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I'm a Primitive Baptist

Lavola

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UMP said:
Yes,
I see what you mean.
The question is, does perception determine reality?
The Primitive Baptist would answer that question in the negative, for the spirit quickens as it pleases, kind of like the wind :) We believe that the Holy Spirit effectually calls, regenerates and sanctifies all the elect of God. (John 6:37; 2 Timothy 1:9; Jude 1)

"Knowledge" of this regeneration or gracious condition is "learned" through the gospel.
I guess that ones positive responce to the preached gospel would not be the actual means of salvation (for the Primitive Baptist) but bringing the knowledge of such to God's elect.
Thanks for correcting me.
I am glad to see we are on the same page. Your reference to "the positive response to the preached gospel" is what some Primitive Baptists call "gospel salvation" or "temporal salvation". Do you sort of see it that way or are you more of a Calvinistic persuasion that blends eternal salvation with gospel salvation together by saying you can't have one without the other?
 
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UMP

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Lavola said:
What is your understanding of what Primitive Baptists call "conditional time salvation"?

Now you're REALLY opening up a can O worms! :)
I believe that "conditional time salvation" is an error. As our preacher says, "time salvation" to some degree WILL occur in the elect child of God during his or her life.
Saying that someone exposed to the true gospel who turns away from it is simply "missing some blessings" here in time, is not accurate.
Here is one of the best things I've read denouncing the subject:

http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/ejp/conditional.html
 
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Lavola

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From your reply you sound like you are with the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists. They denounce conditional time salvation as in your linked article upon the subject. Mr. Poole has written many articles for the Remant and was excommunicated from the Moderate Primitive Baptists years ago for preaching the very things contained in that article.

According to the information I have collected, the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists make up less than 10% of all Primitive Baptists.

Moderate Primitive Baptists adhere strongly to conditional time salvation while Absolute Predestianarian Primitive Baptists denounce it. A brief example would be that Moderates would make a distinction between the new birth and water baptism. They would label the new birth as eternal salvation and they would label water baptism as conditional time salvation. They argue that man’s obedience is not required for the new birth and is required for water baptism. The Absolute Predestinarian would label the new birth and water baptism as one salvation all by the sovereign grace of God.

Since I am new to this forum the rules require that I have 15 post before I can give you a link to another web-page. The following is from an excellent site describing the Primitive Baptists and their distinctions.

Size of Group:
In lacking a national headquarters or organizational structure, it becomes difficult to accurately measure total membership. Also, membership is defined by adult baptized believers, so children do not factor into the membership figures or estimates.

The Primitive Baptist faith is generally divided into three distinct divisions:

Absolute Predestinarians : "Fifty-one associations have been located. There a re approximately 10 churches to each association, but the average is only about 17 members per church. Thus, a rough estimate of Absoluters would be approximately 8,500, with several hundred in independent churches."

Moderates : "No recent census of Primitive Baptists has been made. In the 1970's, 150 Moderate associations were located. They vary in size from two churches to more than 20. The average size is seven. The average church has fewer than 50 members, all baptized. On that basis, there are more than 50,000 members, not including the membership of almost five hundred churches of the Moderate position which are not affiliated with any associations. Those churches would add another 25,000."

Progressives : "In 1992 there were 122 churches and 133 ministers reported."

Sydney Ahlstrom suggests that the Primitive Baptist membership in the United States doubled between the years of 1846 and 1890 (68,000 to 121,000). However, membership has declined sharply and a 1990 estimate by the Glenmary Research Center places the US membership at 49,234 members with 1,159 churches in activity. Worldwide estimates for 1993 claim 72,000 members. Yet, it is important to note that this estimate comes with it a smaller estimate for total number of churches worldwide than Ahlstrom estimates for the US alone. It is also important to note that a third source lists 1,347 Primitive Baptist churches in the US in 1983. These varying numbers at once evidence the difficulty in estimating the size of this faith, but at the same time bracket estimates within a reasonable range.

