You are unworthy! Please go take a seat.

[JuJube]

That doesn't stop God from accepting other people's worship and prayers.

Unlike you, I don't believe in a god that would forsake His own creation just because he happened ton be born in the wrong part of the world were Christianity is a death sentence.

Jesus said that if the world hated Him, we could be sure that it would hate us too...if we truely are following Him.John 15:18,20 He also said that whosoever loves his life will lose it, but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. We really shouldn't be so concerned with our time here on earth. We are pilgrims on our way to our new home. This life is but a vapor. I didn't mean to sound harsh, but God made it plain that salvation is in His Son only. Acts 4:12 there is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved. That's God's provision. That's God's way.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Listen JW,here's the deal, they have that RIGHT to reject rock music, like you have the RIGHT to like it & promote it in the church.

I didn't say anything different. I just gave examples of things that happened because of traditions and differences of opinions and how unfavorably christians treat each other. I don't think they had the right by any means to say I was following the devil.

This is how it works, just becuz you disagree with this "fundamentalist", doesn't make him the evil devil to be judged & accused either.
It works both ways. We're to love even the ones we don't agree with & bless those who curse us. Even the ones we find legalistic. I know it's not easy.
But he doesn't have to like or want Rock music... & there isn't anything wrong with that. I honor that as a matter of fact.

I can't say he had much tact in HOW he did it.

Man, I was like three months old in the Lord when that guy had me over there to his house. I didn't know I was being evaluated till later.

As far as this other pastor 'grilling you about your beliefs', I don't know what you were answering or which questions he was asking - he had every right to ask your beliefs as he did.
Just claiming God's grace alone, while not being able to answer direct doctrinal questions IS a problem for someone leading a ministry at a church & depending on your answers, I might have come to the same conclusion.
Claiming Jesus doesn't make one saved, their beliefs in WHICH JESUS/GOD & the gospel DOES. It makes all the difference and I don't just accept generalized statements Christians make (esp. not these days with scripture under attack as it is).

Well I told you what the gist of my answers were I'm very simplistic about my faith, I think. Really, he had no right to grill me he worked there also, he wasn't my superior. He was just a mean spirited "christian" who couldn't handle the fact that I wasn't dogmatic like he was. I can't imagine falling in with a crowd like that.

I can go as far as to agree the guy that rejects the gifts could have used more tact and kindness, but I don't know enough about the 2nd scenario to form a proper opinion without enough facts.

By relating these stories I was just giving examples of how people who call themselves christian treat one another. We need to examine our Spirit (myself too) and walk in Love. It's because of self-righteousness that they do occur. Not loving admonitions.

 

[MrsJoy]

Do you mean the Bible? Not everyone believes that it's all God's word.

the Truth is the Truth whether or not it is believed to be so.
I can believe with all my heart that the sky is green, not blue, but that does not change the colour of the sky.
And God will judge everyone , living and dead in accordance with how they lived.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Jesus said that if the world hated Him, we could be sure that it would hate us too...if we truely are following Him.John 15:18,20 He also said that whosoever loves his life will lose it, but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. We really shouldn't be so concerned with our time here on earth. We are pilgrims on our way to our new home. This life is but a vapor. I didn't mean to sound harsh, but God made it plain that salvation is in His Son only. Acts 4:12 there is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved. That's God's provision. That's God's way.

I agree with the above.

 

[MrsJoy]

I agree, WHAT THE???

Ever notice how EVIL serious Christians are painted out to be lately?
Like what idiot in their right mind would even SAY something so rude & ludicrous in the same sentences. lolol



Read Paul's guidelines for leadership in the church - if you have a problem with them, then take it up with God directly, we're only following HIS program.

 

[united4Peace]

the Truth is the Truth whether or not it is believed to be so.
I can believe with all my heart that the sky is green, not blue, but that does not change the colour of the sky.
And God will judge everyone , living and dead in accordance with how they lived.

I believe and this is just what I believe that God judges more of what is in one's Heart than how one lives.

Isnt it Grace, not works?

 

[MrsJoy]

Well we know that God is real...
So take Genesis for example...

Some Christians believe in the Big bang and Evolution (as I do)...others are Young Earth Creationists, Some Christians take Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden to be literal while others dont...others take it to be the Arthors way of explaining the Fall...

Same with Job...some Christians look at Job as being a Historical person, others do not...

Book of Revelation some believe will happen, and some believe have already happened.
I was told once by a Minister to not be scared to read the Book of Revelation as it was written in Code, because they had to back then or they would have been killed (spreading the word about Christ), that most of what had been written had happened.

