A couple of questions regarding Assyrian Church of the East

tall73

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Are those who belong to the Assyrian Church of the East included in this congregational forum?

Can anyone confirm or deny that the Assyrian Church of the East does not accept images/icons, and refused to use the term theotokos?

Does anyone know what the ACE's view is on Mary in general?

Thank you, and if I have the wrong section, I apologize.
 

copticorthodoxy

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This is the Oriental Orthodox Forum , the Oriental Orthodox Churches are :
  • The Church of Alexandria ( The Coptic Orthodox Church )
  • The British Orthodox Church (under the Alexandrian Patriarchate)
  • The Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church
  • The Indian Orthodox Church of the East
  • The Ethiopian Orthodox Church
  • The Eritrean Orthodox Church
  • The Church of Antioch ( The Syriac Orthodox Church )
  • The Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church (under the Syriac Patriarchate)
 
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a_ntv

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Are those who belong to the Assyrian Church of the East included in this congregational forum?

Can anyone confirm or deny that the Assyrian Church of the East does not accept images/icons, and refused to use the term theotokos?

Does anyone know what the ACE's view is on Mary in general?

Thank you, and if I have the wrong section, I apologize.

The Assirian Church of the East is not rappresented in CF.
It is nor EO nor OO (at all).
Using the wrong and surpassed Christological definitions, it is a 'nestorian' Church (a name that anyway is completly un-correct and rejected by them): so very far from the OO Churches.

This Church (ACOE) dont use images, and reject the term theotokos (but not the meaning).
It is anyway a Apostolic Church, with bishops apsotolic succession and Eucharist. There is an inter-communion agreement with the Catholic Church (only in some cases)
Some links: http://www.cired.org/ or http://www.churchdiscussion.com/index.php
It is a very interesting Church because of its semitic heritage: I've read a book about that, but never attended a liturgy. I'm more attracted bu the OO.
About Mary, you can read the fifth paragraph of the joint declaration of this Church with the CC: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html

I think that this forum (OO) is not the right place for this thread. You could move it to specific theology
 
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tall73

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The ACE is against iconagraphy and veneration in Church?

Been doing some more reading. Thanks for the replies here as well. Yes, it is apparently in the wrong forum. Though...nothing really comes close.

And apparently they did at one time have iconography and don't oppose it ,but dropped it due to proximity to Muslims (I assume that means didn't want their churches destroyed).

Thanks for the good posts folks.
 
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a_ntv

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Been doing some more reading. Thanks for the replies here as well. Yes, it is apparently in the wrong forum. Though...nothing really comes close.

And apparently they did at one time have iconography and don't oppose it ,but dropped it due to proximity to Muslims (I assume that means didn't want their churches destroyed).

Thanks for the good posts folks.

Here a link of a ACE parish in the US (http://www.stmaryassyrianchurch.com...d,30/page,view/catid,18/PageNo,1/key,2/hit,1/): From their photo album the church (with a tend but without iconostasis), or the fashion of the altar, or the vestments, or the use of a hand cross by the priest, or the communion rite, look like a bit the OO Syrian customs.
The name of the parish (St Mary) is already a fact.

PS: about images, please keep in mind a difference with the muslims: the muslims forbid any image, including images of object (like a cross) and animals. The iconostaiss christians forbidden only images of God (and of Mary), but they used a lot of allegoric images of animals. Anyway the iconostasis matter was an internal fact of the Bizantine Empire, and so the ACO was not touched by it.

PS: the majority of Assirians are in full communion with Rome (Chaldeans): this was due mainly because they rejected the hereditary succession of the Patriarch (from uncle to nephew) used in the ACE for centuries up to 30 years ago. Anyway the relations between CC and ACE are very good (with even limited intercommunion, as CC with OO Syrians)

As far as I know the relation between ACE and OO Syrians are now quite gentle, while there is a complete closing between ACE and OO Copts.
I ask a OO if it is true.
 
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minasoliman

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The Coptic heirarchs are clear in their rejection to a unity with the ACE on account of their veneration of Nestorius.

I have yet to here a clear and sound common voice from our brothers the Syrians and the Indians (both). All we know that now, the Syrian Church cannot do anything on its own without agreement from the Coptic Church. We work together.

