewish beliefs, but God requires self to be lost and to "love thy neighbour as thyself".
The reliance on lineage was the next point addressed in the parable. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father (John 8:39) , but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man. The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29), and Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted.
It is only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ who can attain the blessings of Christ. In the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12), it is the poor in spirit, those who mourn, are meek, hunger and thirst after righteousness that can be filled and obtain mercy. In other words, one must acknowledge one's spiritual poverty, feel sorrow for one's sins, undergo a change of character with longing for the righteousness of Christ, to be filled.
Teachings based on tradition are next rebuked by Jesus. In Matthew 15:1-9, Jesus warns the scribes and the Pharisees that they nullify the Word of God by their traditions. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, no room is left for a second chance after death. A great gulf is fixed, and the rich man is denied the request to send warning to his brothers. The reason given is that they have Moses and the prophets or the Word of God. If we do not accept the teachings of Scriptures, then even a message from the dead would be useless for our salvation. Each scene of the parable, conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of literalizing the parable to support the doctrine of hell does great injustice to the intent of the story, and would negate the beautiful message it holds.
Thus, if you read your scriptures, you would see and understand that death is a state of unconscious sleep.
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There are numerous verses consistent with the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and the concept of consciousness after death. To avoid the enormous problem this parable presents, you offer a certain allogorical lesson but nowhere explain why the Lord would need to teach an erronous situation and view of life after death, a highly important matter indeed, to make such a point. And the truth is, there would be no such need.
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The explicit statements of scripture make it very clear that when man dies, he enters a sleep-like state where there is no consciousness. He will awake from that state when God calls him at the resurrection. The saints will rise to meet Him in the air, and the wicked will call for the rocks to fall on them. Later the wicked will all be raised to judgment and condemnation.
The beauty of this hope is all-surpassing. We have an opportunity to follow in Christ’s footsteps, through the grave into glory. But this message is dimmed down to nothing if we accept the un-biblical doctrine of the immortal soul. This makes the resurrection a meaningless game of Legos where God simply assembles the pieces at the end of time. The fact is that the resurrection is a miracle of marvelous proportions, and we should never diminish it by human inventions.
The scriptures are consistent on the state of the dead, and the old serpents words from the Garden of Eden are still ringing loud and some still are lured by it:
Genesis 3:4-5 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The beauty of this hope is all-surpassing. We have an opportunity to follow in Christ’s footsteps, through the grave into glory. But this message is dimmed down to nothing if we accept the un-biblical doctrine of the immortal soul. This makes the resurrection a meaningless game of Legos where God simply assembles the pieces at the end of time. The fact is that the resurrection is a miracle of marvelous proportions, and we should never diminish it by human inventions.
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 1 Cor 15:13-14
We will rise in that day. Those who sleep will awake. What a wonderful hope! Let us not demean it with cunningly devised fables (2 Pet 1:16) or doctrines of devils (1 Tim 4:1).14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 1 Cor 15:13-14
The scriptures are consistent on the state of the dead, and the old serpents words from the Garden of Eden are still ringing loud and some still are lured by it:
Genesis 3:4-5 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
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My brother, that needs careful study before you walk that road as we need are flesh and mortal till the Second Coming when the saints will be lifted up and change in the twinkling of the eye. That leads me to the everlasting lake of fire, hell, and hades. Palehorses did a good study on this because in his words "...we need to dispell the false belief of an ever-lasting hell which has turned more people away from the Bible (and Christianity) than probably any other singular topic. No one, not even me, would worship an unloving God that burned people in an ever-lasting torment for the ceaseless ages of eternity. The truth is that the Bible doesn’t teach that and that concept flies in the face of the all-loving God we know Him to be; as such, denominations that teach this concept had better rethink their position not only for the sake of Biblical accuracy but also because this pagan teaching (which is rooted firmly in ancient Greek Hellenistic teachings) is causing the massive decay of the Christian church today.
The root of the problem here is the Biblical meaning of the words “for ever”, “everlasting” and the various forms of “unquenchable”, i.e. “not be quenched”. Most people, understandably so, misunderstand the Biblical concept of these terms. In the Bible these terms sometimes do and sometimes don’t equate to our modern meaning of "forever". In today’s usage these terms mean “for the ceaseless ages of eternity” for the most part though not exclusively. For example:
A married couple: they tell each other “I’ll love you forever” but we all know that people die. What they are truly saying is “they love each other until death”, right? This is a parallel to see how even in modern times "forever" doesn’t necessarily mean the ceaseless age of eternity.
So, let’s establish what the Bible writers’ concept of forever was:
Genesis 43:9 - I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:
Genesis 44:32 - For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.
This was pre-incarnate Jesus talking to the Father in regards to man’s sin. Now, will Jesus bear the blame forever? No. (see Hebrews 9:28) The day will come when there is an end to sin. So the meaning here is clearly meant as “until it is done”.
Exodus 12:14 - And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:17 - And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 - And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
But we know that the feasts were done away with when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Exodus 12:14 is talking about the institution of the Passover; later Jesus became our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7). The key in this verse is the part that says “by an ordinance”. We know that the ordinances were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14); and there aren’t any ordinances in the 10 Commandments. So again we find that “forever” does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity as is commonly misunderstood.
Let’s get some more examples:
Exodus 19:9 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
The question here is, how can the people “believe thee for ever” if they were mere mortals? They could not, of course, unless they were saved and would get ressurected at Christ's second coming. They died and the dead know not anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The meaning here is that they would believe for as long as they lived, not the ceaseless ages of eternity. Also, the thick cloud that could be seen by day (it was a fire from the sky at night) was no longer seen after Moses’ death. So, again, “for ever” does not equate to our modern understanding of forever.
