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A merciful god sends a majority of Earth's population to hell automatically?

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BoneVulture

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This is the angle in christianity that bothers me the most. Is a deity that condemns all non-believers to hell worth believing in?

A muslim farmer somewhere in the Turkish outback who has never wandered beyond his grazing lands - hell?
A hindu doctor who spent his life developing a better cure for malaria - hell?
A buddhist monk in the Tibetan mountains - hell?
An Aborigine who upholds the dream time tradition - hell?

Why isn't there a middle ground in the afterlife for good non-christians, similar to the concept of Limbo?
 

LilLamb219

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Is a deity that condemns all non-believers to hell worth believing in?

First look at WHY we all deserve to spend eternity in hell. Each and everyone of us deserves death because of sin. We miss the mark (which is the definition of sin). Only Christ Jesus could hit the mark and that is because He is God who came to earth to die on the cross in our substitute. Having faith in Him comes from God's Word, more specifically upon hearing the Gospel pronounced. It's a gift from God yet some toss it away and do not want it. When they reject, they reject the forgiveness of the cross that reconciles them back to God.

When we look at it through a different lens, we see that we all deserve to be in hell. God works through means to save us, through the cross, through His Word found in scriptures and through men who go out to proclaim salvation by grace through faith.
 
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EyezOFire

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BoneVulture said:
:sigh:

At what point does the "all-loving, merciful god" kick in?
You're still breathing aren't you ?? Think about something.... I'm not sure if you have children, but if you have a son and you handed your son (who had never done anything wrong to anyone) over to someone else who was far away from and whom you loved. As a gesture of peace. But you knew in the future they were going to beat him drag him half naked through the street, and kill him. But you gave him over knowing this would take place. But because you loved the people so much you gave him anyway. Hoping they would accept your offer. Then the people who murdered him treat the very thing that was dear to your heart as common and no better than trash.

Wouldnt you be a little upset ?

It's not that we loved God but he loved us..
 
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Ead

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How about the people that dont even know they got a gift? What happens to these people with your "Merciful" God? Do they just get thrown into hell cause they were ignorant, or do they get thrown into hell cause they didnt accept the gift? If God is merciful and everywhere, everyone on the planet would know. But alas, we have millions that have never heard of this "Christianity".

So Eyez, what happens to these innocent people?
 
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Mskedi

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Here's what I'm seeing:

Everybody sins, and therefore everyone deserves to go to hell, but the few of us who are lucky enough to have been introduced to Christianity and accept it get to escape that fate.

That's all fine a good, but what about those people whose sins are minor who haven't heard of Christianity? Or have had Christianity presented to them in a negative way? I believe it is those people who the OP is referring to.

Personally, I have a hard time thinking the Buddhist monks I met in Thailand are all going to hell... they are some pretty decent people.

I've been Christian my whole life and I struggle with this idea. I think the responses thus far in the thread have been a bit flippant -- as though these people we're speaking of as being condemned to hell are faceless and unimportant.
 
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epy

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Although many moderate views could be put forth on this like "God knows each person's heart." and "People can believe without having any formal training as from missionaries, etc."....

This is my thought:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2For by it the men of old gained approval. 3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.... (long list of Bible heros and what they did)...39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
NASB(R)

The following is a link to the final verse in the NIV translation. If you aren't sure what the last verse means, the other translation might be of use.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2011:40;&version=31;
 
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prophecystudent

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AIR, part of the original post concerned the condemnation of those who had never heard of Christ, or of God's plan for our salvation.

Based on the premise that only those who had heard of Christ and accepted Him will be saved, then nobody born prior to Christ can be, or are, saved. This is blatantly false.

Read the bible, in context, and answer this question: "If nobody who never heard of Christ can be in heaven with God, or Christ, then why does the bible talk about resurrecting the OT SAINTS to be with God for eternity?

By such logic, Abraham, David, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) Joseph, all the OT prophets who gave their lives to spread God's word, etc would all be consigned to Hell. Not so.

Read for example the scripture about Christ's visitation by Elijah and Moses shortly before He was crucified. If they were in hell, why would they have come to minister to Christ? Just one example. There are many.

God has a plan for saving those who never heard of Christ. It may be obscure to us, but He has one.

Having said all that, I submit that sometimes a questioner is not really interested in the answer, rather to argue the point, for whatever reason. Try to persuade such people is a waste of time.