Absolute Predestinarians and Progressives
The vast majority of Primitive Baptists are described as Moderates and thus discussions referring to Primitive Baptists are more specifically about Moderates. However, two other groups have emerged and gained a small foothold under the Primitive Baptist umbrella.


The first are the Absolute Predestinarians. This group is the smallest of the three divisions. Absolute Predestinarians believe "that God decreed in himself from all eternity all things that will come to pass from the greatest to the smallest event." Going one step further than the belief of election, this notion of predestination asserts that not only are the saved pre-selcted, but so is every event to occur in the line of time.

The other division is called Progressives. This group accepts the general doctrinal beliefs of the Moderates, but differ greatly with respect to innovation in congregational life. Progressives argue for "youth fellowships and Bible study classes, men's brotherhoods and women's societies, vacation Bible schools, and youth camps." A problem faced by Moderates is the ban on evangelism and the adverse effect it has on recruitment and sustainment of congregation size. Progressive ideals strive to eliminate the closed aspect of the faith as well as provide activities for children who are at present alienated due to the membership structure. This idea is still dismissed by Moderates with the statement: "the idea that it is the role of the church to entertain is absolutely alien to all that is scriptural.

 
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Lavola

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From your previous posts, it seems to me that your understanding of conditional time salvation is quite different from the Moderate Primitive Baptists. Again, I believe the example of water baptism is what really helps to define the term conditional time salvation for the Moderates.

Do you believe that water baptism is optional and that a child of God's choice or will is involed in such an act? or is it not optional?

Do you believe that water baptism has any bearing on eternity salvation? or is it for the hear and now [time or temporal]

Do you believe that water baptism has a saving effect. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

1) The Moderate Primitive Baptists argue that a born again child of God exercises a will and has a choice or option whether they follow the Lord in baptism.

2) They would say that water baptism is for this life only and therefore has its effects and benefits here and now and not for hear after. Temporal or Time

3) Moderates say that water baptism brings a deliverace or salvation to the born again elect's conscience and like the eunuch of old goes on his way rejoicing.

Water baptism is 1) Conditional 2) Time 3) Salvation

Do you find anything wrong with definining water baptism that way?

I believe the definition comes much closer defining Moderate Primitive Baptists meaning of conditional time salvation than the one you previous gave. The article you linked gave a distorted view of what Moderates define as conditional time salvation.

Example: One group believes predestination means the act of God causing sin and wants no part of such a belief. Another group defines predestination as God predestinating his children to be conformed to the image of his son and they love the doctrine of predestination. How can the two groups ever come together as long as their definitions differ?

Perhaps you may want to ask a number of Moderate Primitive Baptists what their definition of conditional time salvation really is and see if it matches your definition. If the two definitions are the same, then there is a real difference of opinion. If the two definitions are different, then the difference of opinion could possibly be in the definition itself. Does this make any sense?

Haven't heard from you for a while...hope you are ok.
 
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mlqurgw

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From your previous posts, it seems to me that your understanding of conditional time salvation is quite different from the Moderate Primitive Baptists. Again, I believe the example of water baptism is what really helps to define the term conditional time salvation for the Moderates.

Do you believe that water baptism is optional and that a child of God's choice or will is involed in such an act? or is it not optional?

Do you believe that water baptism has any bearing on eternity salvation? or is it for the hear and now [time or temporal]

Do you believe that water baptism has a saving effect. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

1) The Moderate Primitive Baptists argue that a born again child of God exercises a will and has a choice or option whether they follow the Lord in baptism.

2) They would say that water baptism is for this life only and therefore has its effects and benefits here and now and not for hear after. Temporal or Time

3) Moderates say that water baptism brings a deliverace or salvation to the born again elect's conscience and like the eunuch of old goes on his way rejoicing.

Water baptism is 1) Conditional 2) Time 3) Salvation

Do you find anything wrong with definining water baptism that way?

I believe the definition comes much closer defining Moderate Primitive Baptists meaning of conditional time salvation than the one you previous gave. The article you linked gave a distorted view of what Moderates define as conditional time salvation.

