Questions About The Sodom And Gomorrah Situation

[Space]

In the scriptures, did God know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah before he destroyed those cities?

Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Genesis 18:20-21 (New International Version)

Why would God need to go down to those cities to see how bad things were? Doesn't God know everything?

Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?
Genesis 18:17 (New International Version)

The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
Genesis 19:12-14 (New International Version)

You could say that God already knew what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah as he had asked if he should hide from Abraham what he was about to do. But when he was talking to Lot, we see that the outcry against its people was so great and that's the reason why God had destroyed those cities. Not because he already knew what was going on, in those places, before he destroyed them or because he already planned to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the outcry against its people.

Also, the two men who came to Lot told Lot that they were going to destroy the place and had said that, because the outcry against its people was so great, the LORD had sent them to destroy it. Right after this, Lot told his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters, that the LORD was going to destroy the city. Would that mean that the LORD and those two men, who came to Lot, are the same? If so, then how so? Wasn't Jesus Christ the only human, who is God?

BTW, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because the situation does seem questionable and because I am not straight and this issue has been attributed to homosexuality, which is why it bothers me to read about it. I also believe that it wasn't the right move to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. I think that, with faith, whoever it was who was crying out against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, could've prayed to the LORD for help with getting things worked out without those cities being destroyed and prevented that from happening.

 

[BelindaP]

First of all, you have to realize that there weren't even 10 righteous people in those two cities. That included Lot, his wife, and their two daughters. That would leave a maximum of five other righteous people. For that reason alone, the cities deserved to be destroyed.

The Bible does not record it, but I would be surprised if God did not rescue any other righteous people who may have been there. We get Lot's story because he almost certainly shared it with Abraham after the events. But I digress...

The cities were beyond repair. No amount of faith could save those cities. The life expectancy of a righteous man was generally short there. The only reason Lot was left alone was because 1) he was rich, 2) he was personal friends with the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah, and 3) people knew what Abraham would do if Lot were harmed.

The grievous outcry that God had heard would have been from the blood of those who were murdered in the cities. (cf. Genesis where Abel's blood cried out to God from the ground where it was spilled.) While God knew full well what was going on, the two who were with him (presumably angels) would not have known.

It is one of God's laws that a man could not be executed without the testimony of two witnesses. That is why He brought two angels with Him to serve as witnesses to the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah. That is also why they (and not God) entered into the city alone.

The sin of homosexuality alone was not what caused the cities to be destroyed by God. It was the complete depravity of the people. The fact that two innocent visitors could not spend the night in the city square (which was customary in those days) without the fear of being raped and murdered showed just how low Sodom and Gomorrah had sunk. It didn't matter that it was homosexual rape. It could just as easily been two angels in female form, and the same thing would have happened.

[I think there is a lesson there for those of us who supposedly live in a Christian nation and yet we cannot safely spend a night alone in virtually any city square anymore. But I digress again.]

In biblical times, executions were carried out by the witnesses casting the first stones, as it were. The angels were witnesses, and God empowered them to destroy the cities. That is why it was said that the angels destroyed the cities and that the Lord destroyed the cities.

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

[Space]

Hello BelindaP,

I have some things I'd like to add to what you said...

The cities were beyond repair. No amount of faith could save those cities.

I respectfully disagree. I don't understand how God himself couldn't have saved those cities. But instead, the Bible says he destroyed them.

The grievous outcry that God had heard would have been from the blood of those who were murdered in the cities. (cf. Genesis where Abel's blood cried out to God from the ground where it was spilled.) While God knew full well what was going on, the two who were with him (presumably angels) would not have known.

I see!

Wouldn't that explain why those people became so evil? Because, like Cain, they weren't accepted? Doesn't Christ say that whoever comes to him, he will never drive away (like the scriptures say that God did to Cain in the Old Testament)?

Like Cain, were the people of Sodom and Gomorrah expected to master their sin, which is impossible without God's help?