Fred
 
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revmalone

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Greetings friend
I answered this question to another person, I hope it will help you also.

Greetings
The Question was? "describe how Gods justice is at work when he punishes a person for all eternity in hell for a temporal crime". There are a few things to understand to know the answer to that kind of question. I can shed some light on the answer, but be open minded since all this is new for you.


There use to be 3 sections to the underworld area. The first we call hell which is call hades.
The second is the bottomless pit found in (Revelation 9:2) The bottomless pit is were the worst and most evil angels that followed satan out of heaven are Chained until the Great Judgement Day (Jude 1:6)

The third was paradise, this was the temporary place(heaven) that the rightious souls who had faith in God and those who were under that years blood scarifice went to after there life on earth was done, this place was taking away when Jesus arose from the dead and took them all to heaven were they are to this day. Ephesians 4:8-10. Those who were taken to heaven with Christ are all the old testament people in the paradise.

So Now there are only two place there only one gets bigger as I will explain. Just as our universe is always expanding and has no limits God said " hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure Isaiah 5:14). Hell has expanded since paradise was taken out and it has no limits, if needed it could hold the whole world.

So lets review, the 3 places of the underworld, paradise-gone now, the bottomless pit-those angels that to wicked to be free, Hell(hades) is the place that the souls of the lost go until the final day of Judgement. Now that you understand what was down there, it will help you see what Hell is.

Hell (hades) is not the place the lost is judged that place would be known as Gehenna

Does a guy that breaks the Law go straight to prison right after being arrested, NO this would be a unjust action and this is not how it works he go first to a holding cell at the local jail to await all charges to be file against him. Just like in hell(hades), all are equal, no crime greater then another until Judgement day, all await there day in court. This is what Hell is being used for.


Gods mercy is in this fact, the only sin God holds all mankind accountable for right now is rejecting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and that's it. He see's every sin we do as being done thru ignorance this allows him to have complete forgivness on every man, women, boy and girl.

No matter what sins you ever did God knows you done them not understanding that they were wrong.
Hell is not the final place that the lost soul will stay, it is were the soul is held after the body dies because the body goes back to the dust. Everyone who dies lost will receives the same torments as all in this temporary place, there is not different degrees personal punishment in hell( hades) right now because it is just the Holding place not the final place.

There is a Day God has set aside to judge every evil work and to pass down the exact required payment that must be paid. This is were God will bring justice to each and every crime and sin ever commited.

When a person dies lost there soul will stay in the holding cell called Hell, it's only until Gods final day of Judgement. At this Judgement every evil, every secret, every deed, every thought, every cuss word, is added to each account. The Bible calls this Judgement, the Great White Throne judgement. When the lost appear at this judgement they will receive there bodies but this time there bodies that aremade just to be able to handle the terrible judgement that will be given.

Christians will have a glorified body to face there judgement, but they receive rewards at there judgement not punishment. The lost will have a soul and body to be cast in alive taking every price and tourment received in judgement into the Lake of Fire.

Just think of how hot it could be if a person get's 1 degree of fire per offence. How many cuss words have you said, then add up the dirty thought, the jokes, all the people that have been affected by every bad thing you did to them, what about for every lie told, It makes me tremble to think of the received punishments.

Here is the Judgement Day recorded in Scripture
Revelation 20:11-15
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Everything we do is recorded into our minds, your eyes are recording lens God records your whole life from, some who have died explain there whole life flashed before there eyes, your whole life is recorded inside your mind.Man has created great machines some can even trace every phone conversation, great records are stored on a small computer and at the push of a button, entire history of a person can be traced.

Each person as they walk through this life they are recording there own actions for a witness on that day of judgement. If a person denies they did a act that there accused of God will show it to you, he can show the exact second you did it live right before your own eyes and there will be no excuse for you to use, every small thing you have done, on that day it will be shown to all the hosts of heaven and many are going to add on to there punishment that day, because of all the lies they are going to tell him, he will be just because there will not be one thing left in the universe unpunished after this great judgement day. .

Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37;" I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned".

After this great judgement day trial is over, all there will be cast into the Eternal prison known as The Lake of Fire.(Revelation 20:15)

Who is the Judge on that day? It will be none other then Jesus Christ Himself.

