Higher truth (((Once again, the Messiah spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus in Aramaic. )))
I ask you to show me. Where?
I ask you to show me. Where?
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Aramaic, The True NT language?
- Thread starter SonWorshipper
- Start date
Acts*26
14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Translation notes in the NASB [which I am not fond of] for the term "Hebrew Tongue" define it as Jewish Aramaic. It is believed that the Messiah spoke a Galilian dialect.As I stated earlier, Hebrew words are written differently in Greek than Aramaic words are, so they can be distinguished. I did a major study on this with my group a while back. I may still have it.
He also spoke Aramaic at the crucifixion and in other places in scripture.
14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Translation notes in the NASB [which I am not fond of] for the term "Hebrew Tongue" define it as Jewish Aramaic. It is believed that the Messiah spoke a Galilian dialect.As I stated earlier, Hebrew words are written differently in Greek than Aramaic words are, so they can be distinguished. I did a major study on this with my group a while back. I may still have it.
He also spoke Aramaic at the crucifixion and in other places in scripture.
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Again it says Hebrew, I go with Hebrew Many bible notes are faulty.
Try looking under Sabbath, in you bible notes. What does it say?
A note is just that a note.
And I have not figured out your point.
I agreed that YAHSHUA problible Knew aramaic.
I'd say Greek and early latin To.
I'm saying that YAHadowtyot is a Set Apart language
My Companion does change Language to dialect but sticks with
Hebrew. No note changing it.
Can you show me your study?
It seems you are tring to make it out like
Hebrew was a dead language.
Try looking under Sabbath, in you bible notes. What does it say?
A note is just that a note.
And I have not figured out your point.
I agreed that YAHSHUA problible Knew aramaic.
I'd say Greek and early latin To.
I'm saying that YAHadowtyot is a Set Apart language
My Companion does change Language to dialect but sticks with
Hebrew. No note changing it.
Can you show me your study?
It seems you are tring to make it out like
Hebrew was a dead language.
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Some Aramaic that was spoken by The Messiah in scripture:
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [Mk 15:34]
Talitha koum, meaning "Little girl get up"[Mark 5.41]
"Ephphatha" meaning "open up"[Mark 7.34]
"Abba" meaning "Father". [Mark 14.36, Rom 8.15 & Gal 4.16]
There was an ossuary recently found that is believed to belong to James brother of Jesus. The inscription was written in block Aramaic. I believe that to be the common language of the Jews at that time. Hebrew was the language of the Temple. Diaspora had taken it's toll on the language. In scripture there is mention of the hellenic Jews.They had absorbed Greek culture and language.
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [Mk 15:34]
Talitha koum, meaning "Little girl get up"[Mark 5.41]
"Ephphatha" meaning "open up"[Mark 7.34]
"Abba" meaning "Father". [Mark 14.36, Rom 8.15 & Gal 4.16]
There was an ossuary recently found that is believed to belong to James brother of Jesus. The inscription was written in block Aramaic. I believe that to be the common language of the Jews at that time. Hebrew was the language of the Temple. Diaspora had taken it's toll on the language. In scripture there is mention of the hellenic Jews.They had absorbed Greek culture and language.
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simchat_torah
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I could be wrong, but I don't think that is HT's intention. (correct me if I'm wrong HT)
However, there is an overwhelming consistency among scholars that the Jews of the Galilean region most certainly did speak Aramaic, at least as their native tounge, during the first century.
I still hold to the idea that at the very least the Rabbis knew Hebrew, but most certainly I think that the populus knew Hebrew as well. Supposedly the Orthodox Siddur has changed very little in 2,250 years or so... and considering that the Rabbis had to read from Hebrew scrolls, they had to at minimum be familiar with Biblical Hebrew.
But I do think that HT has quite a valid point... the common language of the time certainly was Aramaic. Most likely this is the tounge that Y'shua spoke to his audience with, etc.
shalom.
yafet.
