You are unworthy! Please go take a seat.

[*Starlight*]

sorry.
But, only the Cannon of Scripture is indeed God's Word.
and yes inspired by God, God's very words themselves.

Well, that's your personal belief, but I disagree with it. And there is more than one canon of the Bible.

how can it be understood in many ways???
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
the origional language in which this verse was written indicates that no one is literally translated "NO ONE, NOTHING"
Faith and belief in Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY to heaven.
many believe in universalism, but that does not make it truth.
It is a huge error, one that many will one day regret following, indeed, regret it for eternity without end.

Wow, that sounds evil. But again, you're just stating your personal belief that everyone who has different beliefs than you will "regret it for eternity without end". You can believe in something so evil, but I don't... I believe in love, justice, compassion, mercy... and all these things go against it.

I believe in the God that's in the bible. Not everyone is going to go to heaven. That is something that I have not conjured up. It's what the bible says. The Ot folks were saved by their faith in the promise that was to come, and we are saved by the promised that came to pass.The wicked and those who don't have Jesus will perish. Pray and ask God to show you and help you understand. He a a just and pure God, and those who do not want Him, make that choice, and there are consequences for that.

You're contradicting yourself. First you're saying that those who "don't have Jesus" (by the way, I have no idea what that means, but I guess you means "don't have a belief in Jesus", because a person isn't something you "have") will perish, and then you're saying that those who don't want him make a choice and don't go to heaven. Sorry, but these two can't be both right. Either a person doesn't go to heaven because they guessed the wrong religion, or they don't go to heaven because they don't want God. But when someone honestly believes that some other religion is true, it doesn't mean that they don't want God.

 

[Nadiine]

That's real easy for you to say. You'll never have to worry about dishonouring your family and being tortured and killed all for converting to another religion.

Many HAVE converted & DO convert! What does that say?

Mt. 10
17 "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; ​

18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. ​

Ask yourself, would you forsake your friends, your family, and your life for Islam or any other religion?

What did Jesus say? 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
and:

Mt 10
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ​

35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. ​

God said, whoever LOSES HIS LIFE will GAIN IT (eternally). How much stock are you placing in this life compared to the next?
Love of God comes first, and MANY have lost their lives for it!

Unbelievers are not wicked or evil doers, so I'm not sure why you bring up this Scripture.

Am I to believe YOU or God?

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?​

You post contradictions. If God wanted no one to perish, which I believe, then no one would perish.

That isn't a contradiction anymore than God doesn't want anyone to SIN, yet we ALL do. God didn't want Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge; yet they did.

There's a big difference btwn God's Will and His PERMISSIVE Will. He wants us to obey Him & never sin, but He ALLOWS US to disobey Him & sin.
He permits evil to be done, but uses it for GOOD later.

All these conflicts with what God wants and what God does doesn't make any sense. If God wants something, He is certainly wise enough to find a way to get it.

Again, God being CAPABLE of getting something, doesn't mean He does it. God COULD have made us all robots & recieved love from all humanity - but He CHOSE not to in His wisdom & sovereignty.

He did make the rules, so it's completely within his power to do whatever He wants

AHHHH, now there's a piece of truth... God CAN do things, He just doesn't always opt to do them in His perfect wisdom.

Nothing she posted was wrong or contradictory.

 

[JuJube]

Many HAVE converted & DO convert! What does that say?

Mt. 10
17 "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; ​

18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. ​

What did Jesus say? 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
and:

Mt 10
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ​

35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. ​

God said, whoever LOSES HIS LIFE will GAIN IT (eternally). How much stock are you placing in this life compared to the next?
Love of God comes first, and MANY have lost their lives for it!


Am I to believe YOU or God?

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?​

That isn't a contradiction anymore than God doesn't want anyone to SIN, yet we ALL do. God didn't want Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge; yet they did.

There's a big difference btwn God's Will and His PERMISSIVE Will. He wants us to obey Him & never sin, but He ALLOWS US to disobey Him & sin.
He permits evil to be done, but uses it for GOOD later.



Again, God being CAPABLE of getting something, doesn't mean He does it. God COULD have made us all robots & recieved love from all humanity - but He CHOSE not to in His wisdom & sovereignty.

AHHHH, now there's a piece of truth... God CAN do things, He just doesn't always opt to do them in His perfect wisdom.

Nothing she posted was wrong or contradictory.