Exodus 21:6 - Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Would it be possible for a servant or master to live forever? No. Is a man still a servant to another after death? No. This clearly means that the servant would be a servant for the rest of his life and not the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Exodus 27:21 - In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
Exodus 28:43 - And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
Did the earthly tabernacle and its ceremonies last forever? No. (see Col. 2:14) Again, we find the meaning of “for ever” to mean “until it is done”.
In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out; it will not last for the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Jeremiah 17:27 - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall NOT BE QUENCHED.
We all know that Jerusalem is not still burning today; as such the fire that “shall not be quenched” means that it cannot be put out UNTIL it has done God’s purpose. No man can quench it; only God can. And God obviously did quench that fire else it would still be burning to this day.
We find in the following verses the same concept:
Isaiah 1:28-31 - And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. 29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen. 30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. 31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
The key here is the last part of the last line: “and none shall quench them.” This clearly means that no one will be able to quench the fire that burns the wicked. But just as we learned in Jeremiah 17:27 only God can quench a fire that He has started. God is consistent in His doings.
When we apply this to another example from Isaiah where he further talks of Christ’s second coming, we now understand it more clearly:
Isaiah 34:8-10 - For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance (this is when it happens – not before) , and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Now we see that “from generation to generation” means “the generations of the wicked”, i.e. generations of wicked poeple, not that the fire will last from generation to generation. The only way for that to mean otherwise would mean that people would be procreating in hell – which is an absurd notion. That would then further mean that babies born in hell would burn for no reason. That idea goes totally against what we know of God’s character, does it not? Also in this verse we find another "not be quenched" phrase which by now is clearly understood to mean "unstoppable until it has served its purpose".
Let’s look at Jonah’s example:
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars were about me FOR EVER: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
The book of Matthew says Jonah was in the belly of the whale THREE DAYS; not for ever. Here we see the same thing that “for ever” can mean a limited amount of time. Though I must say, to Jonah those 3 days must have seemed like forever. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this meant "10 generations."
These examples should be ample to illustrate that “for ever” according to Biblical teachings does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity. The same holds true for other phrases such as "not be quenched" and "everlasting". Now that we’ve firmly established the true scriptural concept involved here let’s move on to the question of hell-fire.
The root of the problem here is the Biblical meaning of the words “for ever”, “everlasting” and the various forms of “unquenchable”, i.e. “not be quenched”. Most people, understandably so, misunderstand the Biblical concept of these terms. In the Bible these terms sometimes do and sometimes don’t equate to our modern meaning of "forever". In today’s usage these terms mean “for the ceaseless ages of eternity” for the most part though not exclusively. For example:
A married couple: they tell each other “I’ll love you forever” but we all know that people die. What they are truly saying is “they love each other until death”, right? This is a parallel to see how even in modern times "forever" doesn’t necessarily mean the ceaseless age of eternity.
So, let’s establish what the Bible writers’ concept of forever was:
Genesis 43:9 - I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:
Genesis 44:32 - For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.
This was pre-incarnate Jesus talking to the Father in regards to man’s sin. Now, will Jesus bear the blame forever? No. (see Hebrews 9:28) The day will come when there is an end to sin. So the meaning here is clearly meant as “until it is done”.
Exodus 12:14 - And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:17 - And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 - And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
But we know that the feasts were done away with when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Exodus 12:14 is talking about the institution of the Passover; later Jesus became our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7). The key in this verse is the part that says “by an ordinance”. We know that the ordinances were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14); and there aren’t any ordinances in the 10 Commandments. So again we find that “forever” does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity as is commonly misunderstood.
Let’s get some more examples:
Exodus 19:9 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
The question here is, how can the people “believe thee for ever” if they were mere mortals? They could not, of course, unless they were saved and would get ressurected at Christ's second coming. They died and the dead know not anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The meaning here is that they would believe for as long as they lived, not the ceaseless ages of eternity. Also, the thick cloud that could be seen by day (it was a fire from the sky at night) was no longer seen after Moses’ death. So, again, “for ever” does not equate to our modern understanding of forever.
Exodus 21:6 - Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Would it be possible for a servant or master to live forever? No. Is a man still a servant to another after death? No. This clearly means that the servant would be a servant for the rest of his life and not the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Exodus 27:21 - In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
Exodus 28:43 - And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
Did the earthly tabernacle and its ceremonies last forever? No. (see Col. 2:14) Again, we find the meaning of “for ever” to mean “until it is done”.
In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out; it will not last for the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Jeremiah 17:27 - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall NOT BE QUENCHED.
We all know that Jerusalem is not still burning today; as such the fire that “shall not be quenched” means that it cannot be put out UNTIL it has done God’s purpose. No man can quench it; only God can. And God obviously did quench that fire else it would still be burning to this day.
We find in the following verses the same concept:
Isaiah 1:28-31 - And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. 29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen. 30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. 31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
The key here is the last part of the last line: “and none shall quench them.” This clearly means that no one will be able to quench the fire that burns the wicked. But just as we learned in Jeremiah 17:27 only God can quench a fire that He has started. God is consistent in His doings.
When we apply this to another example from Isaiah where he further talks of Christ’s second coming, we now understand it more clearly:
Isaiah 34:8-10 - For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance (this is when it happens – not before) , and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Now we see that “from generation to generation” means “the generations of the wicked”, i.e. generations of wicked poeple, not that the fire will last from generation to generation. The only way for that to mean otherwise would mean that people would be procreating in hell – which is an absurd notion. That would then further mean that babies born in hell would burn for no reason. That idea goes totally against what we know of God’s character, does it not? Also in this verse we find another "not be quenched" phrase which by now is clearly understood to mean "unstoppable until it has served its purpose".
Let’s look at Jonah’s example:
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars were about me FOR EVER: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
The book of Matthew says Jonah was in the belly of the whale THREE DAYS; not for ever. Here we see the same thing that “for ever” can mean a limited amount of time. Though I must say, to Jonah those 3 days must have seemed like forever. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this meant "10 generations."
