Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

[Jerrysch]

Your New American Bible? Check my faith icon, friend.



'Came together' does not necessarily refer to sexual relations. It could refer to the previous claus, 'pledged to be married.' Grammatically, those makes the most sense. It also makes sense given the following passage concerning divorce. The passage is saying that she was with child before they were married, hence why there are divorce procedings in the following paragraph.

What makes more sense? (taken from ESV)

"When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they were married she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

or

"When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they had sex she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

Yeah, 'came together' refers to marriage.
.

The whole point is to give proof to the fact that Jesus was borne of a virgin. The issue of marriage wasn't what was in view, the fact that Messiah was borne of a virgin was the issue.

 

[Jerrysch]

There is just nothing in the Bible to deny her perpetual virginity. Stop trying to find it because ya'll don't like Catholicism.

Do you plan to keep your wife a perpetual virgin when you marry her?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The whole point is to give proof to the fact that Jesus was borne of a virgin. The issue of marriage wasn't what was in view, the fact that Messiah was borne of a virgin was the issue.

Blind assertion. Prove it with the text. I've shown that marriage was in view in the phrase preceding and the sentence following.

Moreover, the idea of a virgin birth was not widespread in Judaism. There's no reason to believe this was the central polemic of Matthew. While the central polemic of Matthew's infancy narrative was the fulfillment of prophecy, the Hebrew of Isaiah refers to a young woman, not a virgin; and while the LXX does refer to a virgin, it never seemed to enter into Hebrew thought or practice.

Perhaps I can't prove that it refers to marriage. I think it's clear, but maybe not to you. But if anything, the passage is inconclusive, just like the rest of the New Testament on the matter.

Nothing to deny it, nothing. It's just a pious opinion that's acceptable within a Bible-believing framework.

Do you plan to keep your wife a perpetual virgin when you marry her?

My wife's womb won't be the holy of holies, the dwelling place of God only to be entered by the high priest.

Why does it matter so much that she had sex? Do Catholic dogmas really bother ya'll that much?

 

[Rion]

There is just nothing in the Bible to deny her perpetual virginity. Stop trying to find it because ya'll don't like Catholicism.

I understand what you're saying, but it has nothing to do with "not liking Catholicism" but with wanting to know the truth.

If anyone here on the Protestant side argues just to attack the RCC, or try to say that all of the RCC or Orthodox who do so are idol worshippers, then yes, they're wrong and are in need of examining their hearts. But those defending what they believe does not make them trouble makers.

I would urge my fellow Protestants to just drop the matter at this point. We will not change each other's minds, and the doctrine itself is not evil and does not change the truth of Christ's salvation. If these things were truly evil, God would not have allowed it as part of the church for so long, and continue to do so today. That is not to say I think it's right, but that we should follow Paul's words to Titus:

3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

 

[mysterychristian]

Well if you would love to personally see where it came from...you need to invent a time machine, go back to about 33 AD, and you will see..

Ha Ha funny, He He HEE! I hope that doesn't mean that you pray to Mary or Jesus or the saints? Because they may answer you and if they do you can be assured that it won't be approved by God or coming from the true God. I'm assuming that you don't though. You are loved of God.

 

[DeaconDean]

I did pray to Mary a few times, but then stopped because it was pointless to ask someone who could not hear them if I did them silently in the heart when God could hear them and only He could do anything about the prayers in the first place.

In the end, prayers to Mary or saints in pointless because they can not hear them and God wants us only to pray to Him directly.

I couldn't agree more. For are we not taught:

"For this reason let us obey his excellent and glorious will; and imploring his mercy and goodness, let us fall down upon our faces before him and cast ourselves upon his mercy, laying aside all vanity, and contention, and envy which leads to death." -1 Clement 5:1


"So we, while we are in this world, should repent with our whole heart for whatsoever evil we have done in the flesh; while we have yet the time of repentance, that we may be saved by the Lord. For after we shall have departed out of this world, we shall no longer be able to confess our sins or repent in the other." - 2 Clement 3:15-16

If Clement of Rome believed that we should fall down on our faces before God, and that there was no repentance or confession in the next, how can someone who has gone before us (i.e., Mary) pray for us?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[repentant]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Jesus is our intercessor!
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

See this is what I am talking about. People fail to even listen to what other's are saying. Yes we know that Christ is our intercessor to God. But why can't we have someone intercede for us to Christ? Someone else praying for you is interceding for you. Do you see this?