Example: One group believes predestination means the act of God causing sin and wants no part of such a belief. Another group defines predestination as God predestinating his children to be conformed to the image of his son and they love the doctrine of predestination. How can the two groups ever come together as long as their definitions differ?

Perhaps you may want to ask a number of Moderate Primitive Baptists what their definition of conditional time salvation really is and see if it matches your definition. If the two definitions are the same, then there is a real difference of opinion. If the two definitions are different, then the difference of opinion could possibly be in the definition itself. Does this make any sense?

Haven't heard from you for a while...hope you are ok.
I haven't been among the Old Schol Baptists for several years but for probably the first 25 or 30 years of my life I was among them. One thing that strikes me by your posts is that it is far more complicated than the issue of baptism. I knew many who didn't believe in the new birth and some who were progressives. Time salvation, as far as I remember, was an issue of experience. IIRC, most Old School Baptists don't believe in assurance but only a hope and those who experience faith in time are saved in time but yet may not be one of the elect. That is the way I always understood it and also what most of those I had contact with thought. I still have several family members who are Old School Baptist elders, perhaps I will give one of them a call and see if I am remembering things correctly.
 
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Lavola

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If you use the Moderates definition of conditional time salvation, it is not complicated at all. UMP's pastor, L. Bradley described conditional time salvation as baptism in his pamphlet What Do Primitive Baptist Believe (Answers to Frequently Asked Questions). Question 27 and its answer is a good example of conditional time salvation.
...........................................................................
27. Do you call upon men to repent and believe?

A: Yes, the burdened sinner ought to repent and believe the truth. The one who thus repents, believes, and is baptized is going to be saved from the distress he feels and from much error and confusion (Mark 16:16). The salvation involved here is not that which takes a man to Heaven, but that which saves his life here in the world (Acts 2:40).
..........................................................................
In the pamphlet L. Bradley describes the salvation that comes by repentance, belief and baptism as a temporal salvation from "much error and confusion" and plainly states it is "not that which takes a man to Heaven". So there is an eternal salvation that does not rest upon one's repentance, belief and baptism; and there is a gospel or temporal salvation which does rest upon those three things. This simple definition is fairly standard among the Moderate Primitive Baptists. I suppose one could complicate it, but why complicate something so simple? Conditional time salvation simply states that a person can have eternal life and leave this world without experiencing the joy and deliverance by water baptism. Would you not agree?
 
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mlqurgw

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If you use the Moderates definition of conditional time salvation, it is not complicated at all. UMP's pastor, L. Bradley described conditional time salvation as baptism in his pamphlet What Do Primitive Baptist Believe (Answers to Frequently Asked Questions). Question 27 and its answer is a good example of conditional time salvation.
...........................................................................
27. Do you call upon men to repent and believe?

A: Yes, the burdened sinner ought to repent and believe the truth. The one who thus repents, believes, and is baptized is going to be saved from the distress he feels and from much error and confusion (Mark 16:16). The salvation involved here is not that which takes a man to Heaven, but that which saves his life here in the world (Acts 2:40).
..........................................................................
In the pamphlet L. Bradley describes the salvation that comes by repentance, belief and baptism as a temporal salvation from "much error and confusion" and plainly states it is "not that which takes a man to Heaven". So there is an eternal salvation that does not rest upon one's repentance, belief and baptism; and there is a gospel or temporal salvation which does rest upon those three things. This simple definition is fairly standard among the Moderate Primitive Baptists. I suppose one could complicate it, but why complicate something so simple? Conditional time salvation simply states that a person can have eternal life and leave this world without experiencing the joy and deliverance by water baptism. Would you not agree?
It has been more than 20 years since I read that pamphlet. You are right I remembered it slightly different than it actually is.
 
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UMP

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If you use the Moderates definition of conditional time salvation, it is not complicated at all. UMP's pastor, L. Bradley described conditional time salvation as baptism in his pamphlet What Do Primitive Baptist Believe (Answers to Frequently Asked Questions). Question 27 and its answer is a good example of conditional time salvation.
...........................................................................
27. Do you call upon men to repent and believe?