The punishment of my people is greater than that of Sodom, which was overthrown in a moment without a hand turned to help her.
Lamentations 4:6 (New International Version)

Like I said, God could've saved Sodom, but the Bible says he destroyed the place.

Lastly, did God know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah before its victims were murdered (or the outcry of its victims)?

 

[dvd_holc]

In the scriptures, did God know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah before he destroyed those cities?

Why would God need to go down to those cities to see how bad things were? Doesn't God know everything?

You could say that God already knew what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah as he had asked if he should hide from Abraham what he was about to do. But when he was talking to Lot, we see that the outcry against its people was so great and that's the reason why God had destroyed those cities. Not because he already knew what was going on, in those places, before he destroyed them or because he already planned to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the outcry against its people.

Also, the two men who came to Lot told Lot that they were going to destroy the place and had said that, because the outcry against its people was so great, the LORD had sent them to destroy it. Right after this, Lot told his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters, that the LORD was going to destroy the city. Would that mean that the LORD and those two men, who came to Lot, are the same? If so, then how so? Wasn't Jesus Christ the only human, who is God?

BTW, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because the situation does seem questionable and because I am not straight and this issue has been attributed to homosexuality, which is why it bothers me to read about it. I also believe that it wasn't the right move to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. I think that, with faith, whoever it was who was crying out against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, could've prayed to the LORD for help with getting things worked out without those cities being destroyed and prevented that from happening.

Yes, God knew. God also lets us do what we want because He does not want puppets but image bearers of God. God going down to the towns is a picture of God searching the hearts and deeds of the towns. God also choose to have mercy on the towns until the day of destruction for the town so that His way, power, and Name might be known.

So here is the reason...Humanity has fallen, but God choose to work within the creation to re-establish the order and harmony of the garden. God did this by the covenants. Through the covenants the created order would be restored, there had to be atonement privilege within in it. So where is it?

It is in the Abrahamic covenant found in Genesis 15. God promised that the Torch would pay the price for the failure for Abraham and the seed to live faithfully to God’s purpose. I will quickly summarize that: this covenant in Gen 15 was always between a great and a less party. It had to be two. Abraham does not walk it. The Father and Messiah do. The greater always stated the conditions. Both stack their lives on their participation in the oath and the way it was staked was by walking the path. The greater would walk first. The lesser would walk second. The great was a smoking furnace…which is the Father. The picture is a camp fire with a pot on it that smokes…fire was always the presence of God…I don’t quit know what to say of the pot…but often God is seen as the Refiner of the people. Likewise the smoke was always linked to the glory of the Lord. The second was a flaming torch…again fire was God the Messiah. It appeared to be one stick with a flame…so then Messiah in a lesser power of authority walking the path…which was what Jesus did in His walk during the first century. Because we broke the covenant…Torch had to die. Again this same thing but with a different twist occurred with Isaac…

You can see how the covenant works when look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah…God knows of their wickedness and sends out Jesus (and the Holy Spirit representative of the third messenger and in fulfillment of the requirement of two to kill) to search out the people. There is something that can be derived from the theological of this coded language. I am not absolutely sure of the theological meaning of 50, 40, 30, and 20…but 10 has a couple of things that I will point out…10 is the number of people required for a worship service…also, the root of covenant had the numeric value of 10. Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the two angels searched for 10 men who believed in their heart in God.

So then, God is pointing out…this is how the covenant works and how I justify and don’t justify people. We also find the usage of the Torch today, in the Jewish observance of Passover the household is search with a candle because God said on Passover He would search with the Torch.

Also, the whole town assemblied to have sex with the angels. Did sex have any significance? Sex was always seen as the marriage of the participants. On Mount Sinai God married Israel. They had the wedding vows and marriage obligations...and other things. It was God who was the groom and Israel as the bride. When these men came to have sex with the angels, they were (respersenting all the wicked humans) saying that we are wicked and we will be the Groom. But this is not how it is. God is the Groom, and we are the bride...Jesus is the Husband to be, and the faithful are His betrothed.