There's a few dissident voices here and there. As for me, I tend to support the Coptic Church, but I am open to a change in heart.

If anything, one can think of the Coptic Church as the most traditionalist, in analogy to ROCOR or Greek Church in Resistance. Even in the EO/OO debates, there was a certain Coptic theologian who was very vociferous against the EO's, while it was an Indian theologian who was more open-minded.

As for iconostases, I'm confused on what you mean by the use of "allegorical animals" in iconostasis. The only figures of animals we use in icons are the four incorporeal creatures (well three if you don't count the one with the head of a human), who we venerate and ask for intercessions. In Islamic countries, our Coptic Churches did not stop putting up the images of the saints, especially with most importance St. Mary and Christ on the iconostases of every church.

God bless.

Mina
 
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Punchy

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Can anyone confirm or deny that the Assyrian Church of the East does not accept images/icons, and refused to use the term theotokos?

The Nestorians were excommunicated by the Council of Ephesus for failing to recognize Mary as Theotokos. To this day, the Assyrian Church of the East refuses Mary that title, but that does not necessarily mean that they split Christ into two persons.
Images are not accepted within Assyrian churches but they do venerate the cross.
 
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I know this thread is old but as an Assyrian i would like to clarify some points made.

1. The Assyrians as a nation are regarded as being the first to convert to Christianity
2. The Assyrians have been constantly persecuted for their belief in Christ and are known as the church of the martyrs
3. St Thomas and Mar Addai are believed to have founded our Church
4. Certain Churches label us heritics for our support of Nestorus, although our Christology was never adopted by him.
5. The same churches under Constantine sought persecution against us, thousands upon thousands of Assyrians were killed by these so called "Christians".
6. We are the only nation in the middle east not to have converted to islam in such a wholesale manner as evident in other mid east nations
7. We speak and retain our Aramaic language as spoken by Jesus and the Apostles

If you google the Assyrian Church of the East, you will tonnes of information in relation to our Church.
 
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Anglian

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Dear Christ's Warrior,

Thank you for the enlightenment. There are some of us who think that these old misunderstandings should be cleared up. It is, as you say, quite clear that your Church was never 'Nestorian' - any more than our own Church was ever 'Monophysite'. Both Churches have suffered cruelly over the centuries.

peace be with you.

Anglian
 
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Dear Christ's Warrior,

Thank you for the enlightenment. There are some of us who think that these old misunderstandings should be cleared up. It is, as you say, quite clear that your Church was never 'Nestorian' - any more than our own Church was ever 'Monophysite'. Both Churches have suffered cruelly over the centuries.

peace be with you.

Anglian

God bless you and peace be with you in Christ Jesus.

It saddens me that Churches who preach Christ are not in full communion and reflecting love for one another with the Love that the Apostle Paul spoke of. The division within the Holy Apostolic Churches is not from God but from men.

I know that our Lord and our Saviour would rejoice at the Church being ONE in spirit and I hope and pray that with this generation of young devout Christians, we may begin to openly commune with each other, encourage each other, pray for each other and protect each other in the name of Jesus Christ.

My Christianity comes first before my nationality, being Assyrian will never save me, believing in Christ and acting upon my faith will save me and this is true for any Christian from any nation.

My true brothers and sisters are all those from the Church of Christ, those who sacrifice their lives and deny the passions of this world to serve God.

God Bless you all. :groupray:
 
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Assyrian

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Isaiah 19:23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria will come into Egypt, and Egypt into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth,
25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance."

I am Irish myself but took my username from the Assyrian Church who shared the same missionary heart as the Celtic Church. I don't think that prophecy in Isaiah has been fulfilled yet, has it?
 
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In the theological agreement with the Catholic Church the Assyrian Church of the East accepted that the term Theotokos was legitmate and not heretical.

We call her the Mother of Christ, who is Christ, is he not God?

My priest gives her the title of The Mother of God, although most Assyrians use different terminology, it means the same thing does it not?