These examples should be ample to illustrate that “for ever” according to Biblical teachings does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity. The same holds true for other phrases such as "not be quenched" and "everlasting". Now that we’ve firmly established the true scriptural concept involved here let’s move on to the question of hell-fire.
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Question: If the wicked burn in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity then wouldn’t they also have eternal life?
The wicked don’t get eternal life, the Bible doesn’t teach that:
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 5:21 - That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Proverbs 10:25 - As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
This verse is an example of everlasting actually meaning our modern usage of the word. Notice that the wicked become “no more”. If they burned in hell forever then this verse (and many others) should be removed from the Bible because they would totally contradict the concept that has been already been well established.
Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
This verse goes back to showing that “everlasting” doesn’t mean our modern usage. Notice the phrase “devouring fire”; how can a fire devour something that continues to exist? Simple – it cannot. The fire DOES devour the sinners/wicked and they are no more.
When the Bible says the wicked will burn “for ever” it does NOT necessarily mean the ceaseless ages of eternity; it simply means “until it is done/accomplished”. To say those in hell will burn forever totally uproots the following verses and many more:
Isaiah 47: 9-14 – “But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.”
Quick note - stubble burns fairly quickly.
Malachi 4:1-3 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a “eternally burning” hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is not eternal life while burning in an eternal hell; the wages of sin is death. Hell-fire is the means used to bring about that death.
Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 112:10 - The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time – that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is US that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us.
Psalm 104:35 - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Aha, the wicked will become “no more”; a verse that says it plainly.
Ezekiel 28:18, 19 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Another verse that says it plainly; they (the wicked) will be no more. They can’t be burning forever AND be “no more” at the same time. Obviously it is the result that will be eternal and forever.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." --Jude 1 : 7 KJV
If we were supposed to take "eternal fire" as meaning it would be on fire burning forever then those cities would still be burning today; they are not of course. This means that the results of the fire is eternal; those cities have never been rebuilt and will never be.
How does this all come together?
The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble:
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Conclusion:
Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term “for ever” or “not be quenched” or “unquenchable” can also mean “until it is done/accomplished” and not always the “ceaseless ages of eternity” as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconcieved notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches – it’s just that simple.
The wicked don’t get eternal life, the Bible doesn’t teach that:
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 5:21 - That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Proverbs 10:25 - As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
This verse is an example of everlasting actually meaning our modern usage of the word. Notice that the wicked become “no more”. If they burned in hell forever then this verse (and many others) should be removed from the Bible because they would totally contradict the concept that has been already been well established.
Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
This verse goes back to showing that “everlasting” doesn’t mean our modern usage. Notice the phrase “devouring fire”; how can a fire devour something that continues to exist? Simple – it cannot. The fire DOES devour the sinners/wicked and they are no more.
When the Bible says the wicked will burn “for ever” it does NOT necessarily mean the ceaseless ages of eternity; it simply means “until it is done/accomplished”. To say those in hell will burn forever totally uproots the following verses and many more:
Isaiah 47: 9-14 – “But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.”
Quick note - stubble burns fairly quickly.
Malachi 4:1-3 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a “eternally burning” hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is not eternal life while burning in an eternal hell; the wages of sin is death. Hell-fire is the means used to bring about that death.
Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 112:10 - The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time – that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is US that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us.
Psalm 104:35 - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Aha, the wicked will become “no more”; a verse that says it plainly.
Ezekiel 28:18, 19 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Another verse that says it plainly; they (the wicked) will be no more. They can’t be burning forever AND be “no more” at the same time. Obviously it is the result that will be eternal and forever.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." --Jude 1 : 7 KJV
If we were supposed to take "eternal fire" as meaning it would be on fire burning forever then those cities would still be burning today; they are not of course. This means that the results of the fire is eternal; those cities have never been rebuilt and will never be.
How does this all come together?
The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble:
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Conclusion:
Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term “for ever” or “not be quenched” or “unquenchable” can also mean “until it is done/accomplished” and not always the “ceaseless ages of eternity” as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconcieved notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches – it’s just that simple.
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Eila
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2 Corinthians 5 says
"1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."
If one ceases to exist when they die how can they be present with the Lord?
Philippians 1 says "21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."
Paul gives two choices depart and be with Christ or remain in the flesh.
Apparently Jesus' disciples did not know about soul sleep because they believed in ghosts.
Matthew 14:26-27 "26And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified and said, It is a ghost! And they screamed out with fright. 27But instantly He spoke to them, saying, Take courage! I AM! Stop being afraid!"
The disciples had no problem with the idea of a ghost.
You can see that here too:
Mark 6 "39But when they saw Him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and raised a [deep, throaty] shriek of terror. 50For they all saw Him and were agitated (troubled and filled with fear and dread). But immediately He talked with them and said, Take heart! I AM! Stop being alarmed and afraid."
Once again the disciples after Jesus' entire ministry the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost once again in Luke 24
"36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, Peace to you. 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, Have you any food here? 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.43 And He took it and ate in their presence."
The disciples believed that a spirit could be seen. They did not have the knowledge that a spirit was breath.
If soul sleep was what Jesus believed surely His disciples would have caught on by the end of His ministry.
"1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."
If one ceases to exist when they die how can they be present with the Lord?
Philippians 1 says "21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."
Paul gives two choices depart and be with Christ or remain in the flesh.
Apparently Jesus' disciples did not know about soul sleep because they believed in ghosts.
Matthew 14:26-27 "26And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified and said, It is a ghost! And they screamed out with fright. 27But instantly He spoke to them, saying, Take courage! I AM! Stop being afraid!"
The disciples had no problem with the idea of a ghost.
You can see that here too:
Mark 6 "39But when they saw Him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and raised a [deep, throaty] shriek of terror. 50For they all saw Him and were agitated (troubled and filled with fear and dread). But immediately He talked with them and said, Take heart! I AM! Stop being alarmed and afraid."