 

[repentant]

Why would we need an intercessor for the intercessor? Sorry, but you're not making any sense here.

Do you not realize that asking someone, anyone to pray for you is asking them to intercede? So I take you have never asked anyone to pray for you? I guess James told us to pray for one another for no reason..

Actually I did. You must not have bothered to read it.

Anything I say won't be good enough for you anyway.

No you didn't. Show me where please, or resay it. I would like to see how you deny clear Biblical intercession.

Oh I see it now..

You totally blew this one out of proportion. I don't think intercession has anything to do with it.

This is your reply? Care to explain your view?

 

[repentant]

Ha Ha funny, He He HEE! I hope that doesn't mean that you pray to Mary or Jesus or the saints? Because they may answer you and if they do you can be assured that it won't be approved by God or coming from the true God. I'm assuming that you don't though. You are loved of God.

You assume wrong..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

First of all, the text doesn't say three. It lists four male children after Jesus (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) and at least two sisters.

However, the term is aldelphoi. This does not necessarily mean 'brothers' or 'sisters.' It can mean almost any type of relative.

Moreover, although the English says that she did not have relations with Joseph until the time of His birth, the Greek word 'until' (heos) does not necessarily imply a beginning of something else after an end, as it does in English. For instance, the ancient Greek Old Testament says that Solomon's daughter did not have children until (heos) she died. Are we to imagine that she then had children, once she was dead?

There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

(emphasis mine and not original)



IMHO, this is the Lutheran position.

But since the Bible has NOTHING to remotely confirm the position, it's also not doctrine - and certainly not dogma.

My Lutheran brother and friend here accepts the position as pious opinion, I do not. Neither of us calls the other "heretic."


My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[IamAdopted]

So now that the saints are with the Lord does anyone really expect them to know and understand what is going on here on earth? They are no longer here but present with the Lord.. God has wiped the tears from their eyes. They are at rest with the Lord. Why would the Lord burden them with the prayers of the saints down here. They are at rest.. They are asleep in the Lord.. Jesus makes intercession for us..Why would we need to go to anyone else to get to Jesus? He calls us friends if we do His fathers will. We can come BOLDLY to the throne of Grace. We do not have anything to fear because Christ has imputed His rightousness on us.. Therefore because of Him we can come into the Holy of Holies and make our requests known to Him. He has torn down the curtain.

 

[Axion]

All Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ. All members of that body, rejoice or suffer together

1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many...
24 ... But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

However some would try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth.

On the contrary, we see that in Jesus no Christian is dead.
Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

Christians are asked to share a MEDIATION of Prayer.

"I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."
1Timothy 2:1-5

From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:
1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.
2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.
3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer.

Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage many have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.

James 5: 16-18 " ...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don't know an Elijah personally. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation 5, they do.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

[mysterychristian]

You assume wrong..

The Dead are NOT Alive

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

In the grave the dead have no:

• knowledge, wisdom
• reward
• memory
• love, hatred, envy
• portion
• work
• device

The Word of God is the Will of God. What God says in His Word is true. He says what He means and means what He says. God's Word declares that the dead exist in a state of gravedom or unconsciousness in which they have no knowledge or wisdom. Their memory is forgotten. (This does not mean we have forgotten them - it means they have no memory). They earn no rewards. They do no work. They do not "invent things" (there is no device). They have no emotions - love, hate, or jealousy.
When someone says they have heard from someone who has died they are directly contradicting God's Word.