Now, there are other passages about Sodom and Gormorrah. But homosexuality is a sin like all the rest. Homosexuals are deserving of death as we all are. But what seperates the bride from the sinner is that we return to God in faith to be reformed into the image of Jesus that we might live the way God created us for.

 

[Space]

Yes, God knew. God also lets us do what we want because He does not want puppets but image bearers of God.

What if your children were possessed by demons and because of this they were wicked in every which way possible and were enjoying being that way? Are you just gonna continue to allow them to be that way because they enjoy it or are you gonna cast the demons out of them?

Why were the people of Sodom and Gomorrah the way they were? Were they created evil or did Satan get in them and start messing those people up? Are people created with the desire not to repent or is it shoved down their throat by Satan? Or are there reasons why people don't want to repent that (something that happened to them that made it impossible for them to have any desire to serve God)?

It's better to be a puppet of God than a puppet of Satan.

 

[Rafael]

In the scriptures, did God know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah before he destroyed those cities?



Why would God need to go down to those cities to see how bad things were? Doesn't God know everything?

Once again, God seems to get restricted by us in all things. Why can't God enjoy His own "being" and go see for HImself in person. Don't we sometimes know what to expect but like to go and experience first hand?
Yet our expectations of Him are that He wastes His time enjoying His own creation, loving, going and doing, as we or just being who He is.

You could say that God already knew what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah as he had asked if he should hide from Abraham what he was about to do. But when he was talking to Lot, we see that the outcry against its people was so great and that's the reason why God had destroyed those cities. Not because he already knew what was going on, in those places, before he destroyed them or because he already planned to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the outcry against its people.

Also, the two men who came to Lot told Lot that they were going to destroy the place and had said that, because the outcry against its people was so great, the LORD had sent them to destroy it. Right after this, Lot told his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters, that the LORD was going to destroy the city. Would that mean that the LORD and those two men, who came to Lot, are the same? If so, then how so? Wasn't Jesus Christ the only human, who is God?

BTW, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because the situation does seem questionable and because I am not straight and this issue has been attributed to homosexuality, which is why it bothers me to read about it. I also believe that it wasn't the right move to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. I think that, with faith, whoever it was who was crying out against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, could've prayed to the LORD for help with getting things worked out without those cities being destroyed and prevented that from happening.

More restrictions on Him who we cannot or should not limit. We do not know the mind of God, and it is especially difficult to express only with words. Life says so much more as a language that should be contemplated for each day given.
Just because God knows the future of those cauhgt in time does not mean He must act or that He even has to examine it. We do not know what such power is like, and when we are ignorant of such power, it is especially wrong to judge God without knowing anything about it but our own temporal and fallen state of being.

 

[Space]

Once again, God seems to get restricted by us in all things. Why can't God enjoy His own "being" and go see for HImself in person. Don't we sometimes know what to expect but like to go and experience first hand?

But in the Bible he didn't go down to Sodom and Gomorrah. He sent his angels to do his dirty work for him. Quite similar to the ways of men, when they are in power and send troops over to foreign countries to bomb them to smithereens because they can't find a peaceful way to deal with the situation. The thing is, God's ways are different from man's ways and he can find a peaceful way to deal with the situation!

God could've saved Sodom and Gomorrah... but the fact is, the Bible tells us that he chose to destroy those cities. That's what bothers me the most about that story.

 

[BelindaP]

How could He have saved Sodom and Gomorrah, short of transplanting new brains into all of their citizens?

There are some things that God cannot do. One of those is to save a person who does not want to be saved. Doing so would violate His will by taking away our free will.

 

[prophecystudent]

But in the Bible he didn't go down to Sodom and Gomorrah. He sent his angels to do his dirty work for him. Quite similar to the ways of men, when they are in power and send troops over to foreign countries to bomb them to smithereens because they can't find a peaceful way to deal with the situation. The thing is, God's ways are different from man's ways and he can find a peaceful way to deal with the situation!