Once again the disciples after Jesus' entire ministry the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost once again in Luke 24
"36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, Peace to you. 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, Have you any food here? 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.43 And He took it and ate in their presence."
The disciples believed that a spirit could be seen. They did not have the knowledge that a spirit was breath.
If soul sleep was what Jesus believed surely His disciples would have caught on by the end of His ministry.
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The original definition of the old english word 'hell', when it was translated has changed from what it was then, to what is commonly taught today.
God has sent His Son to 'save' sinners from the penalties of sin, which the bible clearly teaches is death. That is why faith is very important with the resurrection. It is our hope.
Don't we all who follow Christ experience a kind of death, before we physically die? This death is clearly taught in the NT, this is why the 'second death' has no power over us. It's not a different death, it's just that we have already gone through it. God is no respector of persons. The process of salvation is equal.
Peace.
God has sent His Son to 'save' sinners from the penalties of sin, which the bible clearly teaches is death. That is why faith is very important with the resurrection. It is our hope.
Don't we all who follow Christ experience a kind of death, before we physically die? This death is clearly taught in the NT, this is why the 'second death' has no power over us. It's not a different death, it's just that we have already gone through it. God is no respector of persons. The process of salvation is equal.
Peace.
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The Testimony of Peter
We now visit the sermon Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, immediately after the anointing with the Holy Spirit. In it, Peter explicitly talks about the state of the dead. (I quote the KJV because it properly translates the Greek of this passage.)
Just to cover all the bases, we should note that this sermon was ten days after Jesus ascended the final time to heaven. Those who would have us believe that all the saints were held in Limbo until the cross have a problem. David was a man after God’s own heart (1 Sam 13:14), and fifty days after the cross, ten days after the ascension, he is still in his grave. Either Peter is wrong and the statements about David (prophet, type of Christ, man after God’s own heart, etc.) are wrong, or David did not have an immortal soul. Since either of the first two choices requires that the Bible be false, it is obvious that the only true choice is that David remains asleep in the grave.
The Testimony of Paul
Paul gives us two passages where he refers to the state of the dead at length: 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
A couple of other points are worth noting. If Paul believed in the blissful condition of the dead with Christ, here was a perfect chance to tell the living why they should not grieve over their dead. The fact that he does not do so adds strength to our conclusion that the dead are sleeping, not in heaven. Also, the fact that the living saints meet Christ at the same time as the resurrected saints strongly indicates that the dead have not yet met Christ.
A Second Excursus on Skeptics
There are three major passages which skeptics point to to try to turn the scriptures to their favor. As we examine them, we must remember that if a passage seems to contradict a plain statement, we must use the plain statement to explain the less plain. In other words, we cannot overrule the explicit statements which deny the existence of a disembodied "soul" just to suit a desired conclusion. With this in mind, let us consider two statements by Paul and one by Christ.
The first is the text we just quoted from 1 Thessalonians. In it, the English says that "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." By "bring with Him", many say that it means that they come from heaven. However, this cannot be true, because since the dead awake to the shout, then rise to meet God in the air. There is no hint of "souls" joining bodies in this passage. Also, the Greek verb "ago" translated "bring" is better translated "lead". This paints a picture of all the saints being led up into heaven, and is consistent with what we have found already. Paul’s emphasis here is that those who have died will not be left behind.
The answer to the dilemma is to accept the plain meaning of plain scripture, and apply it to this text. Logically, from what Paul says, it is impossible to be with God while in this body (Remember 1 Cor 15, and Paul’s discussion of spiritual and fleshly bodies). Therefore, if one is with Christ, he is not in this body; and if one is in this body, he is not with Christ. Since the final objective of all Christians is to be with Christ, it is obviously more desirable to leave this body behind and be with Christ. But what this text does not do is say that at the moment of death, your "soul" leaves the body to be with Christ. This would have Paul contradicting himself. What he is stating is a final objective. He is not making any statement as to the time course of the events.
According to the Scriptures, all living creatures received life in the same way from God, and are subject to the same fate.
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field . . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 2:19; 7:15
Both man and beast
...have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above the beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19
Since man and beast have one breath, they also die the same way.
For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.
Both man and animals were created from dust. So, when they die they then return again to dust; just the reverse of creation.
...for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19
The second thing which happens when a man dies, is that the spirit, or breath of life, returns to God;
...and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7
Man was never meant to die, but death came into the world as a consequence of sin.
For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
As death is non-life, it merely means that God takes the life ("rûach" spirit, breath) that He granted on condition of obedience back and man ceases to live. It is the life that was given that returns to God, and not a transformed version of man in the form a spirit being. When God said that man would "surely die" (Genesis 2:17) if he transgressed God's requirements, He meant that man would cease to live, and would return to dust.
Far from being a conscious state, death is thus the ultimate state of non-being or unconsciousness, and is described as such in the Scriptures.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
We know that many fallen angels came to earth and with the devil roam to see who they can decieve and these demons are spirits.
Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Matthew 8:16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
So since the dead are in their graves asleep it is clear then the spirits that are called up by mediums or channels are not the spirits of the dead, then they must be spirits of demons who would deceive man and rob him of salvation. God admonishes through the prophet Isaiah:
And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter, should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19 NKJV
Rememeber Saul's Encounter with the "spirit" of Samuel, (1 Samuel 28:3-25) where Saul consults the medium at En Dor who supposedly calls up Samuel to advise the King. The King had been troubled by spirits himself, and had through his own actions severed his connection with God. (Verse 25) Saul, however, remembered that Samuel's predictions regarding his life had all been fulfilled. In his panic, he asked for Samuel to advise him. In verse 14 he asks the medium "what form is he of?" indicating that he did not see Samuel himself. Moreover, the spirit taunted Saul by telling him that his crown would go to his rival. The messages of the spirit did not require visionary powers. David had already been anointed, and Israel had not humbled itself before the Lord, making it more than likely that they would be defeated by the Philistines. As the dead are in a state of unconsciousness, it is evident that the spirit of Samuel did not communicate with Saul. According to the Scriptures, Satan can communicate with man and present himself as an angel of light. (Matthew 4:1-11; 2 Corinthians 11:13)
Whenever God has worked with power to call people back to Him, Satan has counterfeited the message with miracle-working power.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 NKJV
We now visit the sermon Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, immediately after the anointing with the Holy Spirit. In it, Peter explicitly talks about the state of the dead. (I quote the KJV because it properly translates the Greek of this passage.)