A: Yes, the burdened sinner ought to repent and believe the truth. The one who thus repents, believes, and is baptized is going to be saved from the distress he feels and from much error and confusion (Mark 16:16). The salvation involved here is not that which takes a man to Heaven, but that which saves his life here in the world (Acts 2:40).
..........................................................................
In the pamphlet L. Bradley describes the salvation that comes by repentance, belief and baptism as a temporal salvation from "much error and confusion" and plainly states it is "not that which takes a man to Heaven". So there is an eternal salvation that does not rest upon one's repentance, belief and baptism; and there is a gospel or temporal salvation which does rest upon those three things. This simple definition is fairly standard among the Moderate Primitive Baptists. I suppose one could complicate it, but why complicate something so simple? Conditional time salvation simply states that a person can have eternal life and leave this world without experiencing the joy and deliverance by water baptism. Would you not agree?

I believe brother Bradley would now say that the elect child of God presented with the gospel WILL repent and believe.
However, I should not speak for him. If you want to know for sure, give him a call:)
 
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UMP

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I believe you are correct. According to my info, your pastor's preaching has significantly shifted to agree more with the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists.

Lavola,
All that really matters is the truth as taught in the word of God. Therefore, I do not agree with conditional time salvation. I believe this doctrine has snuck into Primitive Baptist teaching only in the last 100 or so years.
The following was written by elder Boaz in 1897:


