Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

[Kristos]

And I should trust writings outside of the Bible for that?

If the Apostle Paul never mentioned Mary [except in Gala 4] in his Epistles , why should I believe what anyone outside of the Bible says about her.? Just wondering.

LUKE 3:23 And he was Jesus beginning as if of years 30 being son as,was to Law.


Galatians 4:4 and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under/upo
law/nomon,

Del

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

...

 

[mysterychristian]

In the past I thought about something, that is that some say they pray to the Virgin Mary, sometimes I have heard her called Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Lady of such-and-such place. With the doctrine on the Virgin Mary and praying to her I remembered two verses in the Gospel of Matthew that has caused concern. The following verses are as follows

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25 NASB)


" He [Jesus] came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13: 54-56 NASB).

By these two verses, we see that Mary had four sons, James, Joseph (Jr.), Simon and Judas and at least two daughters - this comes from the fact that the original Greek is plural - by her husband Joseph. I quoted from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) because it is the most literal translation for English available today.

Through the daughters and the some of Simon, Judas, and Joseph Jr., Mary and Joseph had the opportunity to have descendents. It is uncertain under James because the book of the Acts of the Apostles, a writing credited to Luke, says that he was killed by a sword. I do not know if he married and had children or descendents. The main point is that it is almost 2,000 years since Mary and Joseph had children and the significance is that is very probable for them to have living descendents today.

This leads to one concern for the doctrine to praying to Mary and petitioning her as some Catholic branches do. If she has living descendents, then it means that any who act according to the doctrine about the Virgin Mary, then it would literally be praying to their ancestor. Yet, the Bible clearly shows that the dead cannot hear petitions of prayer and the First Commandment is clear, "You shall have no other gods before me." The ramification for this command is that prayers and petitions can be only directed to the one God and no one else, whether it is angels or saintly men and women.

I did pray to Mary a few times, but then stopped because it was pointless to ask someone who could not hear them if I did them silently in the heart when God could hear them and only He could do anything about the prayers in the first place.

In the end, prayers to Mary or saints in pointless because they can not hear them and God wants us only to pray to Him directly.

Prayer is ALWAYS WITH NO EXCEPTIONS to be directed to God, or the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. Never to Jesus, to Mary, to the saints, ALWAYS NO EXCEPTIONS to God or the Father.

If you do not believe this all you have to do is look it up and try and find one prayer going to anyone othere than God or the Father, if by chance you do please post it and the context surrounding it so that we may all see it.

I'd personnally love to see where this doctrine of praying to Mary, Jesus, or the saints originated from?

You are loved of the Father

 

[repentant]

Prayer is ALWAYS WITH NO EXCEPTIONS to be directed to God, or the Father, in the name of Christ. Never to Jesus, to Mary, to the saints, ALWAYS NO EXCEPTIONS to God or the Father.

If you do not believe this all you have to do is look it up and try and find one prayer going to anyone othere than God or the Father, if by chance you do please post it and the context surrounding it so that we may all see it.

I'd personnally love to see where this doctrine of praying to Mary, Jesus, or the saints originated from?

You are loved of the Father

Well if you would love to personally see where it came from...you need to invent a time machine, go back to about 33 AD, and you will see..

 

[Brucea]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Jesus is our intercessor!
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

 

[Jerrysch]

In the past I thought about something, that is that some say they pray to the Virgin Mary, sometimes I have heard her called Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Lady of such-and-such place. With the doctrine on the Virgin Mary and praying to her I remembered two verses in the Gospel of Matthew that has caused concern. The following verses are as follows

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25 NASB)


" He [Jesus] came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13: 54-56 NASB).

By these two verses, we see that Mary had four sons, James, Joseph (Jr.), Simon and Judas and at least two daughters - this comes from the fact that the original Greek is plural - by her husband Joseph. I quoted from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) because it is the most literal translation for English available today.

Through the daughters and the some of Simon, Judas, and Joseph Jr., Mary and Joseph had the opportunity to have descendents. It is uncertain under James because the book of the Acts of the Apostles, a writing credited to Luke, says that he was killed by a sword. I do not know if he married and had children or descendents. The main point is that it is almost 2,000 years since Mary and Joseph had children and the significance is that is very probable for them to have living descendents today.

This leads to one concern for the doctrine to praying to Mary and petitioning her as some Catholic branches do. If she has living descendents, then it means that any who act according to the doctrine about the Virgin Mary, then it would literally be praying to their ancestor. Yet, the Bible clearly shows that the dead cannot hear petitions of prayer and the First Commandment is clear, "You shall have no other gods before me." The ramification for this command is that prayers and petitions can be only directed to the one God and no one else, whether it is angels or saintly men and women.