• The dead can not tell you information. They have no knowledge.
• The dead can not tell you about some new idea. There is no device in the grave.
• The dead can not tell you they love you. There is no love, hate, or envy in the grave.
• The dead can not come back for revenge. There is no hate or jealousy in the grave.
• The dead can not earn redemption. There is no work in the grave and there are no rewards.

In short the dead have NO MORE PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING DONE UNDER THE SUN!
The dead have nothing to do with the living. They are DEAD!


Death is an enemy:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Death is the direct result of Adams disobedience to God's command.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Death comes from the devil - NOT GOD. Jesus Christ came to destroy him that has the power of death - the devil.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus Christ came that we might have life and that we might have it more abundantly: everlasting life.

The return of Jesus Christ will bring victory over the enemy: death

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Philippians 3:20-21
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Isaiah 26:8b...the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isaiah 38:18-19a For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day...


You are loved of God, this information is directly from the bible it is not man made tradition, very important to know stuff......
​

 

[repentant]

The Dead are NOT Alive

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Really? So I guess Christ came and died for nothing. You can't use OT passages to state your point.
In the grave the dead have no:

• knowledge, wisdom
• reward
• memory
• love, hatred, envy
• portion
• work
• device

The Word of God is the Will of God. What God says in His Word is true. He says what He means and means what He says. God's Word declares that the dead exist in a state of gravedom or unconsciousness in which they have no knowledge or wisdom. Their memory is forgotten. (This does not mean we have forgotten them - it means they have no memory). They earn no rewards. They do no work. They do not "invent things" (there is no device). They have no emotions - love, hate, or jealousy.
When someone says they have heard from someone who has died they are directly contradicting God's Word.

• The dead can not tell you information. They have no knowledge.
• The dead can not tell you about some new idea. There is no device in the grave.
• The dead can not tell you they love you. There is no love, hate, or envy in the grave.
• The dead can not come back for revenge. There is no hate or jealousy in the grave.
• The dead can not earn redemption. There is no work in the grave and there are no rewards.

In short the dead have NO MORE PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING DONE UNDER THE SUN!
The dead have nothing to do with the living. They are DEAD!


Death is an enemy:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Death is the direct result of Adams disobedience to God's command.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Death comes from the devil - NOT GOD. Jesus Christ came to destroy him that has the power of death - the devil.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus Christ came that we might have life and that we might have it more abundantly: everlasting life.

The return of Jesus Christ will bring victory over the enemy: death

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Philippians 3:20-21
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Isaiah 26:8b...the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isaiah 38:18-19a For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day...


You are loved of God, this information is directly from the bible it is not man made tradition, very important to know stuff......
​

Really? So I guess Christ came and died for nothing. You can't use OT passages to state your point.

Death has already been conquered when Jesus died on the Cross and Ressurected.

If you use verses from the Bible my friend, it helps to know what they mean. If you think that people who have died in Christ are not alive, then you have alot to learn. Read Axions reply, it will show you.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.


John 8:51
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

 

[mysterychristian]

Really? So I guess Christ came and died for nothing. You can't use OT passages to state your point.

Death has already been conquered when Jesus died on the Cross and Ressurected.

If you use verses from the Bible my friend, it helps to know what they mean. If you think that people who have died in Christ are not alive, then you have alot to learn. Read Axions reply, it will show you.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.


John 8:51
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

What's the point of a ressurection if they are already in heaven? Ressurections bring people from the dead!!!

Are they ressurected from the dead in heaven?

You are denying the return of christ, the Gathering together in a twinkling of an eye in Corinthians and Thess and also all the ressurections from the dead.

Jesus Christ need not have died and risen from the dead if every one who dies is already in heaven, he died in vain as you say, to believe what you believe and 99 % of christians you would have to deny the ressurections and the gathering and so whats the point for it all, if death brings you instantly into the presence of God, then it's a welcomed friend and we should all kill ourselves but as I stated it's an enemy that will in the Future be destroyed, for the funeral homes are not lacking for business as I see it.

