Restore Wine to the Table

[ParsonJefferson]

Koey,
So which is more important, the "fruit of the vine" which Christ called His Blood or the ethanol?

If you wish to use wine during the LS, I see no problem with that, but I think it would be very impractical to take everyone's "drink order" before the LS. People who prefer alcohol are not offended by grape juice, but people whose concience will not allow them to consume alcohol in that manner probably would be offended by wine. Tolerance runs both ways you know.....

That's a good point!

Personally, I don't see it as a huge, divisive issue either way.

However, it should probably be noted that the "wine" of biblical times was both the only way of preserving fruit juice and was not artificially fermented, in order to have an un-naturally high alcohol content.

But it should also be noted that extremely small amount of wine involved in communion services is highly unlikely to cause any problems for either the recovering alcoholic, or the person who might "head down the wrong path" with booze.


My preference is to use grape juice. I'm not fond of wine - either to drink socially or for communion. On the other hand, "wine or grape juice at the communion table" would not be a point of division for me.

 

[Koey]

I look at it this way. It's a spectrum with both extremes being wrong:

Religiously -- personal ----- personal ---- drunken
mandated -- choice to --- choice to ---- excess &
teetotaling -- abstain --- drink a little -- debauchery​

The far left choice copies the Pharisees in making Christianity a bondage of man-made rules. The far right is a sin, because the Bible says so plainly.

The middle two choices are perfectly legitimate Christian choices. Jesus did not abstain. Instead, he took wine the night he was betrayed and made it a special token of his death. John the Baptist who was an ascetic, did abstain his whole life.

 

[JDIBe]

I look at it this way. It's a spectrum with both extremes being wrong:

Religiously -- personal ----- personal ---- drunken
mandated -- choice to --- choice to ---- excess &
teetotaling -- abstain --- drink a little -- debauchery​

The far left choice copies the Pharisees in making Christianity a bondage of man-made rules. The far right is a sin, because the Bible says so plainly.

The middle two choices are perfectly legitimate Christian choices. Jesus did not abstain. Instead, he took wine the night he was betrayed and made it a special token of his death. John the Baptist who was an ascetic, did abstain his whole life.

So why are you arguing that we have to use alcoholic wine when the word Jesus used means "fruit of the vine"? Wouldn't the "moderate" view be personal choice in the matter? (As long as it falls under the catagory "fruit of the vine"....)

 

[Splayd]

Hey there Koey!

I agree with your spectrum. I also think we could consider it all from a religious perspective with "must be non-alcoholic grape juice" and "must be alcoholic wine" as the extreme perspectives.

Personally - I see that using the fruit of the vine for communion is perfectly valid whether or not it's fermented. Of course, this is purely speculation, but I can't imagine that at harvest time, the apostles would've refused freshly squeezed grape juice and insisted it be fermented first. Likewise, I can't imagine that they would refuse to use fermented wine at other times. To my thinking - common sense dictates that fruit of the vine was fruit of the vine regardless of it's age. Of course today we have options that weren't available to them. It's viable to keep grape juice all year round. Whether or not that's preferable is a moot point to me. I'll take either.

Peace

 

[JDIBe]

Hey there Koey!

I agree with your spectrum. I also think we could consider it all from a religious perspective with "must be non-alcoholic grape juice" and "must be alcoholic wine" as the extreme perspectives.

Personally - I see that using the fruit of the vine for communion is perfectly valid whether or not it's fermented. Of course, this is purely speculation, but I can't imagine that at harvest time, the apostles would've refused freshly squeezed grape juice and insisted it be fermented first. Likewise, I can't imagine that they would refuse to use fermented wine at other times. To my thinking - common sense dictates that fruit of the vine was fruit of the vine regardless of it's age. Of course today we have options that weren't available to them. It's viable to keep grape juice all year round. Whether or not that's preferable is a moot point to me. I'll take either.

Peace

That's a good point. I hate to drag this out any more than it should, but quite often back then they would mix table wine with water to make it go further. We have historical evidence that later on in the church some Christians did that as well. (I suppose to represent the water and blood that flowed from His side)

So now it becomes a question of:
1. fermented
2. fermented mixed with water or
3. unfermented.

If it's any consolation to you guys, from what I have read, there isn't even perfect agreement among the Jews as to which type to use for their Passover.

Koey & Edmund, if the word Jesus had used was "wine" instead of "fruit of the vine", I'd be there right with you. Seems to me He left some leeway in the matter.

 

[Koey]

So why are you arguing that we have to use alcoholic wine when the word Jesus used means "fruit of the vine"? Wouldn't the "moderate" view be personal choice in the matter? (As long as it falls under the catagory "fruit of the vine"....)

I'm not arguing that we "have" to use real wine instead of kiddie juice. I am saying that if we claim to be restorationist, then restore the original wine too, or get off our self-congratulating hobby horse.

 

[ConservativeChristian97]

Perhaps take your glass and bottle of wine with you? I'm kidding, but coming from a family of alcohalics, I understand why wine is not offered. For some, wine is a stumbling block and to put that stumbling block in front of a brother or sister is a sin.

 

[AJB4]

^ If a Christian were to use fermented wine in the communion as an act of faith, it wouldn't use them to stumble.

 

[ConservativeChristian97]

If a person is an alcohalic, the sight of beer in the fridge their spouse is planning to consume can cause them to stumble. This, too, is a sin.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Perhaps take your glass and bottle of wine with you? I'm kidding, but coming from a family of alcohalics, I understand why wine is not offered. For some, wine is a stumbling block and to put that stumbling block in front of a brother or sister is a sin.

The argument is based solely on us being "restorationists". Also even AA doesn't prohibit consuming alcohol in religious ceremonies and nor do they believe it will cause someone to fall off the wagon. The alcoholic argument doesn't really hold water when the organization that is the foremost in recovery worldwide doesn't restrict the religious use of alcohol.

As restorationists we claim to be restoring the methods used in the first century church. As such we should be using wine and not grape juice. It is for the same reason the CoC do not use instruments. We know that wine was used at the Last Supper and as such we should be using the same elements and not replacing the wine with a substance that was not used in communion until the late 1800's and then only because of the Temperance Movement.

 

[Koey]

The argument is based solely on us being "restorationists". Also even AA doesn't prohibit consuming alcohol in religious ceremonies and nor do they believe it will cause someone to fall off the wagon. The alcoholic argument doesn't really hold water when the organization that is the foremost in recovery worldwide doesn't restrict the religious use of alcohol.

As restorationists we claim to be restoring the methods used in the first century church. As such we should be using wine and not grape juice. It is for the same reason the CoC do not use instruments. We know that wine was used at the Last Supper and as such we should be using the same elements and not replacing the wine with a substance that was not used in communion until the late 1800's and then only because of the Temperance Movement.

Wine and no instruments? The one is clearly stated in Scripture. The other is an argument from silence.