Differences aside my brother and sisters, our foundation is what's important, our belief in Christ Jesus is important, encouraging one another in the face of persecution is important and most of all LOVE for one another through Eshoo M'shkhah (Jesus Christ) is of the utmost importance.

:amen:
 
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Hi everyone,



I thank God for such a forum like this, where all Oriental Orthodox and eastern christians around the world come together.:)

Im Indian Orthodox, we have a few Assyrian christians here in Kerala. Our Church was greatly influenced by both the Syriac Orthodox and Assyrian(nestorian) churches. The latter's influence was prior to 15th century.
Some ancient churches which date to the period in which we had contact with the Persian Church(Assyrian) do have what are known as murals or wall paintings.

Biblical events are carved above the altar of some of our churches. I guess they can be called as Icons.
(But these churches belong with the Orthodox now. Most christians in our state are now Catholics, Protestant or Oriental Orthodox(Syriac and Indian), though most of our ancestors in pre 1500 AD period might have been allegiant to the Assyrian Patriarch or Iraq.)


I had been to one of the few, but newer Assyrian Churches here, of recent. There were no Icons, but there were lots of Crosses and it is very highly venerated. There was a Cross almost everywhere one looked(maybe to make up for the lack of Icons).

But i think that in the pre-1500 period, the churches in Kerala(India) which were spiritually administered by the Assyrian Patriarchs of Iraq, may have had wall paintings and murals, that were venerated.

If it is due to Assyrians accepting veneration of Icons, or if it was due to lack of theological knowledge in the ancient Indian Church, im not sure.


God bless us.
 
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Yes, as someone posted earlier in the thread, there seems to be a lot of closeness nowadays between the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church, especially among the lay people.

There has been an explosion of "ARAMEAN" activism on the internet of recent.

They say both the SOC and ACE are comprised of one racial-cultural-linguistic group known as the Arameans.

And that the name "Assyrian" is a British missionary invention, while "Chaldean" is a Jesuit invention. Both were divisory names, just meant to divide the Aramean people among the various western churches.


They say in reality, they are one people- the Aramean people mentioned in the Bible.

I cant post any links till i have made atleast 50 posts. But google "Aramean", "Aram Nahrin", etc and you will get some of these websites.

Most of them are of Human Rights Activist nature, but it seems to have evolved into a Cultural movement of sort.
 
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The term Aramean was never used by my people, it is a systematic effort by Kurds and Turks to try and divide the Assyrians. They would love to eradicate our name in order to halt any advances by Assyrian Nationalists to reclaim our land in North Iraq.


Evidences of Assyrian survival into Christianity
Most citations in this article have been quoted verbatim because their original sources are not readily available to the average reader, also because Joseph and his minions often dismiss, trivialize or misinterpret, to their liking, all expressions of nationalism or references to the Assyrians before the 19th century. History often pays little attention to none sovereign people dominated by foreign rulers who impose their will, culture, language and power over the vanquished. It's primarily interest is in the exploits of the conquerors and the military conflicts between nations. A people without a sovereign state are seldom acknowledged and are in no position to demand recognition of their national name, culture and heritage from the international community. Because of these reasons we finds limited references to Assyrians outside their own community and the matter became worst when the term Syrian was used as a substitute and religious denominations subdivided them into quarreling sects. Even so Christians of Mesopotamia continued to remember their Assyrian ancestry. This is attested to by Syriac documents during most of the christian centuries. The 13th Century Nestorian, Givargis Arabilaya (georgis of Arbil) on the occasion of the Fast of the Ninevites observed by the Church of the East, Chaldean church, and the Syrian Orthodox church describes the nationality of his people as Assyrians and Babylonians.
"Our lord accept the request (Ba-oota):
of the Babylonians and Assyrians
and that of the leadership of our
distressed and confused Church.
"Our lord accept the request (Ba-oota)
of our poor and destitute country
I praise your Godliness and
ask your forgiveness." (4)
According to Badger "In many Syriac [Assyrian] manuscripts, Mosul is styled as Athur (Assyria) and it is not uncommon practice with ecclesiastical writers of the present day [19th century] to use the same phraseology". (5) Gesenius writes, "In Syriac Church literature 'Athur' (Assyria) is the name of Mosul, on the bank of the Tigris opposite to Nineveh; but it also designates a metropolitan see, including Mosul, Nineveh and other towns." (6) While Mesopotamia was conquered by the Arabs in the seventh century and its name was changed to Iraq as far as Givargis Arabilaya and his people were concerned they were still living in Assyria and Babylon, and were Assyrians and babylonians. Even medieval Arab writers such as Yagout, Aboo alFoda and Ibn Saeed have used the name Athur at times for Mesopotamia and also for Mosul, Nimrod, and Nineveh..

