1Cor3:10-15

[MrJim]

1Cor3

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

...it is a purgatorial fire of sorts...what else could it be?

 

[brother daniel]

1Cor3

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

...it is a purgatorial fire of sorts...what else could it be?

It could be this.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

The cross of Christ, a comforting admonition: Concerning the suffering, cross and persecution of the saints for the sake of the word of God and his testimony by Menno Simons

http://gameo.org/index.asp?content=http://gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/M37856.html

"Why is it that the just (or the saint) must suffer at all times?" The Christian answer will always have an eschatological if not a downright apocalyptic aspect. It is the philosophy of history of the Christian, or (from another angle) his dynamic theology of salvation.
In general, it may be said that the idea of the suffering church (or the church under the Cross) is a part of the very core of the Anabaptist genius, without which the entire problem of evangelical Anabaptism cannot be understood nor can it be properly demarcated against related Christian movements such as Pietism and Spiritualism.

This is what unites me with the first Anabaptists as we who serve God and follow Christ enter into GREAT TRIBULATION befor the coming again of our Lord Jesus.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

...it is a purgatorial fire of sorts...what else could it be?

Mr Jim, I'm pretty sure it's figurative language. There's no real fire, it's just Paul's way of saying that those things we waste time on, maybe like this website, are going to be worthless to us, like ashes are worthless to a builder. No one builds anything with ashes, so whatever we waste our time on will be useless to us in heaven.

I have a friend who is a gemologist and he says that most gemstone sold today are heat-treated to bring up their color and luster. Most of the beautiful sapphires and rubies are less colorful when they are mined, but when they are heated, beautiful deep colors develop. And everyone knows gold and silver are refined by heat.

I think this passage is saying that the things we do will either turn out to be worthless like ashes, or they will turn out to be beautiful and valuable when they are refined by God according to his will.

I don't think it has anything to do with our sufferings or the End Times. It seems to have more to do with the choices we make every day.

 

[MrJim]

Mr Jim, I'm pretty sure it's figurative language. There's no real fire, it's just Paul's way of saying that those things we waste time on, maybe like this website, are going to be worthless to us, like ashes are worthless to a builder. No one builds anything with ashes, so whatever we waste our time on will be useless to us in heaven.

I have a friend who is a gemologist and he says that most gemstone sold today are heat-treated to bring up their color and luster. Most of the beautiful sapphires and rubies are less colorful when they are mined, but when they are heated, beautiful deep colors develop. And everyone knows gold and silver are refined by heat.

I think this passage is saying that the things we do will either turn out to be worthless like ashes, or they will turn out to be beautiful and valuable when they are refined by God according to his will.

I don't think it has anything to do with our sufferings or the End Times. It seems to have more to do with the choices we make every day.

Welcome RenewedbyFaith,

It seems we often use literal & figurative as it suits us best, who is to say when a passage is either?

In any event, do you suppose the "loss" is simply the loss of reward?

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

The loss of reward, the loss of esteem, the loss of satisfation, the loss of pride. There are many losses I could name that would go with this passage.

I think the loss of pride is probably the big one. We think we are doing such great things for the Lord when really we often are doing them for our own profit. We take pride on our homes, our cars, our children and so on.

When everything we do "passes through the fire" and we see what's left, I think that pride is going to be blown away. I think we will more than ever see why we need a savior. I think even the best of us will have great heaps of ashes and very small piles of gold and gems. I think God will do this to knock down our pride and make us humble enough to understand why He had to die on the cross for us.

The purging is of our earthly endeavors, not of our sins. I don't even seen sins mentioned in this passage. And if I'm not mistaken, Catholicism believes that purgatory is about purging our sins or our souls or something like that through personal bodily and emotional suffering. This passage doesn't talk about personal bodily and emotional suffering.

Thanks for the welcome! I just found the place. Is the Anabaptist area always so unpopulated?

 

[MrJim]

Thanks for the welcome! I just found the place. Is the Anabaptist area always so unpopulated?

Just like in the real world there are not many anabaptists. We used to be lumped in with the baptists--it was officially "Baptist/Anabaptist" forum...it was sort of an odd set up.