I did pray to Mary a few times, but then stopped because it was pointless to ask someone who could not hear them if I did them silently in the heart when God could hear them and only He could do anything about the prayers in the first place.

In the end, prayers to Mary or saints in pointless because they can not hear them and God wants us only to pray to Him directly.

Exactly correct, yet let's take the analysis a bit farther. Let's say that there are arround 6,000,000 members of that group who pray to Mary, and let's say that of them 20% at any time of the day are praying to her that is 1,200,000 persons at any given time. What makes any one think that a dead person can hear those requests and even if they could, that they could do anything about those requests. There is only one person who can hear the 1,200,000 requests and do something about them, He is God. There is no indication that God gives dead people the ability to act in His stead.

 

[Jerrysch]

This post is VERY bogus. Mary DID NOT have ANY other children. You hear this nonsense from anti-Catholics or sites that are so. What Bible do you quote from??".

Mt 12:46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Matthew 13:56
"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"


Mark 3:31
Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him.

Luke 8:19
And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd.

John 2:12

After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.


New Am Standard




Mt 12:46 32 While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. 47 (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.")
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm


Mt13:55
Is he not the carpenter's son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56 Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?" http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew13.htm


Mk 3:31
His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm


Lk 8:19 Then his mother and his brothers 6 came to him but were unable to join him because of the crowd. 20 He was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside and they wish to see you."
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/luke/luke8.htm




John 2:11
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him. 12 After this, he and his mother, (his) brothers, and his disciples went down to Capernaum and stayed there only a few days.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john2.htm


The last group is taken from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and thier New American Bible. So even the USCCB does not agree with you.

 

[Jerrysch]

This post is VERY bogus. Mary DID NOT have ANY other children. You hear this nonsense from anti-Catholics or sites that are so. What Bible do you quote from?? Imagine Mary naming one of her kids JUDAS..this approach toward the Catholic faith is what othr faiths are confused about. When people like this come on and defame Our Blessed Mother.
My advice to you is to learn how to pray the Rosary to her,and read all about her apparitons over the centuries.
Jesus was Divine. Her task was to give birth to the Son of God and nothing more. "ALL NATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESS-ED".

The New American Bible refers to this individual as Judas, it was a good Jewish name.

 

[Jerrysch]

This post is VERY bogus. Mary DID NOT have ANY other children. You hear this nonsense from anti-Catholics or sites that are so. What Bible do you quote from?? Imagine Mary naming one of her kids JUDAS..this approach toward the Catholic faith is what othr faiths are confused about. When people like this come on and defame Our Blessed Mother.
My advice to you is to learn how to pray the Rosary to her,and read all about her apparitons over the centuries.
Jesus was Divine. Her task was to give birth to the Son of God and nothing more. "ALL NATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESS-ED".

And my advice it to pray to someone who can hear what you are prying and can do something in responce to that prayer, and that pesron is God. Prayer is a form of worsip, God alone is to be worshiped.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bella1955
This post is VERY bogus. Mary DID NOT have ANY other children. You hear this nonsense from anti-Catholics or sites that are so. What Bible do you quote from??".

Where in the NC do you see the LORD commanding Mary not to have any more children?

 

[Jerrysch]

Where in the NC do you see the LORD commanding Mary not to have any more children?

And just why would it be necessary in that people have children in fact the first family were given a command
Genesis 1:22


22God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

Now why would they not want to act in accordance with that command.

I'll give you a clue... look up Vestal Virgin and you'll be on the track

 

[Jerrysch]

In my orginial post I am in no way attacking the whole of the Catholic Church. I respect them quite well, so please no more acussations of that.

I speak to one point and that is the specific aspect of people praying to the Virgin Mary.

In response to the second responder of this thread, I can say this with great validity in research. The epistle of James and the epsitle of Jude, another way you can call someone named Judas, were written by James and Judas. They were half-brothers of Jesus, born to Mary.

In the Gospel of Matthew, it is mentioned she gave birth to Jesus, then sexually consumated the marriage to her husband, Joseph.

She is no longer a virgin, she had at least three children!

 

[Jerrysch]

I think we have, considering everything in his post has been discussed thousands of times on this board and elsewhere. His post consisted almost entirely of non-Catholic cliches.

More likely Pro-Bible cliches.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'd personnally love to see where this doctrine of praying to Mary, Jesus, or the saints originated from?