John 5:22;" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

Jesus made the way to be saved and because he is the salvation the only way, God commited all judgement to him. He knows all who are his and he knows all who are not his. There will be no mistakes on the Day he judges.
John 10:24-30
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Being saved is free, all we have to do is ask to be forgiven, no works to be done to get it, it's all paid for and it is Gods free gift. How could God make it anymore simple for us to receive. If anyone searched all the rest of the worlds religions they will have to do this work or that work to go into there so called heaven, but in every other religion there is no assurance, no promises that you will go this way, the truth is you don't, without Jesus you go to the holding cell. That is why Jesus told us nobody can come to heaven except by him.

If I owned a house and I told everybody who wants to enter it they must come thru the front door only or be arrested . Suppose then people said he's not serious and started trying to come through my roof or window, would I be wrong to called the law, no.

Is it my fault they went to jail, NO! Why not? I tried to help let them in, I warned them theres one way in. I made the way to get in invitation, and it wouldn't cost them one thing , but by choosing there own way to get in , they lost it all, but it all came down to there choice on how to get in. This is the same way God has done for all of man kind, he made salvation to be free and every person gets it the same way, asking Jesus.He has told us to come in thru the door and the only door is Jesus, read it.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Is God just in what he is doing, yes when we see the big picture there is nothing left for him to do, it's up to us to decide to get in, his way or pay our own way, which will you choose.

Matthew 7:13-14. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Just ask for it, don't miss your invitation.
Rev Malone
 
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Dondi

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"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." - Luke 10:25-28

I think there is something to this "Golden Rule" thing. Jesus seems to agree. So my take is that if you are following the Golden rule to the best of one's ability, I think the grace of God can fall on those who do not "know" Christ in name, but do "know" Christ in action. It's a pity that the mainline Christian thinking has forgotten this. The object of the game is not to merely "accept" Christ as Savior, though He is, but to live according to His example. The primary mission of Jesus was not to just to die on the cross for sins, but to bring His people back to a true worship of God. God is much more inteested in how we treat each other in love than He is in even offering the sacrifice of His Son.

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question." - Mark 12:28-34

In emphasis in "accepting Christ", we lose the whole reason God wants to save us in the first place. And that is to Love God and Love our neighbor. Sure, nobody wants to go to hell. By that token, none of us deserves heaven. But I'm convinced that if someone in another religion would apply this principle of loving God and loving neighbor, then that person is doing the will of God. God grants mercy to those who shows mercy. I would even go so far as to say tha those who don't know anything about God, but tries to live according to something like the "Golden Rule", that is giving oneself unselfishly to another's cause and showing mercy to the needy, is not going to find their deeds go unnoticed. I just can't believe that God in His righteous judgement wouldn't look at a persons heart.

"But what if they don't have Christ as Savior?" How do you know that Jesus isn't their Savior, but they don't know it? Are they not doing the will of God in showing mercy.I'm not suggesting universalism here, for like I said, God judges the heart of man, even the heart of Christians. But don't be such a naive Christian in thinking that by "accepting Christ" is going to do it for you if you are not loving God and your neighbor as you know you ought. Jesus even warns about such people who call Him "Lord, Lord" and do not do as He says. Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan.

"...I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me." Yes, Jesus said this. I think the Spirit of Christ can be found in many of the non-Christian religions in the world, if they are demonstrating the "Way" that Jesus taught us how to live with each other. I'm convinced that jugdement will be based on how we have shown mercy, and those who haven't will be in danger of punishment, but those who do show mercy will obtain mercy (think beatitudes). According to Matthew 25:31-46, there are only two types of people in this world: the Sheep and the Goats. But the only difference between the two is what they did...or didn't...do. Which one are you?
 
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red77

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BoneVulture said:
:sigh:

At what point does the "all-loving, merciful god" kick in?

I'm afraid as regards the literalist or fundamentalist christian you may be waiting a long time to find that God............thankfully there's many christians out there who think outside the dogmatic box and can see God as being a lot more merciful than this type of thinking would suggest........
 
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revmalone

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Greetings

I got a question kinda along this line, so here was my answer maybe it can help you in some way.

Greetings
The Question was? "describe how Gods justice is at work when he punishes a person for all eternity in hell for a temporal crime". There are a few things to understand to know the answer to that kind of question. I can shed some light on the answer, but be open minded since all this is new for you.


There use to be 3 sections to the underworld area. The first we call hell which is call hades.