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:… Acts 2:29, 34a KJV
Notice what Peter says about David. He is (present tense) dead and buried. He is not (present tense) ascended into the heavens. In other words, when the writer of 1 Kings says that "David slept with his fathers" (1 Ki 2:10), he meant it! By the time Peter preached this sermon, David had had a few hundred years to make the journey to heaven, if that was the nature of death. But Peter flatly says that David is still in his grave. In other words, David did not have an immortal soul which went to heaven on his death. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:… Acts 2:29, 34a KJV
Just to cover all the bases, we should note that this sermon was ten days after Jesus ascended the final time to heaven. Those who would have us believe that all the saints were held in Limbo until the cross have a problem. David was a man after God’s own heart (1 Sam 13:14), and fifty days after the cross, ten days after the ascension, he is still in his grave. Either Peter is wrong and the statements about David (prophet, type of Christ, man after God’s own heart, etc.) are wrong, or David did not have an immortal soul. Since either of the first two choices requires that the Bible be false, it is obvious that the only true choice is that David remains asleep in the grave.
The Testimony of Paul
Paul gives us two passages where he refers to the state of the dead at length: 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:13-17
In this passage, Paul makes several statements. First, he is using "sleep" to describe a condition where others grieve. This cannot be natural sleep. Then he tells us that the living will be second in line to the "sleepers" when Christ comes. After he introduces the second coming, he revisits what he just said, and says that the first in line are "the dead". He makes it clear by this exposition that he regards death as a sleep, just as we have explored earlier. In 1 Cor 15, Paul uses "egiero" nineteen times to describe the resurrection. As we studied earlier, this verb means to wake up from sleep. There can be no doubt that Paul regarded death as a sleep.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:13-17
A couple of other points are worth noting. If Paul believed in the blissful condition of the dead with Christ, here was a perfect chance to tell the living why they should not grieve over their dead. The fact that he does not do so adds strength to our conclusion that the dead are sleeping, not in heaven. Also, the fact that the living saints meet Christ at the same time as the resurrected saints strongly indicates that the dead have not yet met Christ.
A Second Excursus on Skeptics
There are three major passages which skeptics point to to try to turn the scriptures to their favor. As we examine them, we must remember that if a passage seems to contradict a plain statement, we must use the plain statement to explain the less plain. In other words, we cannot overrule the explicit statements which deny the existence of a disembodied "soul" just to suit a desired conclusion. With this in mind, let us consider two statements by Paul and one by Christ.
The first is the text we just quoted from 1 Thessalonians. In it, the English says that "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." By "bring with Him", many say that it means that they come from heaven. However, this cannot be true, because since the dead awake to the shout, then rise to meet God in the air. There is no hint of "souls" joining bodies in this passage. Also, the Greek verb "ago" translated "bring" is better translated "lead". This paints a picture of all the saints being led up into heaven, and is consistent with what we have found already. Paul’s emphasis here is that those who have died will not be left behind.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8
In this passage, Paul seems to be saying that if you are absent from the body (i.e. dead) then you are with God. Many Christians, Protestant and Catholic alike, interpret this text this way. Unfortunately, to take it this way, it is necessary to deny everything we have studied so far. Since a number of the texts we have explored have been explicit about the fact that there is no "soul" which goes to heaven at death (remember Peter’s sermon?) this understanding must be wrong.7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8
The answer to the dilemma is to accept the plain meaning of plain scripture, and apply it to this text. Logically, from what Paul says, it is impossible to be with God while in this body (Remember 1 Cor 15, and Paul’s discussion of spiritual and fleshly bodies). Therefore, if one is with Christ, he is not in this body; and if one is in this body, he is not with Christ. Since the final objective of all Christians is to be with Christ, it is obviously more desirable to leave this body behind and be with Christ. But what this text does not do is say that at the moment of death, your "soul" leaves the body to be with Christ. This would have Paul contradicting himself. What he is stating is a final objective. He is not making any statement as to the time course of the events.
According to the Scriptures, all living creatures received life in the same way from God, and are subject to the same fate.
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field . . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 2:19; 7:15
Both man and beast
...have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above the beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19
Since man and beast have one breath, they also die the same way.
For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.
Both man and animals were created from dust. So, when they die they then return again to dust; just the reverse of creation.
...for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19
The second thing which happens when a man dies, is that the spirit, or breath of life, returns to God;
...and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7
Man was never meant to die, but death came into the world as a consequence of sin.
For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
As death is non-life, it merely means that God takes the life ("rûach" spirit, breath) that He granted on condition of obedience back and man ceases to live. It is the life that was given that returns to God, and not a transformed version of man in the form a spirit being. When God said that man would "surely die" (Genesis 2:17) if he transgressed God's requirements, He meant that man would cease to live, and would return to dust.
Far from being a conscious state, death is thus the ultimate state of non-being or unconsciousness, and is described as such in the Scriptures.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
We know that many fallen angels came to earth and with the devil roam to see who they can decieve and these demons are spirits.
Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Matthew 8:16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
So since the dead are in their graves asleep it is clear then the spirits that are called up by mediums or channels are not the spirits of the dead, then they must be spirits of demons who would deceive man and rob him of salvation. God admonishes through the prophet Isaiah:
And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter, should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19 NKJV
Rememeber Saul's Encounter with the "spirit" of Samuel, (1 Samuel 28:3-25) where Saul consults the medium at En Dor who supposedly calls up Samuel to advise the King. The King had been troubled by spirits himself, and had through his own actions severed his connection with God. (Verse 25) Saul, however, remembered that Samuel's predictions regarding his life had all been fulfilled. In his panic, he asked for Samuel to advise him. In verse 14 he asks the medium "what form is he of?" indicating that he did not see Samuel himself. Moreover, the spirit taunted Saul by telling him that his crown would go to his rival. The messages of the spirit did not require visionary powers. David had already been anointed, and Israel had not humbled itself before the Lord, making it more than likely that they would be defeated by the Philistines. As the dead are in a state of unconsciousness, it is evident that the spirit of Samuel did not communicate with Saul. According to the Scriptures, Satan can communicate with man and present himself as an angel of light. (Matthew 4:1-11; 2 Corinthians 11:13)
Whenever God has worked with power to call people back to Him, Satan has counterfeited the message with miracle-working power.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 NKJV
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The state of the dead may be the most misunderstood subject in the world today. To many it is enshrouded in mystery and evokes feelings of fear, uncertainty, and even leads them into spiritalism.
Others believe their loved ones who have died are not dead at all, but instead live in other places under varied conditions and are being tortured or need money to be let out and go somewhere else. Many false teachings abound, and many are nothing but ancients releigions pagan worship of the dead.
The Bible says that people who misunderstand the subject of death will almost assuredly be deceived by the Devil in the last days before Jesus second coming.
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:14
There is no room for guessing on this topic. You owe it to yourself to investigate the truth and not pagan myths and false teachings and discover what the Bible says really happens when a person dies and know the truth about death.
Many objections are raised by advocates of dualism (separate soul and body) to the idea of soul sleep. This survey will briefly cover the major texts used to support dualism, with a proper understanding of those texts explored so that the truth of the Bible will become clear.
1. "If I am in my mortal body, I am absent from God, and if I am absent from this body, I am present with God." Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:6-8
The dualist will argue that the second half of the statement clearly states that as soon as Paul dies he will be with Christ. But since Paul realized that his body was an integral part of him, and that he had no existence separate from his body (cf. Gen 2:7), he did not believe that "he" would separate from his body at death. Rather, as Paul discusses in 1 Cor 15:35-58, at the resurrection the just will be raised in an "imperishable body" (vv. 52-54). Until then, Paul will not be absent from his perishable body, for he will cease to exist until called forth by the voice of the savior.
2. "God is the God of the living, not God of the dead." (Matt 22:32, Mark 12:26, Luke 20:37-38)
In the dualistic view, on death, our "soul" ascends to heaven to be with Christ. The Roman Catholic Church describes this as the "beatific vision." The souls of the dead are thus in direct communion with the Lord. This would mean that God is the God of the dead, in direct contradiction to Jesus' statement. But Luke records that "all (men) live to Him." Doesn't this mean that your soul lives on after your death?
Verse 37 states that "the dead are raised." If we accept the simple present tense of this passage, that would say that the resurrection has already occurred. But the entire NT speaks to the resurrection as being future, so that cannot be what Jesus is saying. The alternate way to see the statement is that Jesus is stating the certainty of the resurrection by using "prophetic perfect tense." God is therefore the God of the resurrection (the living), not the God of the grave (the dead).
We should also remember that God lives outside of time, since He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (1 Chr 16:36, Ps 41:13; 90:2, etc.) God created everything, including time (John 1:3). He tells the end from the beginning (Is 46:10, Rev 22:13.) Therefore, God sees all time in the same way we see "now." He can see all men as alive, by looking at them when they were alive. In this way, all men are alive in God's eyes, even though they may be dead to men, since men live within time.
We can see that, far from supporting the life of the "soul" after death, these passages contradict it.
3. "Man's breath goes to heaven, while the breath of animals goes to the earth. Breath is a figurative way of describing the 'soul.'" (Eccl 3:21)
Next, we may note that Solomon describes the breath of man and of animals with the same word: ruach. He clearly talks of man and animals having the same breath (not soul) in verse 19. If the breath of a man is his soul, then the breath of the animal is its soul, and no theologian of which I am aware speaks of animals having souls. Then he tells us that men and animals "return to the dust." There is no hint of a separate body and soul in this. Solomon describes man in the same way as animals: as a unitary whole.
Verse 21 then appears as a rhetorical question. Having identified the fates of man and animals as being identical, Solomon asks "Who knows?" about any difference in their final fates. Since there is no difference, the answer is obvious: "No one." In other words, it doesn't happen. Verse 21 is directly answered in verse 22, when Solomon rhetorically points out that no one will see what happens after his own death. This clearly denies an immortal soul which ascends to God at death. We can also look to Psalm 104:10, where God is clearly stated as the source of breath for animals, so their breath would figuratively ascend like man's.
4. "Man's spirit (soul) returns to God at death." (Eccl 12:7, Acts 7:59-60, James 2:26, Eccl 3:22)
Eccl 3:22 has been answered above.
5. There are different levels in Sheol. (Deut 32:22)
6. When you go to the grave, you go to be with your ancestors who are aware. (Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33, Num 20:24-28; 31:2)
7. We live with Christ while asleep (dead). 1 Thess 5:9-10
Others believe their loved ones who have died are not dead at all, but instead live in other places under varied conditions and are being tortured or need money to be let out and go somewhere else. Many false teachings abound, and many are nothing but ancients releigions pagan worship of the dead.
The Bible says that people who misunderstand the subject of death will almost assuredly be deceived by the Devil in the last days before Jesus second coming.
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:14
There is no room for guessing on this topic. You owe it to yourself to investigate the truth and not pagan myths and false teachings and discover what the Bible says really happens when a person dies and know the truth about death.