God could've saved Sodom and Gomorrah... but the fact is, the Bible tells us that he chose to destroy those cities. That's what bothers me the most about that story.

I think you are missing an important point. That being that God created man and gave him free will. The people in Sodom were living a lifestyle they CHOSE to live. It does not matter why they chose that lifestyle.

I have heard such situation described before. The explanation is to consider the evil in Sodom as we consider cancer in the human body. The only "cure" is to destroy the cancer. In the case of Sodom, the pollution was so complete that the only solution was to destroy that pollution at its source.

When the end time comes God will completely destroy heaven and earth. Let me explain something about "heaven". There are three heavens to which the bible refers. One is the immediate area around the earth, the atmosphere as it were. The second is the celestial heaven where all those stars, galaxies, etc are. The third heaven is where God, Christ, and all those angels that didn't desert and go with Satan are today.

God will destroy and regenerate the first two heavens.

His purpose, according to my studies, is to eliminate the corruption of evil brought on by Satan thru the generations. The very atmosphere is polluted by his evil and must be destroyed.

God could have turned all those evil folks in Sodom into robots who did no evil but He respects humans right to make their own choices. They chose their lifestyle and paid the price.

Regarding our children being demon possessed and doing evil things, I would use every means at my disposal to save them. That would include invoking God's love for me and those children in asking Him for His help. If He chose not to cast out those demons then, ultimately, those children would be held to account for their actions.

However, your statements assume that all evil behavior comes from demon possession. Not true. Evil behavior generally comes from a "self-centered" attitude that says, "I will do what I want to do".

Just take a look at the world condition today. Start with porno, drug abuse, violence, rape, plunder, etc. The list goes on. When you get to the bottom of it, the huge majority of it is caused by personal choice on the part of the perpetrator, not demon possession.

Again, that old problem of free will comes into play.

Fred

 

[rocklife]

In the scriptures, did God know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah before he destroyed those cities?

he was hearing reports so to speak

Why would God need to go down to those cities to see how bad things were? Doesn't God know everything?

I think for His judgment to truly be 100% just for His own purposes, He is not only hearing from the victims and maybe his angels, but He is going to personally experience the city for Himself. That is my observation.

You could say that God already knew what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah as he had asked if he should hide from Abraham what he was about to do. But when he was talking to Lot, we see that the outcry against its people was so great and that's the reason why God had destroyed those cities. Not because he already knew what was going on, in those places, before he destroyed them or because he already planned to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the outcry against its people.

Also, the two men who came to Lot told Lot that they were going to destroy the place and had said that, because the outcry against its people was so great, the LORD had sent them to destroy it. Right after this, Lot told his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters, that the LORD was going to destroy the city. Would that mean that the LORD and those two men, who came to Lot, are the same? If so, then how so? Wasn't Jesus Christ the only human, who is God?

God is a God of Spirit, I believe sometimes when it seems like the Bible is saying it is God, it can also be anyone with God's spirit, that can be said to be from God. Be careful not to try to take the Bible too literally, sometimes other bible verses in other parts give a different perspective, have to keep in bible study.

BTW, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because the situation does seem questionable and because I am not straight and this issue has been attributed to homosexuality, which is why it bothers me to read about it.

If you read the account of what they try to do with the Lord and the men and Lot that night, they were not only trying to have homosexual sex, they were also forcing them to have sex. It isn't just simply homosexual sex. Rape is also very serious, even heterosexual rape is condemned in the Old Testament, sometimes mercy is given, sometimes there are severe consequences, but forcing ourselves on others sexually is obviously not right to anybody, no matter male or female.

I also believe that it wasn't the right move to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. I think that, with faith, whoever it was who was crying out against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, could've prayed to the LORD for help with getting things worked out without those cities being destroyed and prevented that from happening.

God could only find Lot and some of his family as righteous people, not any more. I hope you will look beyond the homosexual issue, and remember that rape was part of the behavior going on too. Maybe God saw in them what we have seen glimpses of sometimes, when a serial killer is found, sometimes they smirk at the victim's family and have no remorse. Maybe God saw the whole city was too much enjoying their evil to care.