This dead being alive is a lie that was started by the devil in Gen at the fall of man, it's one of the biggest lies in the world today, poeple believe what they see and hear instead of the word. The devil told adam ye shall not surely die! God said that ye shall surely die.Spiritualist believe that ye are alive floating around in heaven, and many Christians unfortunatly have been duped by this teaching not knowing the scriptures.

Truth VS Experience

Something is not true because you experience it. Something is true because God's Word says it is true. You must judge your experiences by the truth of God's Word and never judge or attempt to understand God's Word in light of your experiences. Experiences can be deceitful and counterfeit. Only by knowing and acting according to the truth of God's Word can you be assured that your experiences will glorify God.

To understand this concept we will examine the record in God's Word regarding Saul and the woman of Endor. Let us look first at the truth of the Word.

TRUTH
Leviticus 19:31Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


Leviticus 20:27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
A familiar spirit is a devil spirit that hangs around to get "familiar" with people and circumstances and then impersonates a person after he/she dies and speaks through another person who has the familiar spirit living in him. A counterfeit must be very very close to the original to be believed. When a familiar spirit produces a person who was once alive, it must look, act, and sound like the original if the counterfeit is to be believed by someone who is very knowledgeable of the person being imitated. The familiar spirit will use information that "only the person who has died could know" to convince those consulting it.

The Word of God is clear regarding God's view of such practices. God says it is an abomination (it is disgusting! yuk!) to listen to a person with a familiar spirit. God says anyone who consults with a person who has a familiar spirit should be cut off from among God's people, not found among the believers, and that believers are not to regard or listen to what familiar spirits have to say. A person who allowed a familiar spirit to live within him was to be "put to death."

God's Word is clear that these counterfeit experiences are deceitful and are to be avoided. Believers are not to get mixed up with the practice of talking to the dead.

The dead have nothing to do with the living. They are DEAD!

This is the truth of God's Word. Therefore, any experience that relates to communication with the dead has to be a deceitful counterfeit promoted by a devil spirit (known as a familiar spirit) imitating a person who has died. That is why the Word of God says such experience is not to be regarded or sought after and is disgusting to God.

EXPERIENCE
Now, lets look at King Saul. Saul had disobeyed God and the man of God, Samuel, told Saul that God was sorry that He had ever made Saul the king. Samuel had anointed David to be the new king and did not speak to or visit Saul again. Saul was "out of favor" with God and Samuel and was following after devil spirits. After Samuel died Saul tried to talk to God:
I Samuel 28:3
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and wizards, out of the land.


Samuel, the man of God, was dead. Saul had put those with familiar spirits out of the land but he had not killed them as the law required. He put them out of the land but he also had servants that kept track of where they were (just in case he needed them.)
I Samuel 28:6
And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.


Because of his disobedience, Saul eventually got into so much trouble that he asked God to help. However, God had rejected Saul and refused to give him HIS Word. God was not talking. Therefore Saul decided to try and talk to Samuel who was dead!

Now, the Word of God is clear. You cannot talk to the dead and they cannot talk to you. But experiences with communication with the "so called" dead were, and ARE, available via familiar spirits. The experience is counterfeit and deceitful and disgusting to God; but it is available and Saul's servants knew just where to find a woman with a familiar spirit.
I Samuel 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.


Saul knew God's Word regarding familiar spirits, yet he put the opportunity for this experience above the truth of God's Word. God would not talk to him, but a woman with a familiar spirit would. However, being the king of Israel and the one who expelled those with familiar spirits from the land, he knew that he would have to go in disguise.
I Samuel 28:8-11
And Saul disguised himself and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.


Saul promised this woman (who deserved death according to the law of God) that nothing would happen to her. And he promised it in God's name. Now this woman was not very smart. The Word of God says that Saul was a head taller than anyone in the kingdom. Even in disguise, it would be difficult to not recognize Saul. Then Saul, knowing that the dead are dead and cannot communicate with the living, asked the woman to use the familiar spirit to produce Samuel. God would not talk to him, and Samuel refused to talk to him when he was alive - how could Saul believe that the experience he was about to have would really be Samuel giving him God's Word? ? ? If he were relying upon a knowledge of the truth, he would not and could not believe it. But Saul was looking for experience - not truth.
I Samuel 28:12
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.