Nadiine...good post. Thanks for answering. I couldn't have said it better.
WalkingforHim, I will say one thing. I am married to a nonbeliever who has a really hard time with my new beliefs. His family also do not realize what has cause me to change so dramatically.(not to mention where I work) I can't say that I am physically persecuted, but I am mentally and emotionally at times. I married my husband when I was not a Christian, and I do believe that it is scriptural to stay unless he decides to leave. It is hard. But in Rom 8:31 it says if God be for us, who can be against us. Rom 8:38, 39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Could my husband get angry at me one night after he's been drinking because of my beliefs...yes, I risk that, but my life is the Lord's now, and He knows all things. Like Paul says...to die is gain. I'm in a win win situation really.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

What did the Pharisees do that Jesus was unhappy with? They built traditions upon the word of God and held up the law above mercy. Considered themselves, being torah observant, better then others who were not strict in their observance. Spiritually proud they made themselves and their followers children of hell according to Jesus. This even though they went to synagogue regular, tithed religiously, prayed often, etc., and were very strict about following all the rules. Yet what ruled their hearts was a sense of superiority and pride, not, Love. They didn't do their works out of Love for God, yet, believed they did so. How can this be? Pride utterly blinds our hearts and like a sudden cold front, freezes and destroys the fruit of righteousness which are peace and joy. The result being a religious spirit, which talks the talk but lacks compassion and a heart for the lost and hurting.

God's compassion for the lost is overwhelming. Consider what he's done for us, for we are all lost, except for His grace. Somehow people become (in their own minds) sanctified and holier than thou because they are 'christians.' Rather we should be humbled realizing what we've bee rescued from and that, by no power of our own.... by His mercy and grace only. If we take this gift of grace and parade ourselves as therefor superior and puff up with pride what a wretched smell we send to the nostrils of God who shed His blood for all mankind.

 

[JuJube]

What did the Pharisees do that Jesus was unhappy with? They built traditions upon the word of God and held up the law above mercy. Considered themselves, being torah observant, better then others who were not strict in their observance. Spiritually proud they made themselves and their followers children of hell according to Jesus. This even though they went to synagogue regular, tithed religiously, prayed often, etc., and were very strict about following all the rules. Yet what ruled their hearts was a sense of superiority and pride, not, Love. They didn't do their works out of Love for God, yet, believed they did so. How can this be? Pride utterly blinds our hearts and like a sudden cold front, freezes and destroys the fruit of righteousness which are peace and joy. The result being a religious spirit, which talks the talk but lacks compassion and a heart for the lost and hurting.

God's compassion for the lost is overwhelming. Consider what he's done for us, for we are all lost, except for His grace. Somehow people become (in their own minds) sanctified and holier than thou because they are 'christians.' Rather we should be humbled realizing what we've bee rescued from and that, by no power of our own.... by His mercy and grace only. If we take this gift of grace and parade ourselves as therefor superior and puff up with pride what a wretched smell we send to the nostrils of God who shed His blood for all mankind.

Thanks for sharing some of your testimony back on post #86 ( I think it was) Sometimes it sure helps to know some background in understanding where a person is coming from. God bless.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I lost a special loved one in my life, a little girl, not my own but, she was so special to me our bond was deep, very deep. This rocked me to my core. Also, I suffered an injury which nearly paralyzed me and, caused years of intense suffering and trials. Everyone suffers pain and loss I know. The lessons learned during these incidents can make us bitter or they can forge new inroads to our depths from which the living waters flow.

I've shared a few other experiences here. Through suffering I've learned to be open to the love and compassion of God for suffering neighbors. Through loss, I've learned deep compassion for others who suffered loss. Through my own persecution of the man who Loved me into the Kingdom I've learned to Love those who hate Christ in me. Through memories of being spiritually dead and looking at religious people (I called them walking corpses back then) I recognize how I need to walk and shine before unbeliever's that they might see the hope we all have in Christ.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Many HAVE converted & DO convert! What does that say?

Mt. 10
17 "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;

18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

What did Jesus say? 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
and:

Mt 10
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

God said, whoever LOSES HIS LIFE will GAIN IT (eternally). How much stock are you placing in this life compared to the next?
Love of God comes first, and MANY have lost their lives for it!

That doesn't answer the question.

Would you forsake you friends, family, and your life over another religion that you didn't even know was true or not, because that's exactly what you asking those people to do.

It's real easy to say you should die for Christ safe in your home from anyone who would kill you for Christ.

You truely believe what you say, go over to Saudia Arabia and start a church.

Am I to believe YOU or God?

Believe whatever the hell you want, doesn't change the truth that unbelievers are neihter wicked, or evil doers. If anything, the reverse is true. Christianity just seems to make most people arrogant in their "salvation".

There's a big difference btwn God's Will and His PERMISSIVE Will. He wants us to obey Him & never sin, but He ALLOWS US to disobey Him & sin.
He permits evil to be done, but uses it for GOOD later.