You are loved of the Father

Well if you would love to personally see where it came from...you need to invent a time machine, go back to about 33 AD, and you will see..

The Bible is a Divine "time machine".

Exodus 14:13 And Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the Salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever

Revelation 15:3 and they sing the song of Moses, servant of God,

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

She is no longer a virgin, she had at least three children!

First of all, the text doesn't say three. It lists four male children after Jesus (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) and at least two sisters.

However, the term is aldelphoi. This does not necessarily mean 'brothers' or 'sisters.' It can mean almost any type of relative.

Moreover, although the English says that she did not have relations with Joseph until the time of His birth, the Greek word 'until' (heos) does not necessarily imply a beginning of something else after an end, as it does in English. For instance, the ancient Greek Old Testament says that Solomon's daughter did not have children until (heos) she died. Are we to imagine that she then had children, once she was dead?

There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

 

[Jerrysch]

vbmenu_register("postmenu_30953535", true);

First of all, the text doesn't say three. It lists four children after Jesus (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) and at least two sisters.

However, the term is aldelphoi. This does not necessarily mean 'brothers' or 'sisters.' It can mean almost any type of relative.

Moreover, although the English says that she did not have relations with Joseph until the time of His birth, the Greek word 'until' (heos) does not necessarily imply a beginning of something else after an end, as it does in English. For instance, the ancient Greek Old Testament says that Solomon's daughter did not have children until (heos) she died. Are we to imagine that she then had children, once she was dead?

There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

I said at least three, my point is that even the US Catholic bishops support the renderation of brothers and sisters.

 

[Jerrysch]

Moreover, although the English says that she did not have relations with Joseph until the time of His birth, the Greek word 'until' (heos) does not necessarily imply a beginning of something else after an end, as it does in English. For instance, the ancient Greek Old Testament says that Solomon's daughter did not have children until (heos) she died. Are we to imagine that she then had children, once she was dead?

There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

This is an old dodge, yet it forgets the witness of Mt 1:18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.


Something can't happen before the thing that doesn't happen can it?

In other words, Joseph and Mary had a normal married life by which she had at least three sons and two daughters. Even your New American Bible supports this conclusion.

 

[leothelioness]

He is our intercessor to God, through Him we return to the presence of God, as it was prior to the fall. But there is nothing saying that we cannot not have intercessors for us to Jesus.

Why would we need an intercessor for the intercessor? Sorry, but you're not making any sense here.

And you didn't say anything about the virgin Mary interceding to Jesus on behalf of the wedding party.

Actually I did. You must not have bothered to read it.

Anything I say won't be good enough for you anyway.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Even your New American Bible supports this conclusion.

Your New American Bible? Check my faith icon, friend.

This is an old dodge, yet it forgets the witness of Mt 1:18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

'Came together' does not necessarily refer to sexual relations. It could refer to the previous claus, 'pledged to be married.' Grammatically, those makes the most sense. It also makes sense given the following passage concerning divorce. The passage is saying that she was with child before they were married, hence why there are divorce procedings in the following paragraph.

What makes more sense? (taken from ESV)

"When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they were married she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

or

"When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they had sex she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

Yeah, 'came together' refers to marriage.

Look, I'm not defending the doctrine of the perpetual virginity. I don't hold it as a doctrine, because I'm not Catholic.

But this Protestant anti-Catholicism is just nonsense. I mean, why must she have had sex? Because Catholics say she didn't?

There is just nothing in the Bible to deny her perpetual virginity. Stop trying to find it because ya'll don't like Catholicism.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Why would we need an intercessor for the intercessor? Sorry, but you're not making any sense here.

Not that I necessarily take this position because I don't pray to saints, but....

In Catholic terminology, Christ is the Mediator. He Mediates on our behalf before the Father in matters universal to Christians. This is the picture the Epistle to the Hebrews paints- his mediation is like that of the high priest of Israel, who stands with blood in his hands to make atonement for the whole of the people of God.

The saints, on the other hand, are not mediators. They are intercessors for particular needs. We can, of course, go to Christ for particular needs, but the saints can pray for us, too.

Now, I don't buy into that distinction...

however...

Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Ever put your name on a prayer list? Have you ever prayed for someone else?

When you do those things, are you minimizing Christ's role as intercessor?

Honestly the only reason I don't pray to saints is that Scripture gives me no reason to believe that they are aware of our individual peitions. But there is nothing wrong with it, since they are just as alive and in worship (indeed, moreso) than we are.