The second is the bottomless pit found in (Revelation 9:2) The bottomless pit is were the worst and most evil angels that followed satan out of heaven are Chained until the Great Judgement Day (Jude 1:6)

The third was paradise, this was the temporary place(heaven) that the rightious souls who had faith in God and those who were under that years blood scarifice went to after there life on earth was done, this place was taking away when Jesus arose from the dead and took them all to heaven were they are to this day. Ephesians 4:8-10. Those who were taken to heaven with Christ are all the old testament people in the paradise.

So Now there are only two place there only one gets bigger as I will explain. Just as our universe is always expanding and has no limits God said " hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure:(Isaiah 5:14). Hell has expanded since paradise was taken out and it has no limits, if needed it could hold the whole world.

So lets review, the 3 places of the underworld, paradise-gone now, the bottomless pit-those angels that to wicked to be free, Hell(hades) is the place that the souls of the lost go until the final day of Judgement. Now that you understand what was down there, it will help you see what Hell is.

Hell (hades) is not the place the lost is judged that place would be known as Gehenna.

Does a guy that breaks the Law go straight to prison right after being arrested, NO this would be a unjust action and this is not how it works he go first to a holding cell at the local jail to await all charges to be file against him. Just like in hell(hades), all are equal, no crime greater then another until Judgement day, all await there day in court. This is what Hell is being used for.


Gods mercy is in this fact, the only sin God holds all mankind accountable for right now is rejecting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and that's it. He see's every sin we do as being done thru ignorance this allows him to have complete forgivness on every man, women, boy and girl.

No matter what sins you ever did God knows you done them not understanding that they were wrong.
Hell is not the final place that the lost soul will stay, it is were the soul is held after the body dies because the body goes back to the dust. Everyone who dies lost will receives the same torments as all in this temporary place, there is not different degrees personal punishment in hell( hades) right now because it is just the Holding place not the final place.

There is a Day God has set aside to judge every evil work and to pass down the exact required payment that must be paid. This is were God will bring justice to each and every crime and sin ever commited.

When a person dies lost there soul will stay in the holding cell called Hell, it's only until Gods final day of Judgement. At this Judgement every evil, every secret, every deed, every thought, every cuss word, is added to each account. The Bible calls this Judgement, the Great White Throne judgement. When the lost appear at this judgement they will receive there bodies but this time there bodies that aremade just to be able to handle the terrible judgement that will be given.

Christians will have a glorified body to face there judgement, but they receive rewards at there judgement not punishment. The lost will have a soul and body to be cast in alive taking every price and tourment received in judgement into the Lake of Fire.

Just think of how hot it could be if a person get's 1 degree of fire per offence. How many cuss words have you said, then add up the dirty thought, the jokes, all the people that have been affected by every bad thing you did to them, what about for every lie told, It makes me tremble to think of the received punishments.

Here is the Judgement Day recorded in Scripture
Revelation 20:11-15
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Everything we do is recorded into our minds, your eyes are recording lens God records your whole life from, some who have died explain there whole life flashed before there eyes, your whole life is recorded inside your mind.Man has created great machines some can even trace every phone conversation, great records are stored on a small computer and at the push of a button, entire history of a person can be traced.

Each person as they walk through this life they are recording there own actions for a witness on that day of judgement. If a person denies they did a act that there accused of God will show it to you, he can show the exact second you did it live right before your own eyes and there will be no excuse for you to use, every small thing you have done, on that day it will be shown to all the hosts of heaven and many are going to add on to there punishment that day, because of all the lies they are going to tell him, he will be just because there will not be one thing left in the universe unpunished after this great judgement day. .

Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37;" I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned".

After this great judgement day trial is over, all there will be cast into the Eternal prison known as The Lake of Fire.(Revelation 20:15)

Who is the Judge on that day? It will be none other then Jesus Christ Himself.

John 5:22;" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

Jesus made the way to be saved and because he is the salvation the only way, God commited all judgement to him. He knows all who are his and he knows all who are not his. There will be no mistakes on the Day he judges.
John 10:24-30
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Being saved is free, all we have to do is ask to be forgiven, no works to be done to get it, it's all paid for and it is Gods free gift. How could God make it anymore simple for us to receive. If anyone searched all the rest of the worlds religions they will have to do this work or that work to go into there so called heaven, but in every other religion there is no assurance, no promises that you will go this way, the truth is you don't, without Jesus you go to the holding cell. That is why Jesus told us nobody can come to heaven except by him.

If I owned a house and I told everybody who wants to enter it they must come thru the front door only or be arrested . Suppose then people said he's not serious and started trying to come through my roof or window, would I be wrong to called the law, no.

