Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

[IamAdopted]

And how much more compassion can Jesus give than giving His own life for us that we may be saved?

 

[phoenixgw]

Thanks for the misery of reliving the past struggles of the catholic (universal) church all--much obliged! At least no one was burned at the stake in the making of this thread for their alleged heresies.

The "deification" of Mary was originally implemented as a stopgap measure to those who would challenge the assertion that Jesus, our Lord & Saviour, was anything less than divine. On this thread, we seem to have moved past that point (I hope) & moved on to the question of whether Mary was anything less than divine. And what of Mary's parents--were they divine too?

Josiah's question regarding "praying to Mary" was addressed a number of times. Catholics who took the time to answer said that they were asking Mary to petition in prayer on their behalf, which seems to be different than praying to Mary as they would to our heavenly Father. It's the word "prayer" that has people going "ape."

You received your answer a number of times Josiah. Maybe you should type "Sister Charlotte" into your web browser to see what kind of people you are dealing with. The Roman Catholic Church has taken extreme measures to deal with heresy over the centuries.

I would point out, to all who care to listen, that no prayers would be heard in Heaven if Jesus did not become our High Priest to intercede on our behalf. Without Jesus, no prayers would be heard--not by Mary, not by anyone. Thankfully, no one here yet has called Mary the High Priestess who intercedes on our behalf. That would be more than heresy--it would be blasphemy.

You folks can keep adding timber to the fire. As for me, I'll be moving along now, never to return to this thread again. These "How many angels can fit on the head of a pin" arguments get to be tedious after a while.

To pray is a privilege; to have our prayers answered is the blessing.

 

[ScottBot]

Thanks for the misery of reliving the past struggles of the catholic (universal) church all--much obliged! At least no one was burned at the stake in the making of this thread for their alleged heresies.

The "deification" of Mary was originally implemented as a stopgap measure to those who would challenge the assertion that Jesus, our Lord & Saviour, was anything less than divine. On this thread, we seem to have moved past that point (I hope) & moved on to the question of whether Mary was anything less than divine. And what of Mary's parents--were they divine too?

Josiah's question regarding "praying to Mary" was addressed a number of times. Catholics who took the time to answer said that they were asking Mary to petition in prayer on their behalf, which seems to be different than praying to Mary as they would to our heavenly Father. It's the word "prayer" that has people going "ape."

You received your answer a number of times Josiah. Maybe you should type "Sister Charlotte" into your web browser to see what kind of people you are dealing with. The Roman Catholic Church has taken extreme measures to deal with heresy over the centuries.

I would point out, to all who care to listen, that no prayers would be heard in Heaven if Jesus did not become our High Priest to intercede on our behalf. Without Jesus, no prayers would be heard--not by Mary, not by anyone. Thankfully, no one here yet has called Mary the High Priestess who intercedes on our behalf. That would be more than heresy--it would be blasphemy.

You folks can keep adding timber to the fire. As for me, I'll be moving along now, never to return to this thread again. These "How many angels can fit on the head of a pin" arguments get to be tedious after a while.

To pray is a privilege; to have our prayers answered is the blessing.

 

[leothelioness]

That is a very sad position to take. You don't think that while standing in the face of Jesus, you wouldn't make a prayer for a brother or sister?

Oy vey. I see no indication anywhere in the Bible (particularly Revelations which tells the goings on in heaven) that we will pray for people on earth.

Apparently we will be too busy worshipping God to do anything else.

But what I was saying was that if anybody does pray to me I can't hear nor answer their prayer. Only God can hear and answer prayers.

Like I said I think in heaven we'll be too preoccupied with worshipping God to worry about much else.

 

[leothelioness]

I thought you just said that you aren't going to intercede for anyone?

I'm not. I was telling Gratia that I would come and join him in heaven.

 

[repentant]

Oy vey. I see no indication anywhere in the Bible (particularly Revelations which tells the goings on in heaven) that we will pray for people on earth.

Apparently we will be too busy worshipping God to do anything else.

But what I was saying was that if anybody does pray to me I can't hear nor answer their prayer. Only God can hear and answer prayers.

Like I said I think in heaven we'll be too preoccupied with worshipping God to worry about much else.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

 

[leothelioness]

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

It's all in how you interpret it, my friend. The prayers of the saints that are being mentioned here are those prayers from the saints yet to enter heaven.

In other words these are my prayers, your prayers and all the prayers of those on this forum.

 

[repentant]

It's all in how you interpret it, my friend. The prayers of the saints that are being mentioned here are those prayers from the saints yet to enter heaven.

In other words these are my prayers, your prayers and all the prayers of those on this forum.

Who is offering up these prayers for those who have yet to enter heaven?....our prayers?

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So by what you just said, it's shows that our prayer's can go through those already in heaven!!

Do you see now?

The 24 Elders are offering our paryers to God..see how it works??!! We pray, and the Saints in heaven offer them to God!!! YAY!!

 

[leothelioness]

Who is offering up these prayers for those who have yet to enter heaven?....our prayers?

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So by what you just said, it's shows that our prayer's can go through those already in heaven!!

Do you see now?

The 24 Elders are offering our paryers to God..see how it works??!! We pray, and the Saints in heaven offer them to God!!! YAY!!

But that still doesn't mean that they actually hear our prayers.

Still, I'm not going to pray to anyone other than my Lord simply because I do not feel it right within my heart. I would be afraid of commiting the unforgivable sin of blasphemy and my conscience will not permit me to do so.

However, if you want to pray to the saints I encourage you to do so. If you feel it is right within your heart to pray to the saints God has obviously given you the permission to do so.