As the spirit possessing this woman took control she suddenly got real smart. The devil spirit had no trouble recognizing Saul. And with this declaration, the spirit (and the false experience) got Saul's attention. The spirit imitated Samuel and held a conversation with Saul. The spirit reiterated the Word of God that Saul knew by heart - that God was departed from him. Devil spirits use the truth of God's Word and twist it to convince those who value the experience more than the truth. This spirit never told Saul any positive thing; nor did it tell him anything that had not already been revealed to him (with the notable exception that it told Saul about his death.) Death is of the devil (Hebrews 2:14) anyway, and the spirit was setting Saul up to die. It led him to continue to feel sorry for himself and convinced Saul that he was going to go into battle and die.

I am sure that Saul was overwhelmed by the accuracy and bad news he received from this experience. It was not God's Will for Saul to continue in his disobedience and die. Yet this experience convinced Saul that there was no hope for reconciliation with God. He went forward into battle and he was killed as the devil spirit predicted. By inquiring of a familiar spirit, Saul brought himself to a spiritual low that resulted in his death and the death of his sons.
I Samuel 31:2-4, 6
And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons.
And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers.
Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me though, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. . .
So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.


Experientially, Saul died from being wounded by the enemy archers and by falling upon his sword. But the truth of God's Word is that Saul died because he sought an experience with a familiar spirit over the truth of God's Word.
I Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit to inquire of it.

Something is not true because you experience it. Something is true because God's Word says it is true. God's Word is truth not our experiences.

 

[repentant]

Why are you still using the OT? Pre Christ there wasn't eternal life. I don't get why you continue to use the OT. Christ came and defeated death by His death and ressurection. "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He has trampled death, and upon those in the tombs He has bestowed life."-

The ressurection of the dead is to unite our eternal souls, with our purified eternal body's. But before this, the soul is alive. To say the soul is not alive without the body, is saying that our souls sleeps until we reunite with our body, which is gnostic.

Everyone who has died in Christ, is alive. Scripture clearly says this. Christ is the God of the living, not the dead.

 

[mysterychristian]

Why are you still using the OT? Pre Christ there wasn't eternal life. I don't get why you continue to use the OT. Christ came and defeated death by His death and ressurection. "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He has trampled death, and upon those in the tombs He has bestowed life."-

The ressurection of the dead is to unite our eternal souls, with our purified eternal body's. But before this, the soul is alive. To say the soul is not alive without the body, is saying that our souls sleeps until we reunite with our body, which is gnostic.

Everyone who has died in Christ, is alive. Scripture clearly says this. Christ is the God of the living, not the dead.

Old testament believers were promised eternal life, in paradise, and death is death old or new testament, the old test believers are going to be in the Ressurection of the Just, and given eternal life. I understand that you do not understand that's why I tried to show you logically that a ressurection requires a dead body and nowhere in the word at all does it say that souls are in heaven waiting to be united with there bodies. Why Will God send Jesus Christ back to raise the dead and change those that are alive inro their new bodies? This is where you are missing it, ressurection is not neccessary if they are already up there in heaven.

 

[repentant]

Old testament believers were promised eternal life, in paradise, and death is death old or new testament, the old test believers are going to be in the Ressurection of the Just, and given eternal life. I understand that you do not understand that's why I tried to show you logically that a ressurection requires a dead body and nowhere in the word at all does it say that souls are in heaven waiting to be united with there bodies. Why Will God send Jesus Christ back to raise the dead and change those that are alive inro their new bodies? This is where you are missing it, ressurection is not neccessary if they are already up there in heaven.

Read the Rich man and Lazarus. Obviously this must have taken place prior to the ressurection, because the rich man's brother's were still on earth. Yet Lazarus was in heaven. Please explain..