WHAT PRIMITIVE BAPTISTS HAVE BELIEVED

It is insisted by some that there is a salvation which is entirely of God, and that there is also a salvation which they call “Time Salvation,” (and they refer to it as the “Two Salvations”) which depends entirely upon the works of God’s children, and they claim that this “Conditional Time Salvation” is Primitive Baptist doctrine. Let us look into this point and see if we can determine what has been Primitive Baptist belief along this line. Remember that this conditional time salvation idea is based on the assumption that in regeneration God’s children receive power to do all God’s commands, unaided by the Spirit, and that obedience is left entirely to their own choice; they can obey or disobey at their option. And their life time enjoyment depends alone upon their own decision in this. If they decide to obey, and will do it, they escape the sorrows that are common to the saints that otherwise they would suffer, thus representing the ability and the dependence to be in the believer, while some of the early writers (to my mind incorrectly) used the words “depend upon our obedience,” they have universally agreed that our obedience, after regeneration, depended upon the working of God’s Spirit in us; that in fact obedience was a work of God in us, wrought in us by the Holy Spirit, and that the ability was not at all in us. But recently it has been denied that obedience is worked in the children of God by the Spirit, and conditionalism, long opposed by Primitive Baptists replying against the Regular Baptists, is now being accepted among our churches. In the London Confession of Faith, published in 1689, which Primitive Baptists honor and claim that it sets forth their faith, we read “On Good Works” that good works are only such as God hath commanded in His Holy Word. These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a lively faith. The believers ability to do good works is not at all of himself, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ.
Now this needs little comment, unless we are inclined to believe that the Spirit of Christ is unable to overcome their inability. They say that good works are the “fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith.” Then faith must produce them, it is clear, and as faith is the gift of God and cannot exist without works as James teaches, for living faith always produces action; therefore their works did not depend upon them, but upon faith. This is Baptist doctrine, from 208 years ago to the present (1897). All these English brethren still teach on the subject of good works, and rest on this idea that the ability is not in the believer to do good works, but in faith, which produces them. This view of the subject harmonizes beautifully with their belief of God’s decree, of His foreknowledge, and of His providence, as you can see by reading their confession, while this conditional time salvation idea, as is now being taught. can never be harmonized with it.
A letter written by Elder John Gano, and adopted and published in the Minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association in 1784, says, “On Effectual Calling”, “This is an act of Sovereign Grace … and is such an irresistible impression made by the Holy Spirit upon the human soul as to effect a blessed change … the author is God … this is an Holy calling and is effectual to produce the exercise of holiness in the heart, even as the saints are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works” The Philadelphia Association at this time believed that the grace of God produced the exercise of holiness in the hearts of the saints. In the Circular Letter of the same Association, published for 1789, we read that “Mere legal repentance originates in self love …but repentance which is unto life and salvation has God for its Author, and does NOT arise from the power of free will …but from the grace of God as the efficient, and the operation of the Divine Spirit as the impulsive cause … this repentance is WROUGHT in the hearts of God’s people to their edification, etc.” Here you will see it is asserted that repentance, which is unto life and salvation (and in time, and referred to as a part of time salvation by the Conditionalists) has GOD for ITS AUTHOR, (hence it is not left with us to do or not to do according to our option) and that the grace of God is the efficient cause and the Divine Spirit is the impulsive cause, and that it is wrought in the hearts of God’s people. Now I ask, can God’s grace be efficient and inefficient at the same time? Will the Holy Spirit be the impulsive cause and we not be moved by the cause? How absurd! These Baptists believed that any repentance that was of any benefit to God’s people, whether in respect to time or not, had GOD FOR ITS AUTHOR.
In the Circular Letter published in 1795, by Elder Samuel Jones, we read: “The Gospel contains no conditional offers of salvation.” Elder Jones then would not have believed those now preaching among us that say that God has offered His children salvation in time, on conditions to be performed by them, for he says the Gospel contains no conditional offers of salvation. And this Association agreed with him, and this was the FIRST Baptist association in America! We will quote further from Brother Jones: “To make salvation conditional would rob God of His Sovereignty.” Oh, says one, he is speaking of “eternal salvation.” Answer: Yes, that is true. What other kind could he have possibly talked about, seeing there is none? He knew of but one salvation. But suppose, just suppose, there were two, and you make one conditional, would it not also rob God of His Sovereignty as much as to make them both conditional? Surely it would; it always has. For where has there ever been a conditional salvationist that believed in God’s sovereignty? “What!” exclaimed Elder Jones, ‘lake our happiness (a time experience) depend on man? If we will do part God will do the rest! Alas; what can man do in the business of his salvation, first to last, to merit it, or promote it? Is he altogether dependent on God? Yea, verily, that at every step in the beginning and progress of the gracious work he may cry, Grace, grace.” Could anything be more plain? And could anything be more foreign from the ideas now being advanced by those that are teaching Conditional Time Salvation? He believed that salvation, from “first to last,” was of the Lord, and true Primitive Baptists have ever believed it, and believe it yet.
We could quote more from Brother Jones to our advantage, but space forbids. [The whole article is found in the Minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association, 1707 - 1807, for the year 1795] We have produced enough evidence, however, to show that the prevailing belief of this association up to this time was in the grace alone system. But about this time anti-christ gained such influence in this and other associations that they to some extent began to leave off such teachings, and then went from bad to worse, until the true Baptists expelled the unsound conditionalist element from them. But we hear the same sentiments taught, such as the following from Elder Jesse Cox in his “Exposition of Revelations,” pg.205, 1866, “We contend that all those in whom the fear of God dwells will thereby be led to please Him, and to abound with the good works of the Gospel, which God had before ORDAINED that we should walk in them, which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, sobriety, and the other good works enforced in the Holy Scriptures.” This shows conclusively that Brother Cox believed that God’s children would be led by the fear of God to please Him, hence their dependence upon this influence, and the certainty of the effect of the influence. On page 211, he says: “The Old School Baptists believe that good works are the sure fruit and effect that follow after justification.” Did you notice he said SURE FRUIT and EFFECTS? If they are sure to follow, then it is not left to you and me to do or not to do, as we may determine. Grace determines this for us, “working in us to will and to do.” And if time salvation depended on good works in us, yet it would not depend on us! On page 221, he says, “Upon that Great Agent (the Holy Spirit) we are all dependent for true and vital religion; not only to produce regeneration, but to perpetuate and live in the enjoyment of it.” Does this look like Brother Cox believe that regeneration was God’s work, but the enjoyment of it depended on our works? On page 475, he says, “And as salvation certainly follows predestination and results from it, so good works as certainly follow salvation and are the fruit and effect of it, for it is God that worketh in His children in all ages, both to will and to do, according to the good pleasure of His will. Good works is to practice faithfully what He has recorded in His word.”
Is not this teaching here of Elder Cox, the noted Primitive Baptist preacher and writer, in perfect agreement with what I have herein written? Is it at all in harmony with the preaching that has been recently introduced among us in the last few years by Conditional Time Salvation teachers? Brother Cox believed in and taught good works, but that we work out because God worketh in, not merely in regeneration, but continues to work in His children, and that good works are sure to flow out from the inworkings of God’s Holy Spirit. Hence, time salvation can only depend on our works in so far as our works are evidences of the inward workings of God’s Spirit. The dependence is in the Spirit of God. To take any other view of Elder Cox’s belief would make him contradict himself and destroy his witness.
 