As I said Im not even going to pretend I know everything about the Bible...I dont. But the Bible was not meant to use as a Throw this passage and that passage to use in a war of war to prove one's point.
No no no ....The Bible not meant for that as we all are going to interpret things differently.
Im sorry if you and I have different outlooks though.
It doesnt mean Im any less of a Christian than you. I guess we are different types of Christians.
As I said peace to you and God Bless.

again, you either believe the Bible is God's inspired word, or you do not.
it's either God's Words or mens.
there's no in-between. the middle of the road
and no, it doesn't make sense to our human logic.
because we are-shock of all shocks, human, not God.

 

[MrsJoy]

I was called to ministry using music as a tool, many years ago. The group I was in ostracized me for following God's leading and, accused me of leaving God and serving the devil because it was rock music. By today's standards what I did then is not really considered rock any more. Today I am friends with that group and they have no problem with my music because it is now accepted by today's church traditions.

A fundamentalist Christian who doesn't believe in the gifts of the spirit invited me over to his house for diner. During this interview he discovered I what I believed. When I invited him over to my house (to return the favor) he said, "I can not fellowship with a brother in error" according to his faith, my faith in the operation of the gifts is a teaching of the devil.

Many so-called Christian attitudes are injurious and pharisaical.

THESE are not the type of situations that you have referenced in your various threads on this topic.
I would agree that such were horrid, ugly and unbiblical.

but, just b/c some have hurt you by acting in this very unChrist like way does not mean that actually following Scripture is hypocritial.
how absurd.

Full of pride who are so critical and full of judgment the already narrow road becomes like tight rope. I believe these, are like the pharisee Jesus rebuke: blind leading the blind, and, who don't enter heaven themselves and prevent those who would.

again...those who add to God's Word totally fit this bill.
NOT everyone who chooses to stand by Scripture and the principles found therein.

I remember working for this christian organisation as a youth counselor. This one fellow who was a pastor came and questioned me about my faith, asking me point by point many many questions. When I couldn't satisfactorally answer his questions he said angrily "You don't know what you believe do you?" I told him I believeed in the saving Grace of God through the sacrifice of Christ, walking in righteousness, love, peace and treating others like I'd like to be treated. This wasn't enough for him.

again, because you were burned does not make all true christians hypocrits. it means those particular people treated you that way.

 

[Nadiine]

I didn't say anything different. I just gave examples of things that happened because of traditions and differences of opinions and how unfavorably christians treat each other. I don't think they had the right by any means to say I was following the devil.

I see it as more preference in worship than 'tradition' (as in bad tradition). You attribute tradition as their motive when there's actually nothing wrong with tradition if it's Godly and/or good.

Man, I was like three months old in the Lord when that guy had me over there to his house. I didn't know I was being evaluated till later.

Well, he probly didn't realize that at the time... I'm not so much siding WITH them, as I am pointing out that we are just as responsible/guilty of pointing at others for their 'wrong' ways as they are for pointing out ours.

I'm just working to show the 2 sides of this & that we shouldn't be so quick to leap to judgments becuz of someone's behaviour or different beliefs (allbeit traditional/fundamental) from ours.
In short, I'm trying to seek unity & understanding on your/our side for those who are fundamental. We need to equally empathize that their seeing what THEY respect and call worship being run over by young kids who burst in with their electric guitars & drumsets, forcing them to "get with it" or get out of the way....

You see where I'm going with how THEY view it? Granted, they aren't perfect - but I empathize with how they feel when they see the youth coming in & forcing wilder worship & 'gifts' being the focus etc.
It's foreign to them & they don't HAVE to like it.

At our church they have 3 worship services; the earliest is for the older adults - it's traditional & quiet.
The 2nd service is for the younger families with a regular praise band w/ guitars & drums & big screen videos. The 3rd is more rock band for the youth.

Everyone gets what they want & how they feel most comfortable in worship. I LOVE THAT option.

Well I told you what the gist of my answers were I'm very simplistic about my faith, I think. Really, he had no right to grill me he worked there also, he wasn't my superior. He was just a mean spirited "christian" who couldn't handle the fact that I wasn't dogmatic like he was. I can't imagine falling in with a crowd like that.

Well, there you go with another judgment... do you at all see that you're doing what YOU dislike others doing in judging you?
You don't know what his motive was, you just claim he's mean spirited.

By relating these stories I was just giving examples of how people who call themselves christian treat one another. We need to examine our Spirit (myself too) and walk in Love. It's because of self-righteousness that they do occur. Not loving admonitions.

And how do YOU treat these 2 that you complain about to point fingers at them? Do YOU not feel self righteously correct?