Joseph prefers to ignore these evidences and pretend that he is more qualified to determine the nationality of the contemporary Assyrians. Because of repeated persecutions, fleeing and exiles most records pretraining to the Assyrian history were lost or destroyed. The surviving manuscripts were mostly rescued by the clergies because of their religious value yet even there we finds references to the Assyrian heritage of the Syriac speaking people.In a letter Thimathy I (770-823), patriarch of the Church of the East, to bishop Sarkis of Eilam wrote: "We invited our brethren Khnanishu and Eishu Soveron for the 2nd time as is a tradition but they did not arrive so that also "Assyrians" could honor them." The same Thimathy in another letter to the monks of Mar Marun declares that Assyria, Babylonia, Persia and the other oriental countries such as India and China were all under his jurisdiction (7) .
Here clearly Assyria and babylonia stand for all Mesopotamia and not an ecclesiastic province as Joseph sometimes has argued.The 5th century A.D. Narsai writes that the Magies who visited the christ were of Assyrian origin and "King Herod (of Israel) felt demeaned [by their worship of Christ] therefore in anger he ordered the killing of the infants."(8 ) Other sources have identified the Magies as Assyrians and not Persians or Medes as Joseph contends. In a 'Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch' bulletin an author citing ancient sources contends that twelve Assyrian wise men went to Urhoy/Urfa/Edessa when they had observed the shining star and from there three of them continued to Bethlehem while the rest returned home. The three mentioned in the Bible are Malkon, Kaspar, and Baghdassar. Their names seem to be corrupted form of the Assyrian Makoona (little king), Keespa (treasure) and Bel-shar-esur (Bel-protects the king).(9)Isho-Yahabh the head of the Church of the East (644-658) in a letter to Mar Gabriel, the Metropolitan Bishop of Beth Laphat, Mar hormizd and Mar Marmeh wrote:
. " This is how their faith was, as is mine, and continues to be as strong as ever regardless of whether or not it seems so to others. The best example of such faith is found among those living in central Athur (Assyria) and the surrounding places. A heritage of good manners, clear mind and the teaching of the word of God have contributed to the growth of this blessedness ."(10)

Central Athur included not only the city of Mosul, Nineveh but also Arbil, Kirkuk and other towns and villages which were then entirely populated by the Christian Assyrians and still live there. Joseph's objection to Fred Aprim identifying them as Assyrian is clearly unreasonable.In another letter Yeshu Yahab, to Raban Sargis of Beit Garmi [north of Arbil] wrote that Bar Bkhira a christian friend of the Prophet Mohammed had seen visions of Islamic Arabs invading "Assyria" and "Babylon" long before it happened. Here Yeshu Yahab clearly considers Assyria the region north of Babylon.
The tenth century writer Amanoeil Bar Shaharee wrote:
" The twin cities of the Sleleucia ( Salek) and Ctisphoon where the patriarchs of the Church of the East resided until 8th century were not only the capital cities of the Persians (Sassanian) also the ecclesiastical centers of the Assyrians." The twin cities were located near Baghdad on the border between Iran and Iraq. (11)

"Sleewa Ibn Yohanna", a Nestorian author of the early part of the 14 th century describes the duties of the Patriarch of the church of the East (Nestorian) after its independence from the church of Antioch consisted of "the administration of the affairs of the flock, the ordination of the Heads in the Eastern Borders, in Athur (Assyria), Media and Persia: all these sees shall be subject to him, shall submit to his authority, listen to his orders and his bidding."(12) The above is another example of Mesopotamia being identified as Assyria by the Syriac writers of various centuries. These are hard facts which are impossible to dispute.
 
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