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sabian, just go to aramaicNT.org and you'll get alot of answers there to an ARAMAIC primacy of the b'surat YHshWH
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(((Some Aramaic that was spoken by The Messiah in scripture:
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [Mk 15:34]
Talitha koum, meaning "Little girl get up"[Mark 5.41]
"Ephphatha" meaning "open up"[Mark 7.34]
"Abba" meaning "Father". [Mark 14.36, Rom 8.15 & Gal 4.16]
There was an ossuary recently found that is believed to belong to James brother of Jesus. The inscription was written in block Aramaic. I believe that to be the common language of the Jews at that time. Hebrew was the language of the Temple. Diaspora had taken it's toll on the language. In scripture there is mention of the hellenic Jews.They had absorbed Greek culture and language.)))
This is how it was writen there is no proof that that is how it was siaid.
And the Ossuary is proven to be a fake.
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [Mk 15:34]
Talitha koum, meaning "Little girl get up"[Mark 5.41]
"Ephphatha" meaning "open up"[Mark 7.34]
"Abba" meaning "Father". [Mark 14.36, Rom 8.15 & Gal 4.16]
There was an ossuary recently found that is believed to belong to James brother of Jesus. The inscription was written in block Aramaic. I believe that to be the common language of the Jews at that time. Hebrew was the language of the Temple. Diaspora had taken it's toll on the language. In scripture there is mention of the hellenic Jews.They had absorbed Greek culture and language.)))
This is how it was writen there is no proof that that is how it was siaid.
And the Ossuary is proven to be a fake.
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simchat_torah
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The article was proven to be a hoax. The particular article that said the Ossuary was a hoax turned out to be a hoax itself... how ironic, nu?
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Following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., Rome crushed the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 C.E. The Roman army destroyed anything Jewish, especially religious scrolls and books, including their Torah. This was followed by the Catholic inquisitions in Europe, eradicating anything Jewish. The crusaders made fair game of the Jews, ruthlessly destroying any vestiges of Hebrew writings.
Thus, between the suppression carried out by the Romans and the later Crusades, any Hebrew copies of both Old and New Testament writings were lost. Only Greek copies survived. Neither are there any original Hebrew Old Testaments manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies.
An increasing number of competent Bible scholars now agree with scholar Charles Cutler Torrey (Documents of the Primitive Church) that the New Testament in whole or part was first written in Hebrew and only later translated into Greek. (Write us for a list of renowned Bible scholars who uphold an original Hebrew New Testament, as well as the ministudy, Was the New Testament Originally Greek?)
In the September 12, 1986 issue of The Washington Times, David Bivin notes that Yahshua, like His contemporaries, most likely spoke Hebrew, Bivin, the director for the Jerusalem School for the Study of the Gospels, also believes that the original account of Yahshuas life was written in Hebrew, not Greek of Aramaic. In addition, he and his Jerusalem scholars agree that by considering the Evangels Hebraic, many textual difficulties are cleared up, strongly suggesting that the Evangels were first written in Hebrew.
Even Martin Luther recognized the Hebrew roots of the New Testament. He wrote in Tischreden, Although the New Testament was written in Greek, it is full of Hebraisms and Hebrew expressions. It has therefore been aptly said that the Hebrews drink from the spring, the Greeks from the stream that flows from it, and the Latins from the downstream pool (translated by Pinchas E. Lapide in Hebrew in the Church, p.10).
Where is the justification for changing the Saviors Name? Even in a Greek context, there is no J or J sound in the Koine or in any Greek dialect known. The Greek New Testament of the Bible provides the basis for our present Latin and English translations. Obviously the J came from another source, as Greek has no phonetic equivalent of the letter J in its 24 characters of the alphabet. Neither does Hebrew. The words judge, journal, jack, jam, jet, jog, etc., likely would all be spelled beginning with the Greek iota (English I) and would be pronounced as ee. In English the letter j would be replaced by the letter i. We would read iudge, iournal, iack, iam, iet, iog, etc. Some orthographers would prefer that these examples begin with todays letter y instead of i.
We cannot ignore the fact that there was no letter J in ANY language until around the 15th century, and therefore must conclude that the name Jesus never existed before 500 years ago. Let us not forget that we read from a Hebrew Bible. It is the account of Yahwehs dealing with His people Israel. Yahweh spoke to a people who understood Hebrew. Yahweh is the Mighty One of the Hebrews. Remember also that there was no Jew before the time of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. So the Sacred Name is not Jewish.
The seeker of truth must not shy from the Hebrew roots of true Biblical faith, for we are children of Abraham, a Hebrew (Gen. 14:13). Hebrew means to cross over, and we are to cross over the falsity and error of this world and join in pure worship of Yahweh and His Son Yahshua.