I'm saying, WE HAVE TO SEEK UNITY IN LOVE IN THE CHURCH, you have to be a part of that, or you become the very person that you're pointing at others for.
Hypocrisy.
LOVE covers a multitude of sins, we're all responsible even when wronged not to think or do wrong against those who we feel wronged by.

I hope you're seeking unity - & I know it's easier said than done, but I've had plenty of people that have wronged me; in and out of the church. I have to do the same. We all come from different places & we all fail (each other)...

With all that said, I agree with you, we need to treat each other well - all of us & that even needs to occur when we feel wronged or offended by others. Chances are, they don't even realize how they've offended us.

 

[MrsJoy]

There have been many people in all religions and cultures, who wrote texts because they felt inspired by God... But it doesn't mean that everything they wrote is God's word, because they wrote everything from their own point of view... based on their personal experiences, and influenced by their opinions and culture. But it also doesn't mean that their writings are worthless... there are many wise and inspirational religious teachings in many holy texts, including the Bible...

sorry.
But, only the Cannon of Scripture is indeed God's Word.
and yes inspired by God, God's very words themselves.

 

[MrsJoy]

That doesn't stop God from accepting other people's worship and prayers.

then how do you explain away the Scriptures tha say so?
Proverbs 28:9
If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.
those who do not obey God's law do not have their prayers heard.
Proverbs 15:8
The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked, but the prayer of the upright pleases him.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.
Psalm 34: 15The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
16The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
it is indeed a man-made idea and not founded in Truth.

Unlike you, I don't believe in a god that would forsake His own creation just because he happened ton be born in the wrong part of the world were Christianity is a death sentence.

God does not wish any to perish.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Matthew 18:14
In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.


but the fact of the matter is, that if we have not accepted Christ as our personal Saviour we are indeed doomed to an eternity in hell.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

 

[MrsJoy]

So do you believe that God doesn't care at all for people who don't guess the correct religion? Personally, I believe in a universal God... the God who is perfect, and who loves all people, no matter what way they are using to get closer to him, or if they are even aware of his existence... I don't believe that God only limited to what conservative Christianity says about him.

As for that quote, it can be understood in many different ways...

how can it be understood in many ways???
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
the origional language in which this verse was written indicates that no one is literally translated "NO ONE, NOTHING"
Faith and belief in Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY to heaven.
many believe in universalism, but that does not make it truth.
It is a huge error, one that many will one day regret following, indeed, regret it for eternity without end.

 

[MrsJoy]

This is how it works, just becuz you disagree with this "fundamentalist", doesn't make him the evil devil to be judged & accused either.
It works both ways. We're to love even the ones we don't agree with & bless those who curse us. Even the ones we find legalistic. I know it's not easy.
But he doesn't have to like or want Rock music... & there isn't anything wrong with that. I honor that as a matter of fact.

very good points made.

As far as this other pastor 'grilling you about your beliefs', I don't know what you were answering or which questions he was asking - he had every right to ask your beliefs as he did.
Just claiming God's grace alone, while not being able to answer direct doctrinal questions IS a problem for someone leading a ministry at a church & depending on your answers, I might have come to the same conclusion.
Claiming Jesus doesn't make one saved, their beliefs in WHICH JESUS/GOD & the gospel DOES. It makes all the difference and I don't just accept generalized statements Christians make (esp. not these days with scripture under attack as it is).

it does make a lot of difference.
we are called to always have an anwer for the reason for the hope that is in us.
and if we are in the position of counseling young people ALL the more so.
I doubt he would have walked up to you and asked you those questions if you were not in such a position.
to take offense at such would be equal to getting offended if one asked you why you were qualified for another job and you could not give an adequate reason.

 

[MrsJoy]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind in regards to the so called church leader.

and they shouldn't have any standards??
they shouldn't see if they are up to par with leading and counseling young people?
rediculous.
that is like hiring a man to do a complicated job without first interviewing him.
not to mention that leaders have a higher responsibility that they must answer for.
James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[JuJube]

So do you believe that God doesn't care at all for people who don't guess the correct religion? Personally, I believe in a universal God... the God who is perfect, and who loves all people, no matter what way they are using to get closer to him, or if they are even aware of his existence... I don't believe that God only limited to what conservative Christianity says about him.

As for that quote, it can be understood in many different ways...

I believe in the God that's in the bible. Not everyone is going to go to heaven. That is something that I have not conjured up. It's what the bible says. The Ot folks were saved by their faith in the promise that was to come, and we are saved by the promised that came to pass.The wicked and those who don't have Jesus will perish. Pray and ask God to show you and help you understand. He a a just and pure God, and those who do not want Him, make that choice, and there are consequences for that.