Quote:
All these conflicts with what God wants and what God does doesn't make any sense. If God wants something, He is certainly wise enough to find a way to get it.
Again, God being CAPABLE of getting something, doesn't mean He does it. God COULD have made us all robots & recieved love from all humanity - but He CHOSE not to in His wisdom & sovereignty.

AHHHH, now there's a piece of truth... God CAN do things, He just doesn't always opt to do them in His perfect wisdom.

Nothing she posted was wrong or contradictory.

Allowing us to sin, and actively doing something God doesn't want to do are two different things. If God wanted no one to perish, no one would perish, since the decision is ultimately in His hands.

 

[christsblood]

We are not supposed to consider ourselves of this world. While we should love and show compassion to others we should consider ourselves separate from them as well. Guess I'm a walking corpse by some standards which is fine since judging is judging no matter who you are.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

We are not supposed to consider ourselves of this world. While we should love and show compassion to others we should consider ourselves separate from them as well. Guess I'm a walking corpse by some standards which is fine since judging is judging no matter who you are.

Well, I related my experience and how I saw things (pre-Christ). It's not a universal inditement, it's simply, in part, the motive for some things I say here. The point being, we need to experience God's Love, Peace and Joy and that Love, Peace and Joy must flow through us so others (people in and out of the kingdom) can see the power of God. There is hope. It is not seen in miserable judgmental 'holier then thou' personalities. It's exhibited through people who allow God's Love to pour through them.

If I share what I've experienced I'm criticized? I can't make sense of that. Praise be to God. All things work to the good for those who Love him and are called according to his purpose.

I pray you and I.... everyone on this forum come to that place and fulfill the calling of God upon our lives... that His word go forth from us mixed with a spirit of love and compassion and find its way to good ground.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Thanks for sharing some of your testimony back on post #86 ( I think it was) Sometimes it sure helps to know some background in understanding where a person is coming from. God bless.

Thanks JuJube,

I know I sound terribly critical to some and, I'm trying to learn here how not to do that. It's also a practice in being non-defensive. Here, I get caught up in defending things I've said, and responding to unkind remarks. Even throwing them back (big mistake). That's my ego, it's not about being right or wrong it's about walking in Christ and being willing to see my own faults and the grace to grow.

In these discussions I've seen some glaring faults of my own and am taking them to the Lord. I'm so blessed that, God is patient, kind and loving. The more subdued the ego becomes the more wonderful life becomes because God's Spirit is so beautiful to behold, so wonderful to experience, fulfilling us in measures that go beyond what words can describe. It is such a blessing to go before the Lord with tears and knowing His forgiveness, mercy and love are there, knowing His power will deliver you, and what you request for (more of Him) will flow into you and out through you making your life fruitful!

 

[christsblood]

If I share what I've experienced I'm criticized? I can't make sense of that. Praise be to God.

I can't believe you said that with a straight face. You criticize everyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm sorry I am not willing to engage in conversation with you further when you can't be honest.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Listen man, nonbelievers have no business in church leadership. None what so ever. Show me an example of a non-believer leading a church in the NT.

Send them to worship services at our Parish.
We will love them right into the Kingdom.

We have room for one more sinner if we all move over a few feet.

 

[JuJube]

Thanks JuJube,

I know I sound terribly critical to some and, I'm trying to learn here how not to do that. It's also a practice in being non-defensive. Here, I get caught up in defending things I've said, and responding to unkind remarks. Even throwing them back (big mistake). That's my ego, it's not about being right or wrong it's about walking in Christ and being willing to see my own faults and the grace to grow.

In these discussions I've seen some glaring faults of my own and am taking them to the Lord. I'm so blessed that, God is patient, kind and loving. The more subdued the ego becomes the more wonderful life becomes because God's Spirit is so beautiful to behold, so wonderful to experience, fulfilling us in measures that go beyond what words can describe. It is such a blessing to go before the Lord with tears and knowing His forgiveness, mercy and love are there, knowing His power will deliver you, and what you request for (more of Him) will flow into you and out through you making your life fruitful!

Amen!

 

[Nadiine]

I can't believe you said that with a straight face. You criticize everyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm sorry I am not willing to engage in conversation with you further when you can't be honest.

Oops, I meant to quote Newman...

If I share what I've experienced I'm criticized? I can't make sense of that. Praise be to God. All things work to the good for those who Love him and are called according to his purpose.

I pray you and I.... everyone on this forum come to that place and fulfill the calling of God upon our lives... that His word go forth from us mixed with a spirit of love and compassion and find its way to good ground.