And the reason for the ressurection is to unite our eternal soul with our eternal body. This perfect body and soul, is what Adam was like prior to the fall. This is what the ressurection returns to us.

 

[mysterychristian]

Read the Rich man and Lazarus. Obviously this must have taken place prior to the ressurection, because the rich man's brother's were still on earth. Yet Lazarus was in heaven. Please explain..


And the reason for the ressurection is to unite our eternal soul with our eternal body. This perfect body and soul, is what Adam was like prior to the fall. This is what the ressurection returns to us.

It's a parable, read the context surrounding it. Many miss this. becasue they do not read the context.

The first thing you have to understand is that this is a parable:

In two ancient Greek manuscripts-theBazae Caulabrigiensis and the koridethiean-Caesarean text-words are included which have been deleted in other translations. Both of the ancient translations begin Luke 16:19 with the word: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means "And he said also another parable",

A parable is acomparison by sustained resemblence. a parable is an extended simile: the resemblance is usually in one specific characteristic. The likeness or resemblence must always be sought from the essence of the entire context.

The confusion and misunderstanding of the parable in luke lies in the Pharisaic beliefs.

Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees.

So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediatly upon death as so many believe today.

This parable does not say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishments after death; this is what the Pharisees believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.

This passage in Luke must be interpreted in accordance with the great quantity or mass of scriptures.

One cannot reject the one hundred clear passages and accept the one seemingly contradictory one.

Jesus could not have denied Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6
For to him that is joined to all th eliving there is hope:for aliving dog is better than a dead lion.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have theyanymore a reward: for the memory of them is forgotten.

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything under the sun.

Jesus Christ would not have contradicted the word of God in John 11:11,12,13,14

These things said he: after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Then said his disciples, Lord if he sleep, he shall do well.

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus could not have been more explicit than when He said ...Lazarus is dead....

Luke 14:14

Also plainly teaches about death and ressurection

And thou shalt be blessed; for they (the dead, the lame, the blind) cannot recompence thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the ressurection of the just.

How could Jesus in one place talk about being recompensed at the essurection of the just and yet teach that there is an immediate reward and punishment after death?

Although Luke 16 must be understood as a parable,
further clarity is achieved with a more accurate translation of verses 22 and 23

And it came to pass, that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abrahams bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; also in hell (hades, the grave)

the first three words of verse 23 "And in hell..." belong as the last words in verse 22. the word "and" must be translated "also" verse 23 begins with the words:

...he (the rich man) lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Now this is a perfect parable.

The misunderstanding of luke 16 has been read into it by people who try to literalize the parable. Jesus was addressing His illlustration to an indicated group of people and was wisely able to trap them in their own snare of unbelief-"If they hear not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man were not literally alive in "hades" they as all others, are literally dead until the ressurection.

These three people were simply figuratively used to make a striking impact on the criticizing Pharisees

 

[repentant]

It's a parable, read the context surrounding it. Many miss this. becasue they do not read the context.

The first thing you have to understand is that this is a parable:

In two ancient Greek manuscripts-theBazae Caulabrigiensis and the koridethiean-Caesarean text-words are included which have been deleted in other translations. Both of the ancient translations begin Luke 16:19 with the word: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means "And he said also another parable",

A parable is acomparison by sustained resemblence. a parable is an extended simile: the resemblance is usually in one specific characteristic. The likeness or resemblence must always be sought from the essence of the entire context.

The confusion and misunderstanding of the parable in luke lies in the Pharisaic beliefs.

Why would Jesus say something, even if it was a parable, that couldn't be true? Why would He use references in a parable that could not happen? Also how do you know that this was really a parable? Maybe it really did happen, or was going to happen in the future. We don't know. But the fact remains that even in a parable, Jesus would not use references that were not true. Therefore when people die, and before the general judgement and the rerssurection of the dead, people are in hades, and people are in heaven. Jesus wouldn't say something untrue, even in a parable..