Many objections are raised by advocates of dualism (separate soul and body) to the idea of soul sleep. This survey will briefly cover the major texts used to support dualism, with a proper understanding of those texts explored so that the truth of the Bible will become clear.
1. "If I am in my mortal body, I am absent from God, and if I am absent from this body, I am present with God." Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:6-8
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8 (Phil 1:23 has similar content.)
This text itself shows that the logic in the premise is flawed. Those who suggest that this supports dualism forget that all Paul is saying is that if he is here he is not there, and if he is there he is not here. He says nothing about the "in-between" situation. It can be an immediate transition or centuries of soul sleep without affecting the statements. As for Paul, since he will sleep between death and the resurrection, he will be unaware of the passage of time, and the resurrection will seem to be instantaneous upon death.7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8 (Phil 1:23 has similar content.)
The dualist will argue that the second half of the statement clearly states that as soon as Paul dies he will be with Christ. But since Paul realized that his body was an integral part of him, and that he had no existence separate from his body (cf. Gen 2:7), he did not believe that "he" would separate from his body at death. Rather, as Paul discusses in 1 Cor 15:35-58, at the resurrection the just will be raised in an "imperishable body" (vv. 52-54). Until then, Paul will not be absent from his perishable body, for he will cease to exist until called forth by the voice of the savior.
2. "God is the God of the living, not God of the dead." (Matt 22:32, Mark 12:26, Luke 20:37-38)
37 "But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 "Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him." (Luke 20:37-38)
This passage includes the most difficult appearing form of the three parallel accounts. However, as we examine this carefully, we will find that it actually allows us to properly illustrate the intent of Jesus' statement.38 "Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him." (Luke 20:37-38)
In the dualistic view, on death, our "soul" ascends to heaven to be with Christ. The Roman Catholic Church describes this as the "beatific vision." The souls of the dead are thus in direct communion with the Lord. This would mean that God is the God of the dead, in direct contradiction to Jesus' statement. But Luke records that "all (men) live to Him." Doesn't this mean that your soul lives on after your death?
Verse 37 states that "the dead are raised." If we accept the simple present tense of this passage, that would say that the resurrection has already occurred. But the entire NT speaks to the resurrection as being future, so that cannot be what Jesus is saying. The alternate way to see the statement is that Jesus is stating the certainty of the resurrection by using "prophetic perfect tense." God is therefore the God of the resurrection (the living), not the God of the grave (the dead).
We should also remember that God lives outside of time, since He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (1 Chr 16:36, Ps 41:13; 90:2, etc.) God created everything, including time (John 1:3). He tells the end from the beginning (Is 46:10, Rev 22:13.) Therefore, God sees all time in the same way we see "now." He can see all men as alive, by looking at them when they were alive. In this way, all men are alive in God's eyes, even though they may be dead to men, since men live within time.
We can see that, far from supporting the life of the "soul" after death, these passages contradict it.
3. "Man's breath goes to heaven, while the breath of animals goes to the earth. Breath is a figurative way of describing the 'soul.'" (Eccl 3:21)
19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
22 And I have seen that nothing is better than that man should be happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him? (Eccl 3:18-22)
Our first task is to review the Hebrew for "breath" and "soul". These words are "ruach" and "nephesh," and are not used synonymously. Thus, the first assertion regarding the presence of the "soul" in this passage is incorrect.20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
22 And I have seen that nothing is better than that man should be happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him? (Eccl 3:18-22)
Next, we may note that Solomon describes the breath of man and of animals with the same word: ruach. He clearly talks of man and animals having the same breath (not soul) in verse 19. If the breath of a man is his soul, then the breath of the animal is its soul, and no theologian of which I am aware speaks of animals having souls. Then he tells us that men and animals "return to the dust." There is no hint of a separate body and soul in this. Solomon describes man in the same way as animals: as a unitary whole.
Verse 21 then appears as a rhetorical question. Having identified the fates of man and animals as being identical, Solomon asks "Who knows?" about any difference in their final fates. Since there is no difference, the answer is obvious: "No one." In other words, it doesn't happen. Verse 21 is directly answered in verse 22, when Solomon rhetorically points out that no one will see what happens after his own death. This clearly denies an immortal soul which ascends to God at death. We can also look to Psalm 104:10, where God is clearly stated as the source of breath for animals, so their breath would figuratively ascend like man's.
4. "Man's spirit (soul) returns to God at death." (Eccl 12:7, Acts 7:59-60, James 2:26, Eccl 3:22)
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Eccl 12:7)
This text is a clear allusion to Genesis 2:7 where God blew into Adam's nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul and 3:19, where Adam is told he will return to the dust. It also echoes Eccl 3:20 reviewed above. The word translated "spirit" is "ruach," the Hebrew word for breath. All Solomon is saying is that God gives us breath, and when we die, the breath of life figuratively returns to God. It says nothing about an immortal soul.59 And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
60 And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:59-60)
Having seen the proper meaning of "spirit" in Ecclesiastes, we can see its application in the story of Stephen. Stephen is making the same reference here by asking Jesus to receive his breath. The Greek word "pneuma" is the equivalent of the Hebrew "ruach." We can further note that Stephen did not ascend to heaven, he "fell asleep." This is the consistent Biblical description of death. It describes a state of unconsciousness from which one can be awakened by the call of God.60 And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:59-60)
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)
This text has a word in it that is not in the Greek. The phrase is "without spirit" not "without THE spirit." Since "spirit" is equivalent to "breath", James is saying that the body without breath is dead to set up his statement about faith without works.
Eccl 3:22 has been answered above.
5. There are different levels in Sheol. (Deut 32:22)
22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.
This text is merely an emphatic description of God's anger. It is a natural description since Sheol is described as being under the ground. (Job 11:8, Isa 44:23, Ezek 26:20, Amos 9:2) This is again a natural description since when a person died, he was buried under the ground in a grave in Jewish society.