 

[repentant]

But that still doesn't mean that they actually hear our prayers.

Still, I'm not going to pray to anyone other than my Lord simply because I do not feel it right within my heart. I would be afraid of commiting the unforgivable sin of blasphemy and my conscience will not permit me to do so.

However, if you want to pray to the saints I encourage you to do so. If you feel it is right within your heart to pray to the saints God has obviously given you the permission to do so.

Does it matter if they hear them, if they are offering them up to God for us? Based on your interpretation of the Rev. verses, we clearly see that those in heaven, offer our prayer's to God.

And how is asking a Saint to pray for us, commiting the unforgivable sin of blasphemy? Is it denying the Holy Spirit? No..if anything it is showing the Holy Spirit. Showing how He works through the Saints, as He did in the past.

 

[leothelioness]

Does it matter if they hear them, if they are offering them up to God for us? Based on your interpretation of the Rev. verses, we clearly see that those in heaven, offer our prayer's to God.

And how is asking a Saint to pray for us, commiting the unforgivable sin of blasphemy? Is it denying the Holy Spirit? No..if anything it is showing the Holy Spirit. Showing how He works through the Saints, as He did in the past.

Here you go again arguing with my personal beliefs.

As I said if you feel it right within your heart to pray to the saints go ahead. I however do not because I do not feel it right within my heart to do so nor will my conscience permit me.

I personally believe that praying to anyone other than God is blasphemy. That is my personal belief and I will not commit what I believe in my heart to be a grave, unforgivable sin.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by repentant
Who is offering up these prayers for those who have yet to enter heaven?....our prayers?

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So by what you just said, it's shows that our prayer's can go through those already in heaven!!

Do you see now?

The 24 Elders are offering our paryers to God..see how it works??!! We pray, and the Saints in heaven offer them to God!!! YAY!!

What is your view of those "24 elders" and the "4 living creatures"?

(NKJV) Leviticus 4:15 'And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD. Then the bull shall be killed before the LORD.

Numbers 11:30 And Moses returned to the camp, [both] he and the elders of Israel.

 

[repentant]

Here you go again arguing with my personal beliefs.

As I said if you feel it right within your heart to pray to the saints go ahead. I however do not because I do not feel it right within my heart to do so nor will my conscience permit me.

I personally believe that praying to anyone other than God is blasphemy. That is my personal belief and I will not commit what I believe in my heart to be a grave, unforgivable sin.

Ok that's fine...sugestion though. Learn what the word "prayer" means. And also what blasphemy is..

 

[repentant]

What is your view of those "24 elders" and the "4 living creatures"?

(NKJV) Leviticus 4:15 'And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD. Then the bull shall be killed before the LORD.

Numbers 11:30 And Moses returned to the camp, [both] he and the elders of Israel.

I could post alot of NT (not OT) verses with the word "Elder" in it if I wanted..

But to answer your question, the four living creatures are the Gospel writer's, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And the 24 Elder's are probably early Church Elder's, the Apostles, Holy Father's etc.

Really it doesn't matter who they are, we still see in Scripture they offer up prayer's to God for us.

 

[leothelioness]

Ok that's fine...sugestion though. Learn what the word "prayer" means. And also what blasphemy is..

I know what those words mean. I don't need to learn them.

I am personally offended that you think that I as a Christian don't know what they mean.

 

[repentant]

I know what those words mean. I don't need to learn them.

I am personally offended that you think that I as a Christian don't know what they mean.

Prayer-"to ask"

Blashemy (of the Holy Spirit)- to attribute the Work of the Holy Spirit to the devil, or more precisly, denying the Works and Saving Grace of the Holy Spirit to your death. Hence why it is "unforgivable".

 

[leothelioness]

Prayer-"to ask"

Blashemy (of the Holy Spirit)- to attribute the Work of the Holy Spirit to the devil, or more precisly, denying the Works and Saving Grace of the Holy Spirit to your death. Hence why it is "unforgivable".

I see you completely disregarded the whole of my post. You seem to have thought me stupid enough that you must go ahead and give definitions.

I must say that prayer and blasphemy are two things that are so multiapplicational and so complex that simply assigning it a definition does not do it justice. As a matter of fact mere words do these two things injustice.

They are so complex that words cannot even begin to describe them. Words cannot possibly encompass their meaning. In effect words mean nothing.

 

[mike1reynolds]

You seem to have thought me stupid enough that you must go ahead and give definitions.

They are so complex that words cannot even begin to describe them. Words cannot possibly encompass their meaning. In effect words mean nothing.

The last paragraph completely nullifies your complaint that he was insulting your intelligence by attempt to come up with a solid definition rather than an undefined intuitive feeling for what they mean.

Undefined intuitive feelings can be quite complex, which is why it is important to try to precisely pin down what words mean. Otherwise you are not really talking to people, you are just talking past them.

 

[repentant]

So when you pray, do you use words? I mean if they mean nothing....

 

[mike1reynolds]

Here you go again arguing with my personal beliefs.

These are not personal beliefs, these are intolerant opinions about the personal beliefs of the majority of Christendom.

I personally believe that praying to anyone other than God is blasphemy. That is my personal belief and I will not commit what I believe in my heart to be a grave, unforgivable sin.

Asking people to pray for you is a sin?

I don't pray to saints, I don't pray at all for the most part, I'm too modest to ask God for stuff, but I do think about God in meditative ways, and sometimes I think about my mother, grandfather and grandmother in a manner that calls on the memory of them for emotional support.

I don't see any difference at all here, and based on what you are saying this extremely common act that I do is just as much of a blasphemy as the propitiation of saints. You would probably call what I do ancestor worship.