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Thus, between the suppression carried out by the Romans and the later Crusades, any Hebrew copies of both Old and New Testament writings were lost. Only Greek copies survived. Neither are there any original Hebrew Old Testaments manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies.
An increasing number of competent Bible scholars now agree with scholar Charles Cutler Torrey (Documents of the Primitive Church) that the New Testament in whole or part was first written in Hebrew and only later translated into Greek. (Write us for a list of renowned Bible scholars who uphold an original Hebrew New Testament, as well as the ministudy, Was the New Testament Originally Greek?)
In the September 12, 1986 issue of The Washington Times, David Bivin notes that Yahshua, like His contemporaries, most likely spoke Hebrew, Bivin, the director for the Jerusalem School for the Study of the Gospels, also believes that the original account of Yahshuas life was written in Hebrew, not Greek of Aramaic. In addition, he and his Jerusalem scholars agree that by considering the Evangels Hebraic, many textual difficulties are cleared up, strongly suggesting that the Evangels were first written in Hebrew.
Even Martin Luther recognized the Hebrew roots of the New Testament. He wrote in Tischreden, Although the New Testament was written in Greek, it is full of Hebraisms and Hebrew expressions. It has therefore been aptly said that the Hebrews drink from the spring, the Greeks from the stream that flows from it, and the Latins from the downstream pool (translated by Pinchas E. Lapide in Hebrew in the Church, p.10).
Where is the justification for changing the Saviors Name? Even in a Greek context, there is no J or J sound in the Koine or in any Greek dialect known. The Greek New Testament of the Bible provides the basis for our present Latin and English translations. Obviously the J came from another source, as Greek has no phonetic equivalent of the letter J in its 24 characters of the alphabet. Neither does Hebrew. The words judge, journal, jack, jam, jet, jog, etc., likely would all be spelled beginning with the Greek iota (English I) and would be pronounced as ee. In English the letter j would be replaced by the letter i. We would read iudge, iournal, iack, iam, iet, iog, etc. Some orthographers would prefer that these examples begin with todays letter y instead of i.
We cannot ignore the fact that there was no letter J in ANY language until around the 15th century, and therefore must conclude that the name Jesus never existed before 500 years ago. Let us not forget that we read from a Hebrew Bible. It is the account of Yahwehs dealing with His people Israel. Yahweh spoke to a people who understood Hebrew. Yahweh is the Mighty One of the Hebrews. Remember also that there was no Jew before the time of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. So the Sacred Name is not Jewish.
The seeker of truth must not shy from the Hebrew roots of true Biblical faith, for we are children of Abraham, a Hebrew (Gen. 14:13). Hebrew means to cross over, and we are to cross over the falsity and error of this world and join in pure worship of Yahweh and His Son Yahshua.
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(((And then where does that leave the Dead Sea Scrolls?)))
Sorry I think you just misunderstood the Statement.
Neither are there any original Hebrew Old Testaments manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies.
It's Not saying no Hebrew scripts, It's saying that the scripts that are writen in Hebrew are not Original.
They are copies. Some of the the dead seas scrolls are Paleo
Hebrew ( sorry I know I spelled Paleo Wrong, Not in the spell check.)
But are copies of the of copies of the originial.
I'm not sure about the moabite stone? I can't remember.
Sorry I think you just misunderstood the Statement.
Neither are there any original Hebrew Old Testaments manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies.
It's Not saying no Hebrew scripts, It's saying that the scripts that are writen in Hebrew are not Original.
They are copies. Some of the the dead seas scrolls are Paleo
Hebrew ( sorry I know I spelled Paleo Wrong, Not in the spell check.)
But are copies of the of copies of the originial.
I'm not sure about the moabite stone? I can't remember.
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quote:
Neither are there any original Hebrew Old Testaments manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies.
HT:
[I see SW beat me to the punch
]
Dead sea scrolls Isaiah is 1000 years older than the oldest copy of the Masoretic text and lines up with each other quite nice. Those Masorites were great copyists. The point being here is that this scroll was from before the time of Yeshua.
quote:
Even Martin Luther recognized the Hebrew roots of the New Testament. He wrote in Tischreden, "Although the New Testament was written in Greek, it is full of Hebraisms and Hebrew expressions.