Keep searching, these are very thoughtful questions, but you need to be able to see past your own comfort level and try to see the bigger picture, and keep studying and seeking what is right and true

 

[Space]

Check these verses out...

"I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.
Job 42:2 (New International Version)

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Matthew 17:20 (New International Version)

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:26 (New International Version)

" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."
Mark 9:23 (New International Version)

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
Mark 10:27 (New International Version)

"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
Mark 14:36 (New International Version)

For nothing is impossible with God."
Luke 1:37 (New International Version)

Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
Luke 18:27 (New International Version)

I think those verses make it very clear that God can do anything.

 

[rocklife]

Yes, Space, but He has His own plans and ways of doing things. It is not good to try and take out bible verses and put them back together to make them say what you want them to say.

Unfortunately many church leaders do the same thing. don't copy their bad examples, please (for your own good). Jesus warns many church leaders are just pretenders too (also called hypocrits).

 

[Beanieboy]

I can't understand how he couldn't find 10 good men.

If you went into a more violent part of the US, say, New York or Detroit, you could still easily find someone who works at a shelter, a soup kitchen, etc.
In high school, where a group are ganging up on someone, there is always someone that stands up against the group.

And what about children? Were all of the children evil as well?

 

[Beanieboy]

How could He have saved Sodom and Gomorrah, short of transplanting new brains into all of their citizens?

There are some things that God cannot do. One of those is to save a person who does not want to be saved. Doing so would violate His will by taking away our free will.

Do you believe that God cannot change the hearts of man?

Saul was killing christians, you know, before his huge transformation.

 

[BelindaP]

If Paul had adamantly refused, he could not have been saved. The fact was that he was a very devout man. His passions were misdirected.

God changed the direction of his passions.

 

[rocklife]

Beanieboy, this isn't a discussion/debate forum

 

[BelindaP]

Let's look at it this way. The U.S. hasn't sunk to the level of depravity that Sodom and Gomorrah had. God destroyed the earth with a flood when the people sank to that level the first time. Thereafter, He has surgically removed the cancers, as it were.

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He also ordered the Israelites to exterminate the Canaanites, because they had sunk to such a low level.

When the entire earth has again descended to the level of Sodom and Gomorrah, Jesus will return and destroy the evil-doers once and for all.

 

[Space]

Yes, Space, but He has His own plans and ways of doing things. It is not good to try and take out bible verses and put them back together to make them say what you want them to say.

Unfortunately many church leaders do the same thing. don't copy their bad examples, please (for your own good). Jesus warns many church leaders are just pretenders too (also called hypocrits).

I heard that the church decided which manuscripts to put in the Bible and which manuscripts to leave out of it.

 

[rocklife]

I heard that the church decided which manuscripts to put in the Bible and which manuscripts to leave out of it.

did you know there are several definitions of church? The New Testament desribes the church as a spiritual body of Jesus, not the same thing as a religious organization.

and another point, I don't know the analysis of how the bible came to be and who put it all together. I have studied it a little bit. I pray and follow Jesus as much as I can. There are warnings in the end of the bible saying if anyone is messing up His Scriptures, taking out things or adding, they will get punishments added and their share of the tree of life taken away. So, I hope everyone is careful when meditating on God's words.

I believe Bible reading is very important, but we need to be careful how we are reading, and our motives. The ones who led Jesus to the mock trial and the cross had read the Bible, but still got the message all wrong.

Jesus saves

 

[rocklife]

I heard that the church decided which manuscripts to put in the Bible and which manuscripts to leave out of it.

Space, just to remind you though, my point is don't take things out of context and come to a conclusion that they mean this and this and that. You need to keep things in context, and also seek to understand what is really the Truth trying to come out of what is being said. Jesus says we need the Holy Spirit and the right spirit, a humble seeking Truth spirit, or else we won't understand what God is really saying.