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UMP

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The rest:

Elder J. M. Watson, author of the “Old Baptist Test,” held the same views that Brother Cox held. On page 50 of his book, he says: “Let him (the new creature) be led by the Spirit of God, and he will follow in the way of obedience. When God worketh in the soul both to will and to do, the fruit will be holiness of life, most assuredly.” This is what I have contended for, but others say it may or may not be. On page 156, he says: “The good ground must be both given and cultivated by the Great Husbandman in order that its fruit may ripen to perfection.” In the last quotation he, in substance, said that when this is done the fruit will ripen without fail. Does the conditional time salvation idea that is now being preached teach this? No, sir; for it says that God gave the good ground, and has cultivated some of it at least, and still there is no fruit. On page 181, Watson says, “Practical godliness can acknowledge no other source than God; it is God that worketh; and through man the work is made manifest.” This is precisely what I am still contending for. Our works only manifest the workings of Gods Spirit in us. We know that if the ground is good, and has proper cultivation it will bear fruit without fail, and we know further that good ground cannot cultivate nor water itself, but is wholly dependent upon a superior power Some say we are active in obedience So say I, but only when made so by the workings of God’s Spirit in us. The good ground is active in fruit bearing, but only when made so by cultivation, and we poor mortals have knowledge enough to know that with proper soil, proper seed, proper cultivation, proper nutrients, proper moisture, and sunshine, we will have a full crop, and without them we will not. This all know to be true, unless it is the blind and ignorant. God is the Great Husbandman and knows everything necessary to cause fruit-bearing in His children, and He “freely gives us all things,” knowing, without possibility of failure, what the results will be beforehand. Hence, dependence is entirely in Him; and God is the only source of practical godliness. On page 178, Brother Watson says, ‘When repentance is given, we bring forth fruit meet for repentance; when faith is given, we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and when we are kept by the power of God, we persevere; and those who are created in Christ Jesus unto good works will perform them.” Brother Watson doesn’t allow any “ifs” here, but speaks in a positive sense; when God gives repentance we do repent, not may or can. This has been my position, but the conditional idea says we may, or may not; that God has striven with many of His children trying to bring them to repentance, but they have stubbornly refused His overtures and gone on in rebellion. For proof of this, read Elders Kirkland’s and Cayce’s papers. Elder Watson believed God’s children should obey God, but that they were dependent upon God for obedience; that it was God working in them, that God exercised His children (to holiness) instead of His children exercising Him, as Conditionalists teach. I am aware that Elder Watson was combating the General Atonement Arminian idea, but he has also refuted this new idea, that after regeneration, we are left to act at our own will, for he says that God worketh in us to will, and when He has done this, we will act. Now if you find that Brother Watson has contradicted this somewhere else in his book, then his evidence is made void. I don’t believe that he has, for I have read his book; but when he points out the errors among God’s children and exhorts and admonishes them to turn from them, he does it, fully believing what I have quoted from him in the light I have indicated. This is the only bases upon which Scriptural exhortation or admonition can be given with any assurance of success. That is, God is the only “source of practical godliness.” I know that depraved nature is ready to dispute this, but that doesn’t change the truth. Elder Sylvester Hassell, junior author of Hassell’s History, says on page 942, “I believe and I think that every Bible Baptist believes, that God is the Almighty, All-wise and All-holy Sovereign of the Universe. That He had a purpose worthy of Himself, however inscrutable to us, in regard to the entrance of sin into the world, as well as in regard to all things else. That by His supreme power and decree He restricts all the rage and malice of wicked men and devils to do no more nor less than what He will overrule for the good of His people and for His own glory. That men act voluntarily when they commit sin. I further believe that, while the sinner has destroyed himself, ALL his salvation from first to last, is of the pure, unmerited, almighty and unchanging grace of God.” Here Elder Hassell expresses my belief, and he says he thinks that all Bible Baptists believe the same? That God had a purpose in the entrance of sin and all other things, and that He restricts men and devils, that they do no more or less that He will overrule (hence, or than He purposed), for the good of His people, and that their salvation, from first to last, is of grace. What does conditional time salvation say? It says that God has no purpose in sin in any sense, but would have prevented it; that many things occur contrary to His expectation, and never result in any good to God’s children, or His glory, and could have been avoided by their obedience; and that salvation in time is alone by works, which we can perform at will. Is not the difference too plain to be denied? Therefore, Conditional Time Salvation is not Primitive Baptists doctrine.
 