HT:
I agree because it was mostly written byJews[Luke is in discussion currently]. If a Russian man writes in English, his writing will still retain Russian analogies and idioms. Same with the writers of the Brit.
quote:
Where is the justification for changing the Savior's Name? Even in a Greek context, there is no J or J sound in the Koine or in any Greek dialect known. The Greek New Testament of the Bible provides the basis for our present Latin and English translations. Obviously the J came from another source, as Greek has no phonetic equivalent of the letter J in its 24 characters of the alphabet. Neither does Hebrew.
HT:
I have encountered this argument so many times, mostly from sacred name people. Eesho [Aramaic]or Yeshua [Hebrew]
very easily becomes Ieso [us].When the Greek is transliterated into English the I and the J are exchanged.If I remember
correctly, in the old versions of the scriptures, the Name was spelled Iesus.
Neither are there any original Hebrew Old Testaments manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies.
HT:
[I see SW beat me to the punch
]Dead sea scrolls Isaiah is 1000 years older than the oldest copy of the Masoretic text and lines up with each other quite nice. Those Masorites were great copyists. The point being here is that this scroll was from before the time of Yeshua.
quote:
Even Martin Luther recognized the Hebrew roots of the New Testament. He wrote in Tischreden, "Although the New Testament was written in Greek, it is full of Hebraisms and Hebrew expressions.
HT:
I agree because it was mostly written byJews[Luke is in discussion currently]. If a Russian man writes in English, his writing will still retain Russian analogies and idioms. Same with the writers of the Brit.
quote:
Where is the justification for changing the Savior's Name? Even in a Greek context, there is no J or J sound in the Koine or in any Greek dialect known. The Greek New Testament of the Bible provides the basis for our present Latin and English translations. Obviously the J came from another source, as Greek has no phonetic equivalent of the letter J in its 24 characters of the alphabet. Neither does Hebrew.
HT:
I have encountered this argument so many times, mostly from sacred name people. Eesho [Aramaic]or Yeshua [Hebrew]
very easily becomes Ieso [us].When the Greek is transliterated into English the I and the J are exchanged.If I remember
correctly, in the old versions of the scriptures, the Name was spelled Iesus.
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From the NIV [I am not fond of this translation]
Acts 26
13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[1] 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
It is translated as Aramaic here. Yeshua and Paul both spoke Aramaic in the scriptures, and it is noted as such. Also there is the issue of the Targums [written in Aramaic] Many Jewish rabbinical writings are also in Aramaic.
Acts 26
13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[1] 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
It is translated as Aramaic here. Yeshua and Paul both spoke Aramaic in the scriptures, and it is noted as such. Also there is the issue of the Targums [written in Aramaic] Many Jewish rabbinical writings are also in Aramaic.
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If Hebrew is the set apart language, then what is El referring to in this passage below? It was written in Hebrew to a Hebrew speaking people. Also, are there curse words in Hebrew ? Do people speak words of hate in Hebrew? Are there words that crept into the language during the captivity in Babylon, or from other cultures in diaspora? Biblical Hebrew is different than the Hebrew that is spoken in Israel today.
NOTE: Both scriptures below are translated from the Masoretic text.
Zephaniah 3 [KJV]
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination [is] to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, [even] all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9*For then will I turn to the people a *pure language *, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zephaniah 3 [literal]
8 Therefore, wait for Me, declares YHVH, for the day I rise up to the prey. For My judgment is to gather the nations, for Me to gather the kingdoms, to pour My fury out on them, all My hot anger. For all the earth shall be burned up with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then I will give a *clear lip* to the peoples, to call all of them by the name of YHVH , to serve Him with one shoulder.
Hebrew is a beautiful language, but I believe that El will give us something different in the New Jerusalem.
NOTE: Both scriptures below are translated from the Masoretic text.
Zephaniah 3 [KJV]
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination [is] to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, [even] all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9*For then will I turn to the people a *pure language *, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zephaniah 3 [literal]
8 Therefore, wait for Me, declares YHVH, for the day I rise up to the prey. For My judgment is to gather the nations, for Me to gather the kingdoms, to pour My fury out on them, all My hot anger. For all the earth shall be burned up with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then I will give a *clear lip* to the peoples, to call all of them by the name of YHVH , to serve Him with one shoulder.