 

[MrsJoy]

I believe and this is just what I believe that God judges more of what is in one's Heart than how one lives.

Isnt it Grace, not works?

Scripture does not say when we die we will be judged by our intentions or our hearts.
nowhere can it be found in Scripture that "if your heart is pure, you are fine, you are saved."
nope.
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
But if you Confess with your mouth that jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness (not if we have good intentions).
if we think we are ok, then we don't realize that we are indeed sinners.
if we are ok then we don't need a Saviour.
Christ came for a reason, and it wasn't because we were ok and are juged by good intentions.

In fact, if you want to go by the "heart" way...God's Word says that our hearts are not good, but WICKED.
so on that I will agree.
He will see the sin and wickedness and will judge accordingly.
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

 

[koban4max]

Scripture does not say when we die we will be judged by our intentions or our hearts.
nowhere can it be found in Scripture that "if your heart is pure, you are fine, you are saved."
nope.
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
But if you Confess with your mouth that jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness (not if we have good intentions).
if we think we are ok, then we don't realize that we are indeed sinners.
if we are ok then we don't need a Saviour.
Christ came for a reason, and it wasn't because we were ok and are juged by good intentions.

In fact, if you want to go by the "heart" way...God's Word says that our hearts are not good, but WICKED.
so on that I will agree.
He will see the sin and wickedness and will judge accordingly.
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

WHat's your definition of "believe?"

 

[MrsJoy]

WHat's your definition of "believe?"

i am speaking of Believing that we are sinners, lost without hope apart from a Saviour.
not a loose belief in God.
even the demons believe in God-big deal.
James2:19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
believing that there is a God does not saved make one.
Believing on Jesus as our saviour, confessing our sins and asking HIM to be Lord of our lives (key) is what I am speaking of.
Mark 16: 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
John 3:15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

THESE are not the type of situations that you have referenced in your various threads on this topic.
I would agree that such were horrid, ugly and unbiblical.

but, just b/c some have hurt you by acting in this very unChrist like way does not mean that actually following Scripture is hypocritial.
how absurd.

None of the people I spoke about were following scripture they were acting out of pride. This is what I'm pointing out. By the way, I am not hurt by their actions, I now understand, pity and pray for people who fall into that trap.

It's rather absurd for you to assume my purpose is avenge past hurts. I'm sharing what I believe in hopes some will examine their hearts regarding the matter. How could you possibly speak to motive, when you don't know who I am or who motivates me. Careful, careful, careful...

again...those who add to God's Word totally fit this bill.
NOT everyone who chooses to stand by Scripture and the principles found therein.

again, because you were burned does not make all true christians hypocrits. it means those particular people treated you that way.[/QUOTE

I was not burned you have no idea what you are talking about. These things that happened to me were great lessons and taught me compassion and pity for those outside the faith who have to try and see through the veil of the self righteous to see Christ. I was so fortunate to be led to Messiah by a man who walked in Love and shared the truth of Messiah with me. Had he been one of these other self righteous hypocrites I might never had seen.

You don't know how grateful I am to people like you for so plainly showing forth the attitude you display contrasted to the truth that God is Love. It makes my work so much easier, albeit somewhat tedious... endless quibbling....

 

[WalkingforHim]

Jesus said that if the world hated Him, we could be sure that it would hate us too...if we truely are following Him.John 15:18,20 He also said that whosoever loves his life will lose it, but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. We really shouldn't be so concerned with our time here on earth. We are pilgrims on our way to our new home. This life is but a vapor. I didn't mean to sound harsh, but God made it plain that salvation is in His Son only. Acts 4:12 there is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved. That's God's provision. That's God's way.

That's real easy for you to say. You'll never have to worry about dishonouring your family and being tortured and killed all for converting to another religion.

Ask yourself, would you forsake your friends, your family, and your life for Islam or any other religion?

And God will judge everyone , living and dead in accordance with how they lived.

So the non-believers have nothing to worry about then?

Proverbs 28:9
If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.
those who do not obey God's law do not have their prayers heard.
Proverbs 15:8
The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked, but the prayer of the upright pleases him.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.
Psalm 34: 15The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
16The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Unbelievers are not wicked or evil doers, so I'm not sure why you bring up this Scripture.

God does not wish any to perish.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Matthew 18:14
In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.


but the fact of the matter is, that if we have not accepted Christ as our personal Saviour we are indeed doomed to an eternity in hell.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

You post contradictions. If God wanted no one to perish, which I believe, then no one would perish. It is God. All these conflicts with what God wants and what God does doesn't make any sense. If God wants something, He is certainly wise enough to find a way to get it. He did make the rules, so it's completely within his power to do whatever He wants.