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Lavola

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UMP,

You are correct… All that really matters is the truth as taught in the word of God. Let me post again a portion of a previous post. Moderate Primitive Baptists define conditional time salvation using the example below. You state that you do not agree with this definition of conditional time salvation. Would you please explain your objections to the example below.

Conditional Time Salvation
From your previous posts, it seems to me that your understanding of conditional time salvation is quite different from the Moderate Primitive Baptists. Again, I believe the example of water baptism is what really helps to define the term conditional time salvation for the Moderates.

Do you believe that water baptism is optional and that a child of God's choice or will is involved in such an act? or is it not optional?

Do you believe that water baptism has any bearing on one’s eternal salvation? or is it for the hear and now [time or temporal]

Do you believe that water baptism has a saving effect. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

1) The Moderate Primitive Baptists argue that a born again child of God exercises a will and has a choice or option whether they follow the Lord in baptism.

2) They would say that water baptism is for this life only and therefore has its effects and benefits here and now and not for hear after. Temporal or Time

3) Moderates say that water baptism brings a deliverance or salvation to the born again elect's conscience and like the eunuch of old goes on his way rejoicing.

Water baptism is 1) Conditional 2) Time 3) Salvation

Do you find anything wrong with defining water baptism that way?

I believe the definition comes much closer defining Moderate Primitive Baptists meaning of conditional time salvation than the one you previous gave. The article you linked gave a distorted view of what Moderates define as conditional time salvation.
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The 90% of Primitive Baptists i.e. the Moderates adhere to conditional time salvation. They teach that baptism and the Lord’s supper are things that involve both God’s grace and man’s will. It is their choice whether they are baptized and whether they partake of the Lord’s supper and whether they do it worthily. They say that in eternal salvation there is NO CHOICE. They teach that in conditional time salvation the elect have many choices to make and that those choices affect their temporal lives and spiritual happiness in the earth. (Happy are ye if ye do these things.)

90% of Primitive Baptists elders believe in conditional time salvation. You may be correct that the term was introduced a hundred years ago, but a close look at the principles and proof texts upon which the term is founded makes it very believable that the teaching (regardless of the term used) has ever been among the Baptist people.

The pastor of Lexington Primitive Baptist Church would be a good example of a Moderate Primitive Baptist. The writings that I have read on his websitee are of the Moderate stripe. He did have an article posted on Temporal Salvation that explains the Moderate position better than I can. If you disagree with the article then I would say that you belong with those that make up less than 10% of all Primitive Baptists i.e., an Absolute Predestinarian.
 
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UMP

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UMP,

You are correct… All that really matters is the truth as taught in the word of God. Let me post again a portion of a previous post. Moderate Primitive Baptists define conditional time salvation using the example below. You state that you do not agree with this definition of conditional time salvation. Would you please explain your objections to the example below.