 

[MrJim]

The loss of reward, the loss of esteem, the loss of satisfation, the loss of pride. There are many losses I could name that would go with this passage.

I think the loss of pride is probably the big one. We think we are doing such great things for the Lord when really we often are doing them for our own profit. We take pride on our homes, our cars, our children and so on.

When everything we do "passes through the fire" and we see what's left, I think that pride is going to be blown away. I think we will more than ever see why we need a savior. I think even the best of us will have great heaps of ashes and very small piles of gold and gems. I think God will do this to knock down our pride and make us humble enough to understand why He had to die on the cross for us.

The purging is of our earthly endeavors, not of our sins. I don't even seen sins mentioned in this passage. And if I'm not mistaken, Catholicism believes that purgatory is about purging our sins or our souls or something like that through personal bodily and emotional suffering. This passage doesn't talk about personal bodily and emotional suffering.

But it is still a purging...a cleansing of sorts...

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Not a cleansing so much...we are already cleansed by grace through faith. There's nothing left to clean.

More of a reckoning, a reveal of what we did with ourselves and of how much we need Him.

 

[MrJim]

Not a cleansing so much...we are already cleansed by grace through faith. There's nothing left to clean.

More of a reckoning, a reveal of what we did with ourselves and of how much we need Him.

...cool

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Ya, it surprised me at first to think of it that way, but now it's oddly comforting. I'm not going to be burdened through eternity with the stuff I did wrong. It'a all going to be burned away and all that will really remain is my relationship with God. Puts a different perspective on life, doesn't it?

Goes along with Paul's statement from 1 Corinthians 13:
"8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

Paul is constantly telling us that the silly things we pursue and worry about not having aren't important at all. The only thinngs that are worth caring deeply about are faith, hope and love, everything else is going to vanish away.

There must be a dozen places where Paul says the same thing, and he's the guy who got to see heaven, so I think it's probably a good idea to trust him about what heaven is really like.

 

[MrJim]

Ya, it surprised me at first to think of it that way, but now it's oddly comforting. I'm not going to be burdened through eternity with the stuff I did wrong. It'a all going to be burned away and all that will really remain is my relationship with God. Puts a different perspective on life, doesn't it?

The RC view of purgatory isn't so different though in that they teach the purging is simply a final step before entering heaven, sorta like this reckoning of deeds...they aren't carrying their past wrongs on for eternity either.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

The RC view of purgatory isn't so different though in that they teach the purging is simply a final step before entering heaven, sorta like this reckoning of deeds...they aren't carrying their past wrongs on for eternity either.

Hmm...there is a difference between purging sins as a final step in becoming worthy of heaven and revealing the value of earthly works and the need for grace, wouldn't you say?

One depends on personal suffering to make them worthy and the other recognizes that grace is the only way to become worthy of heaven.

It's interesting that you seem to be trying to incorporate a belief in purgatory into your Anabaptist faith. Are you considering conversion to Catholicism, or are you trying to make your Anabaptist experience meld more with Catholic tradition?

 

[MrJim]

Hmm...there is a difference between purging sins as a final step in becoming worthy of heaven and revealing the value of earthly works and the need for grace, wouldn't you say?

One depends on personal suffering to make them worthy and the other recognizes that grace is the only way to become worthy of heaven.

It's interesting that you seem to be trying to incorporate a belief in purgatory into your Anabaptist faith. Are you considering conversion to Catholicism, or are you trying to make your Anabaptist experience meld more with Catholic tradition?

Maybe just trying to see a bigger picture...

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

That's cool.

 

[MrJim]

That's cool.

I think it's something of the "emerging" mindset to not put out the "Do Not Cross" barrier tape and actually examine the teaching and history of other parts of Christ's body.

There's a wise gal around that has a line saying "things that are labeled get put on a shelf" instead of just labeling something "Roman Catholic" and shelving it I want to see what it is about. Same goes for other traditions within the body instead of just limiting myself to the "anabaptist" or "mennonite" or "evangelical" parts of the body.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Sounds like a good idea. Break with denominational traditons and look for the truths of other traditions.