Is it my fault they went to jail, NO! Why not? I tried to help let them in, I warned them theres one way in. I made the way to get in invitation, and it wouldn't cost them one thing , but by choosing there own way to get in , they lost it all, but it all came down to there choice on how to get in. This is the same way God has done for all of man kind, he made salvation to be free and every person gets it the same way, asking Jesus.He has told us to come in thru the door and the only door is Jesus, read it.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Is God just in what he is doing, yes when we see the big picture there is nothing left for him to do, it's up to us to decide to get in, his way or pay our own way, which will you choose.

Matthew 7:13-14. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
don't miss your invitation to heaven,you only have to ask Jesus. it's yours
Rev Malone
 
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Dwayne2001

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I asked myself the same question not more that 3 weeks ago: 'How can a merciful God send good people to hell simply becuase they picked the wrong religeon'. I saw a common thread among all religeons, and I saw people following them... therefore I surmised that they were basically all the same and it did not really matter which one you picked.

I think you can dig through the bible and history books and surmise and argue all you want, but it all boils down to BELIEF. You have to believe, or nothing works. You cannot bring yourself to belief either... there is no logical conclusion because doubt will always foil you. I asked God to give me belief and he gave it to me. One night, right out of the blue I suddenly accepted what I held up as fantasy before. Suddenly, a God that that would sacrifice...that would actually take the time to live and die for our benefit was touching beyond belief. The one night passed and doubt has settled back in place now, but I have made a concsious decision to cultivate that belief and hold on to it. Coming from the opposite side, not more than 4 weeks ago, I can understand why debating christianity with christians is so baffling. It is because no matter how the debate goes, you are not going to win.
 
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SoC

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BoneVulture said:
This is the angle in christianity that bothers me the most. Is a deity that condemns all non-believers to hell worth believing in?

A muslim farmer somewhere in the Turkish outback who has never wandered beyond his grazing lands - hell?
A hindu doctor who spent his life developing a better cure for malaria - hell?
A buddhist monk in the Tibetan mountains - hell?
An Aborigine who upholds the dream time tradition - hell?

Why isn't there a middle ground in the afterlife for good non-christians, similar to the concept of Limbo?

*has only read about the first 15 posts in this topic*

Yes, if they don't know Christ as their savior, they go to hell. The whole "Limbo" idea is nowhere in the Bible, probably because God is very "black and white." You're either with Him or against Him. Saved or condemned. There is no middle ground.

You ask about "innocent" people? Show me one person who has never broken even one of the ten commandments in the history of Earth. There's only one: Christ. Everyone else is guilty of breaking the law of God. That is why we are deserving of hell.

Here's where the Mercy of God comes in. Instead of wiping us out or leaving us to die or whatnot, He sends His own son to die for us. To save us. He turned his back to His own son for our sakes. How dare you call Him unmerciful! Let's see you get flogged, beaten, spit upon, and nailed to a cross without hatred towards the people doing that to you. Let's see you forgive them as they raise you up to hang by the nails that hold you to the cross. Let's see you do that willingly, knowing full well that most will reject your sacrifice.

Also, God does not send us to hell. We choose to sin. We choose to reject Christ. Therefore, we choose hell. As someone else said, hell was not made for people. It was made for Satan and his angels. We choose to deny God and spend eternity in Hell. God has offered us a way to heaven, yet we choose to ignore it.

As for those people who don't know anything about Christianity? They are without excuse.

Romans 1:18-20 said:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[/FONT]

We are without excuse because we can look at the creation around us and see God.
 
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elf_lady_9

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SoC said:
*has only read about the first 15 posts in this topic*

Yes, if they don't know Christ as their savior, they go to hell. The whole "Limbo" idea is nowhere in the Bible, probably because God is very "black and white." You're either with Him or against Him. Saved or condemned. There is no middle ground.

You ask about "innocent" people? Show me one person who has never broken even one of the ten commandments in the history of Earth. There's only one: Christ. Everyone else is guilty of breaking the law of God. That is why we are deserving of hell.

Here's where the Mercy of God comes in. Instead of wiping us out or leaving us to die or whatnot, He sends His own son to die for us. To save us. He turned his back to His own son for our sakes. How dare you call Him unmerciful! Let's see you get flogged, beaten, spit upon, and nailed to a cross without hatred towards the people doing that to you. Let's see you forgive them as they raise you up to hang by the nails that hold you to the cross. Let's see you do that willingly, knowing full well that most will reject your sacrifice.