Hebrew is a beautiful language, but I believe that El will give us something different in the New Jerusalem.
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HT quote
Also, are there curse words in Hebrew ? Do people speak words of hate in Hebrew? Are there words that crept into the language during the captivity in Babylon, or from other cultures in diaspora? Biblical Hebrew is different than the Hebrew that is spoken in Israel today.
I did not say that Hebrew was not correputed by man
Man corrupts every thing he touches.
But I do believe that Hebrew is the Language Given to us by YHWH.?
Yes even Hebrew is unpure, but only because of man.
I do believe that Adam spoke Hebrew. And there are Hebrew names before Moses and the flood.
Also, are there curse words in Hebrew ? Do people speak words of hate in Hebrew? Are there words that crept into the language during the captivity in Babylon, or from other cultures in diaspora? Biblical Hebrew is different than the Hebrew that is spoken in Israel today.
I did not say that Hebrew was not correputed by man
Man corrupts every thing he touches.
But I do believe that Hebrew is the Language Given to us by YHWH.?
Yes even Hebrew is unpure, but only because of man.
I do believe that Adam spoke Hebrew. And there are Hebrew names before Moses and the flood.
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(Hebrew is a beautiful language, but I believe that El will give us something different in the New Jerusalem.)
I think YHWH will clean up the language we corrupted.
I think YHWH will clean up the language we corrupted.
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quote:
I think YHWH will clean up the language we corrupted.
HT:
when the temple was defiled, He allowed it to be destroyed. I personally feel that He will give us a new language. Just my opinion.
I think YHWH will clean up the language we corrupted.
HT:
when the temple was defiled, He allowed it to be destroyed. I personally feel that He will give us a new language. Just my opinion.
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Righteous or Wicked?
Romans 5:7
Shlama Akhay,
Romans 5:7 in the GNT (Greek New Testament) contains a critical mistranslation. That this is a mistranslation from an Aramaic source is indisputable. The reading in the GNT is as follows:
For one would hardly die for a righteous δικαιος man; though perhaps for the good αγαθος man someone would dare even to die.
Perplexed? Good! Because this is a horrible mistranslation from the Aramaic!
In Aramaic, the word for "wicked" is ܪܰܫܶܥܝܳܐ (/rashe`yo'/ : SEDRA III #20309) - but the word for "blameless/innocent" is ܪܶܫܢܳܝܳܐ (/reshnoyo'/ : SEDRA III #20289) - there's only 1 letter difference, and both of those letters (ܥ and ܢ
Look at the two words again with the differing letter highlighted in red:
The Aramaic text of the ܦܶܫܺܛܬܳܐ (/peshittto'/ : Peshitta) reads:
Nor one would hardly die for a wicked ܪܰܫܶܥܝܳܐ (/rashe`yo'/) man; though perhaps for a good ܛܳܒܳܐ (/ttobo'/) man someone would dare even to die.
The point is that ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ (/msheekko'/ : The Messiah) died for the wicked as the very next verse is:
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
--Romans 5:8
ܫܠܡܐ ܘܒܘܪܟܬܐ-Paul Younan
Peshitta.org
NOW SABIAN, YOU AND I BOTH KNOW that this will NOT WORK IN HEBREW.
The wicked man is Rasha and what about a good man?
a tzaddik would it be? so there is a play in the Aramaic- YET there is no play in the Hebrew concerning this portion.
Both Aramaic and Hebrew have been corrupted.
It is my personal belief that there was a language that unified both aramaic and hebrew- in a sense, these languages are probably twins just with diffrences.
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It is my personal belief that there was a language that unified both aramaic and hebrew- in a sense, these languages are probably twins just with diffrences.
I believe Aramaic came from Hebrew. As I stated before there are names in Hebrwe that are before the flood when all was one language, But I will not argue the hebrew is corrupted by man. There are even two forms of Hebrew Paleo being the oldest. I know you know this but I but it in for those how do not . Paleo and Babylonion Hebrew.
I believe Aramaic came from Hebrew. As I stated before there are names in Hebrwe that are before the flood when all was one language, But I will not argue the hebrew is corrupted by man. There are even two forms of Hebrew Paleo being the oldest. I know you know this but I but it in for those how do not . Paleo and Babylonion Hebrew.
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