Conditional Time Salvation
From your previous posts, it seems to me that your understanding of conditional time salvation is quite different from the Moderate Primitive Baptists. Again, I believe the example of water baptism is what really helps to define the term conditional time salvation for the Moderates.

Do you believe that water baptism is optional and that a child of God's choice or will is involved in such an act? or is it not optional?

Do you believe that water baptism has any bearing on one’s eternal salvation? or is it for the hear and now [time or temporal]

Do you believe that water baptism has a saving effect. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

1) The Moderate Primitive Baptists argue that a born again child of God exercises a will and has a choice or option whether they follow the Lord in baptism.

2) They would say that water baptism is for this life only and therefore has its effects and benefits here and now and not for hear after. Temporal or Time

3) Moderates say that water baptism brings a deliverance or salvation to the born again elect's conscience and like the eunuch of old goes on his way rejoicing.

Water baptism is 1) Conditional 2) Time 3) Salvation

Do you find anything wrong with defining water baptism that way?

I believe the definition comes much closer defining Moderate Primitive Baptists meaning of conditional time salvation than the one you previous gave. The article you linked gave a distorted view of what Moderates define as conditional time salvation.
………………………………………………………………….
The 90% of Primitive Baptists i.e. the Moderates adhere to conditional time salvation. They teach that baptism and the Lord’s supper are things that involve both God’s grace and man’s will. It is their choice whether they are baptized and whether they partake of the Lord’s supper and whether they do it worthily. They say that in eternal salvation there is NO CHOICE. They teach that in conditional time salvation the elect have many choices to make and that those choices affect their temporal lives and spiritual happiness in the earth. (Happy are ye if ye do these things.)

90% of Primitive Baptists elders believe in conditional time salvation. You may be correct that the term was introduced a hundred years ago, but a close look at the principles and proof texts upon which the term is founded makes it very believable that the teaching (regardless of the term used) has ever been among the Baptist people.

The pastor of Lexington Primitive Baptist Church would be a good example of a Moderate Primitive Baptist. The writings that I have read on his websitee are of the Moderate stripe. He did have an article posted on Temporal Salvation that explains the Moderate position better than I can. If you disagree with the article then I would say that you belong with those that make up less than 10% of all Primitive Baptists i.e., an Absolute Predestinarian.

Lavola,
I answer with a short reply:

Philipians 2:13
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

How much of His pleasure does God perform?:

Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do "ALL" my pleasure:

Was it God's pleasure that I be willing to be Baptised? Yes, indeed.

Was it God's pleasure that the believing thief on the cross not be baptised? Yes, indeed.

Both believers, one baptized the other not.

I believe that my baptism was conditional in ONLY one way, that it was God's pleasure that I be willing and do so.

ALL GLORY TO GOD, both temporally and eternally!!
 
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UMP

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UMP,
You explain your baptism by quoting Isaiah 46:10 …..and I will do "ALL" my pleasure. Do you have any relatives that have not been baptized by your pastor? If so, is their rejection to gospel baptism also the Lord’s pleasure?

Yes, I have many relatives that have not been baptized by my pastor. I also have many non believing relatives.
However, by the grace of God, I love God more than my relatives. God works in mysterious ways, not much of which I currently understand. Did it please God to love Jacob and hate Esau before they were even born?
Yes, indeed.
By the grace of God and only by the grace of God I say with Job,(even when I cannot understand) "though He slay me yet will I trust Him..."

I'm sorry, I don't have much more to say on the subject.
 
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Lavola

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UMP,
My prayer is that our discussion on conditional time salvation has been a benefit to both of us. It is understandable that your perception of Primitive Baptist doctrine is a reflection of what you have been taught at Cincinnati Church. Have you ever thought of expanding your horizons to find out what 90% of living Primitive Baptist pastors and churches believe about conditional time salvation? I realize it would be risky for you to do so but I believe it would bring you a greater joy, comfort and peace than what you presently believe. Have you ever read you pastor’s pamphlet favoring conditional time salvation? It is very good. I will email you a copy of the pamphlet if you would like to read it.

Wishing you the best--Lavola
 
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