Also, God does not send us to hell. We choose to sin. We choose to reject Christ. Therefore, we choose hell. As someone else said, hell was not made for people. It was made for Satan and his angels. We choose to deny God and spend eternity in Hell. God has offered us a way to heaven, yet we choose to ignore it.

As for those people who don't know anything about Christianity? They are without excuse.



We are without excuse because we can look at the creation around us and see God.

:thumbsup:
 
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prosecutor

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Being new to this forum I would offer this suggestion about the lost. Jesus taught that while all the lost would be punished, the severity of the punishment would be different. Those who did not know the masters' will would be punished with few stripes while those who knew their masters' will and didn't do it would be punished with many stripes. (Luke 12:35-48)
Also let's be careful in talking about what we think a "merciful God" would do. His thoughts and actions are far above ours. (Isaiah 55:8,9) He always does right regardless of what we think about it.
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pdudgeon

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BoneVulture said:
This is the angle in christianity that bothers me the most. Is a deity that condemns all non-believers to hell worth believing in?

going waaaaay back to the OP.

"A merciful God"....yes, He is.

"...sends a majority of Earth's population,,"

no, they willingly choose. He "sends" no one unless He sends them to the lost with a message of repentence and restoration.

"...to hell automatically?"
Nothing that is sinful can exist in heaven. For sinful people, heaven would be a place of torment. Can you not imagine being in a place where everything and everyone in it was absolutely perfect, and you were not and never could be? That would be a painful existance.

If you have ever seen a mountain of nothing but pure snow in blinding sunlight so brilliant that you can't look at it without sunglasses to shield your eyes, and then contrast that with a solitary black rock, you can appreciate how vast the contrast would be between holiness and sin.
Being forced to live that way without anything to cut the contrast forever, would be painful in the extreme.

so those that are sinful must have a place to go to excape the holiness which is painful to them.
You say that God is bad for sending sinful men there to hell, but think of the consequences of not having a place to go to.

When Adam and Eve sinned they hid from God. God clothed them but He also would not let them stay where they were.
In that garden was a second tree, the tree of Life, and the danger was that being sinful, they would eat from that tree and live in their sinful state forever, surrounded by the perfection of the garden but having now way to remove the sin.

So God sent them away into the world and barred their return. They had sinned, and while there was a sacrifice for that sin, the consequences of that sin which changed their very nature forever were to be reaped until a permanent sacrifice was available.

and so we come to those 'good' people you mentioned. remember, they have deliberately chosen to be sinful and to remain so. God is merciful and provides a place for them as well, but He is also Just and Holy. and it is His Justice that demands people who don't repent of the sins that they have committed against Him, must reap what they have sewn. That is the 'reward' that they have earned for their sin.


A muslim farmer somewhere in the Turkish outback who has never wandered beyond his grazing lands - hell?
A hindu doctor who spent his life developing a better cure for malaria - hell?
A buddhist monk in the Tibetan mountains - hell?
An Aborigine who upholds the dream time tradition - hell?

Why isn't there a middle ground in the afterlife for good non-christians, similar to the concept of Limbo

the concept of Limbo originated in the belief that man after his death, out of his own strength and resources, could improve himself enough to be on a equal plane of holiness with God. it's not possible.

God gives everyone enough time, and information in the earth He has placed him in, to be able to understand that there is something greater than man himself in existance. God also put into the conscious of man the ability to question, and the thirst for knowledge.

these things, coupled with the right understanding of his own capabilities and shortcommings, would naturally lead a man to seek God.

but against that comes satan, the enemy of God and the accuser of the brethern, to assure man that he is brilliant in himself, has no need for answers, and is a self-determined creature. And that is how you wind up with 'good people' who reject God.:(

there are consequences for all our actions, whether we are Christians or not. the ONLY difference is that Christians have accepted the free gift of God's grace thru Jesus Christ, while the non-Christians have chosen to reject it.

So why could they not just remain on earth, since it's already corrupt? Because a restored, perfect earth has been reserved as a reward for those who claim Jesus. So there is nowhere else for the sinner to go to away from the perfection and holiness of God except the hell which they have chosen.
 
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MariaRegina

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Disclaimer: In this post, I'm speaking as a member of the Orthodox Christian faith and not as a moderator. I am not part of the clergy, but I have studied theology in college.