6. When you go to the grave, you go to be with your ancestors who are aware. (Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33, Num 20:24-28; 31:2)
8 And Abraham breathed his last and died in a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life; and he was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8)
This expression is used repeatedly in the OT. It is literally true in the sense that Abraham's ancestors are all dead and in the grave (Sheol) where Abraham was placed. But advocates of the immortality of the soul would like us to believe that it means that Abraham joined an assembly of living "souls" in an intermediate place between death and heaven. This would require that those souls be aware in contradiction to Eccl 9:10, etc. However, we can take "gathering to his people" as a figure of speech, and in this way it can be seen to agree with the frequent (>30 times) usage of the expression "so and so slept with his fathers." In this way it offers no support to the idea of awareness after death.7. We live with Christ while asleep (dead). 1 Thess 5:9-10
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
While it is possible to take this text in isolation to say that we live with Christ while dead, the key to note is that this is not required. Paul talks of the destiny of God's people, just after talking about how the dead will be raised to join Christ in the verses just before (1 Thess 4:13-17). This passage is one of the strongest statements that the dead are sleeping, and therefore unaware. So Paul would be contradicting himself if he were to say what dualists suggest. In fact, Paul is saying that the ultimate destiny of the saints, whether alive or dead, is to be with God rather than punishment. He is saying nothing about the fate of a person at death.10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
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Eila
Senior Veteran
John 3 says "1NOW THERE was a certain man among the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler (a leader, an authority) among the Jews, 2Who came to Jesus at night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know and are certain that You have come from God [as] a Teacher; for no one can do these signs (these wonderworks, these miracles--and produce the proofs) that You do unless God is with him.
3Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?
5Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.
6What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Reddogs, did Christ give you new breath when you were born again? What part of you was reborn if not your breath?
1 Peter 1 says "23You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.
24For all flesh (mankind) is like grass, and all its glory (honor) like [the] flower of grass. The grass withers and the flower drops off,
25But the Word of the Lord (divine instruction, the Gospel) endures forever. And this Word is the good news which was preached to you."
1 Peter describes this born again as nothing to do with our mortal bodies. We were born again in our immortal spirit.
I totally understand your works related posts on another thread because you don't understand that your spirit has been regenerated. No wonder you think you have to keep the law and do everything perfectly to make it to heaven.
3Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?
5Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.
6What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Reddogs, did Christ give you new breath when you were born again? What part of you was reborn if not your breath?
1 Peter 1 says "23You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.
24For all flesh (mankind) is like grass, and all its glory (honor) like [the] flower of grass. The grass withers and the flower drops off,
25But the Word of the Lord (divine instruction, the Gospel) endures forever. And this Word is the good news which was preached to you."
1 Peter describes this born again as nothing to do with our mortal bodies. We were born again in our immortal spirit.
I totally understand your works related posts on another thread because you don't understand that your spirit has been regenerated. No wonder you think you have to keep the law and do everything perfectly to make it to heaven.
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You must be changed from the corrupt to the incorruptible, from mortal flesh to immortal and Christ gives it to us at his coming.
This is where faith comes in, until the second coming we are flesh, but the faithful that are taken up to be with Christ are changed "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye". Christ has come to give us the life of imortallity by giving us eternal life, but we cannot transform ourselves to a spirit (that is salvation by works), pinch yourself and you will see you are flesh.
John 17:1-2
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
2 Corinthians 4:11
For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body.
1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Revelation 22:12-14
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts (i.e.mediums or worhipers of the dead), the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
At the second coming, those asleep in the grave who are saved in Jesus Christ will be ressurected, and they will be taken to heaven with him, read the scriptures and gain understanding:
1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. The Resurrection of the Dead
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d] 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. The Resurrection Body
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
This is where faith comes in, until the second coming we are flesh, but the faithful that are taken up to be with Christ are changed "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye". Christ has come to give us the life of imortallity by giving us eternal life, but we cannot transform ourselves to a spirit (that is salvation by works), pinch yourself and you will see you are flesh.
John 17:1-2
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
2 Corinthians 4:11
For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body.
1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Revelation 22:12-14
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts (i.e.mediums or worhipers of the dead), the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
At the second coming, those asleep in the grave who are saved in Jesus Christ will be ressurected, and they will be taken to heaven with him, read the scriptures and gain understanding:
1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. The Resurrection of the Dead
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d] 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. The Resurrection Body
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
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Eila
Senior Veteran
How can anyone transform themselves into a spirit? Yes, I have a fleshy body. Our body is only a tent or a dwelling place. Our body is not who we are. After someone dies you can still pinch them.
The Bible says that God forms the spirit in a man.
Zechariah 12:1 says "THE BURDEN or oracle (the thing to be lifted up) of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus says the Lord, Who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him:" Who forms the spirit of a man? The Lord
Isaiah 26:9 says "9My soul yearns for You [O Lord] in the night, yes, my spirit within me seeks You earnestly; for [only] when Your judgments are in the earth will the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness (uprightness and right standing with God)."
Can breath seek God?
2 Corinthians 2:11 says "11For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
The spirit in a man is capable of thought.
Mark 2:8 says " 8And at once Jesus, becoming fully aware in His spirit that they thus debated within themselves, said to them, Why do you argue (debate, reason) about all this in your hearts?"
Jesus was able to perceive in His spirit.
Romans 8 says " 16The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God."
The Bible clearly states here that we have a spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5 says "23And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you through and through [separate you from profane things, make you pure and wholly consecrated to God]; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved sound and complete [and found] blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)."
Is Paul talking about the preservation of our breath?
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The essence of what you are calling a spirit here is the mind. Which by the way is basically an undefined intangible entity. This mind or intellectual existence will die when the body does. Remember the defintion of a soul given to us in Genesis. Man became a living soul after the breath of life was intimately breathed into his nostrils. Man is a soul man does not possess a soul.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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