Newman, read your OP. The OP is written as a slam right off the bat. "you aren't worthy! Please go take a seat".
That wasn't lovingly sharing a situation in order to get some resolve or input to it, it was a harsh accusation from what I see. (one we can't even hear from the 2nd parties involved I might add). Just your word.

The OP tells me alot - would you say that of someone you loved dearly as a brother in Christ? I doubt it. (I wouldn't).

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I can't believe you said that with a straight face. You criticize everyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm sorry I am not willing to engage in conversation with you further when you can't be honest.

We keep handing each other these back handed insults. It's not good of us to do so. I'm not being honest = I'm a liar.

If I relate an experience I had pre-christ and you identify with the negative I've expressed in the narrative, perhaps it's your conscience?

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Oops, I meant to quote Newman...

Newman, read your OP. The OP is written as a slam right off the bat. "you aren't worthy! Please go take a seat".
That wasn't lovingly sharing a situation in order to get some resolve or input to it, it was a harsh accusation from what I see. (one we can't even hear from the 2nd parties involved I might add). Just your word.

The OP tells me alot - would you say that of someone you loved dearly as a brother in Christ? I doubt it. (I wouldn't).

How is the OP a slam? I'm giving an example. It's a characakture of how we treat each other and, in truth how many 'christians' feel. Perhaps, the minister in the story would have worded what he said in a more polite way but (in a real-life scenario) would he then be honest? What was said is the true opinion I've heard expressed on this forum regarding how people feel about non believer's.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

dbl post

 

[MrsJoy]

Well, that's your personal belief, but I disagree with it. And there is more than one canon of the Bible.

that is your sad opinion.
but NOT the topic of this thread

Wow, that sounds evil. But again, you're just stating your personal belief that everyone who has different beliefs than you will "regret it for eternity without end". You can believe in something so evil, but I don't... I believe in love, justice, compassion, mercy... and all these things go against it.

not personal belief.
God's Word
now, if you choose to ignore God's Word that is your option and you will be the one to answer for it.
God is not just fluffy lovey dovey.
He is righteous and holy.
whether you believe it or not.

You're contradicting yourself. First you're saying that those who "don't have Jesus" (by the way, I have no idea what that means, but I guess you means "don't have a belief in Jesus", because a person isn't something you "have") will perish, and then you're saying that those who don't want him make a choice and don't go to heaven. Sorry, but these two can't be both right.

i didn't contridict.
you either have faith in Him or you do not.
YOu can't "slip through" on goodness, only through HIs blood.

Either a person doesn't go to heaven because they guessed the wrong religion, or they don't go to heaven because they don't want God. But when someone honestly believes that some other religion is true, it doesn't mean that they don't want God.

it has NOT a thing to do with religion and everything to do with a relationship with God.
"no one comes to the Father but through me." it is not about guessing, it's about obedience.

again, this is not the topic of this thread and I wish to respect that.
if you wish to procede with this further, please take it somewhere else.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Scripture does not say when we die we will be judged by our intentions or our hearts.
nowhere can it be found in Scripture that "if your heart is pure, you are fine, you are saved."
nope.

[bible]matthew 5:8[/bible]

 

[MrsJoy]

None of the people I spoke about were following scripture they were acting out of pride. This is what I'm pointing out. By the way, I am not hurt by their actions, I now understand, pity and pray for people who fall into that trap.

i was addressing the situations that you have CREATED not lived through.
I have already stated that i did not agree with how you were treated.

It's rather absurd for you to assume my purpose is avenge past hurts. I'm sharing what I believe in hopes some will examine their hearts regarding the matter. How could you possibly speak to motive, when you don't know who I am or who motivates me. Careful, careful, careful...

i did not say that you were.
I said that because some abused scripure it did not mean that everyone who stands on scripture is a hypocrite.

I was not burned you have no idea what you are talking about. These things that happened to me were great lessons and taught me compassion and pity for those outside the faith who have to try and see through the veil of the self righteous to see Christ. I was so fortunate to be led to Messiah by a man who walked in Love and shared the truth of Messiah with me. Had he been one of these other self righteous hypocrites I might never had seen.

i was simply replying to what you posted and the manner in which you posted, nothing else.

You don't know how grateful I am to people like you for so plainly showing forth the attitude you display contrasted to the truth that God is Love. It makes my work so much easier, albeit somewhat tedious... endless quibbling....

how do i demonstrate a lack of love?
because i stand on demonstrating it as Christ actually did and how Scripture clearly lays out?
because i have said that we should leave the lost and needy out in the cold?
oh wait, but I didn't. I said that i believed the church doesn't always do what it has been commanded, but that we are indeed commanded and should be taking care of them.