I am going to share with you a wonderful book Life after death by Metropolitan Hierotheos which is available in paperback. It quotes both scriptures and ancient Christians.

When we die, our soul separates from our body. This is an awful mystery that we just do not understand, as not much is spoken about this in the Scriptures. We know that only a few Saints are said to have been bodily assumed into Heaven, prefiguring our own resurrection. Wasn't Elijah one of the saints? And then Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was also assumed into Heaven. So, Heaven must be a place if Christ-God (with a body), Elijah and Mary (the Theotokos) are present in Heaven.

Okay, what about the souls of the damned? Have we ever heard of a body being assumed into Hades? No. So, we assume that Hades is not a place yet. And yes, we do refer to Hades as being under the earth and we do associate it with the grave.

Interestingly, the Nicene Creed says that Christ suffered and was buried. Being buried means that Christ went down into Hades. Yes, the scriptures said that Christ, Himself went into Hades to preach to the captives and to set those who believed in Him free. So, Orthodox Christians believe that during the three day burial, (and one has to be dead in order to be buried), Christ was in Hades preaching to all the souls. So all those who had departed, whatever their beliefs on earth, had a chance to hear the Good News. This is the salvific work of a merciful God, who would send His Only Begotten Son, The Eternal Word of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior into Hades to set all the sinners free who would accept Him as their Savior and God.

Fast forward into our times:

I do believe that God will give everyone a chance to know Him and to either accept or reject Him. However, I also believe that if God does speak to us today, and if we refuse to hear his voice, well, we have accepted Hell.

This is like the alcoholic who says, "Well, tomorrow I will stop drinking." even though the doctor tells him, one more drink and you are a dead man.

We cannot procrastinate when we hear the voice of the Lord. We may only get one chance, although the Lord certainly has given me many chances to repent of my many sins. And I thank Him for being so merciful to me a sinner.

If today you hear the voice of the Lord, harden not your hearts.

God is everywhere present and fills all things.

Even the Prophet David says in one of his psalms: If I descend into Hades, You (God) are there. I cannot escape You.

This tells us that even those in Hades experience the Presence of God. However, they experience God as a consuming fire.

Does God will that men suffer in Hell? No. We ourselves choose this. He offers us eternal life, but if we choose eternal death, He will not refuse that. Think of parents, who provide everything for their children, offering them the 'good life'. If those children as adults want to be drug dealers and choose a life of crime, the parents cannot stop them, can they?

So it is we who choose heaven or hell. God gives us the grace to accept Him but leaves that decision totally on our shoulders.

Will you accept Him today if He gives you that grace? I will pray for you and for all who honestly seek God because I want you to be with me in heaven.

Oh, yes. I forgot something....

Those who have died and who are righteous in the sight of the Lord, will go to Heaven where they will experience a pretaste of the Eternal life promised to those who love God. Those in heaven are referred to in the Holy Scriptures as the Cloud of Witnesses, especially those martyrs who died for the Holy Faith.

The martyrs knew that it was better to witness for the faith rather than to deny the Christ and live a temporal earthly live but experience eternal death afterwards. The blood of the martyrs was a powerful witness and helped lead many to Christ.
 
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salida

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BoneVulture said:
This is the angle in christianity that bothers me the most. Is a deity that condemns all non-believers to hell worth believing in?

A muslim farmer somewhere in the Turkish outback who has never wandered beyond his grazing lands - hell?
A hindu doctor who spent his life developing a better cure for malaria - hell?
A buddhist monk in the Tibetan mountains - hell?
An Aborigine who upholds the dream time tradition - hell?

Why isn't there a middle ground in the afterlife for good non-christians, similar to the concept of Limbo?
People arn't condemned to hell for not believing in Jesus, but they are already condemned because of their sin.

God doesn't send people to hell but we send ourselves. Everyone has the light of both creation and conscience. If we respond to the light we have, God will give us more light.

Acts 17:26-27 - From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us.

Gods fingerprints is His creation that we can see - He has given us many fingerprints; Romans 1:20- (mentions we are without excuse because of His creation).

Also, living for Christ is a moral decision not an intellectual one. There is overwhelming evidence of the Bible that one couldn't ignore - but people do because its a moral decision not an intellectual one. Purposely some of my family have chosen not to learn more about the Bible, but have preconceived notions and thoughts to satisfy their own lifestyle. And want to believe what they are comfortable with instead.
 
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