would God ever lead someone away from the Church?

[kisstheson]

bene you are going to kill me... but your argument could easily go both ways. think of those who were believing in Christ. dissenters of the Roman Church who were burned at the stake.

*runs for cover*

 

[narnia59]

wasn't C.S. Lewis a protestant?

Agnostic turned Anglican.

 

[Rhamiel]

Nothing...because they in good conscience trusted in Jesus as their savior. not every Christian in heaven is RC. will you be glad to see me there? Of course!!!

not to sound mean, but that is kind of a non sequitur, no one is saying only Catholics will go to heaven, several people have posted that already. And every Christian in heaven will be Catholic, they might not have been Catholic when they died, but there is only one Church and in heaven with Jesus we will all be perfectly united

 

[kisstheson]

Catholic yes but Roman?

 

[kisstheson]

Agnostic turned Anglican.

Okay what made me wonder was his good friend tolkien was catholic, correct?

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholic yes but Roman?

Well Roman only refers to Latin Rite Catholic, I do not think there will be need for rites in Heaven.
Oh and yeah Tolkien was Catholic, it was, in part, because of Tolkien and other Christian friends that Lewis became interested in the Christian Faith

 

[AMDG]

Catholic yes but Roman?

The Catholic Church is includes the Latin Rite (Roman) and several Eastern Rites. They are all in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). The name "Roman Catholic" was actually coined by some Protestants (as an insult) who wanted to be called "catholic" (universal) too. The Church wisely embraced the word and took the "sting" out of it so much that most of us now think that the Church's name is "Roman Catholic" even when it's not.

Sorry, calling the one Catholic Church merely "Roman Catholic" or "RCC" is a pet peeve with me.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

this question is like "would God ever lead people to reject the Bible?"
why would He lead people agianst the truth? there might be people who do not believe the Bible is the word of God but still love Him
but He never put that idea in their minds

good analogy

In the last book of the Chronicles of Narnia (The Last Battle) there is a chapter called "How the Dwarfs Refused to be Taken In". No matter how much anyone (including Aslan) tried to persuade them of the truth of heaven all around them, they could not see it because they weren't going to be 'fooled' by anyone.

"You see", said Aslan. "They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out."

I would think that's probably a pretty accurate description of 'then what happens'.

wasn't C.S. Lewis a protestant?

he was Anglican.. used to be an agnostic

Give it time...
I know of so very few who do not return.

The Eucharist is so powerful - it led my brother back because he craved Jesus in the Eucharist.

And i have seen reverting stories in OBOB and i have seen it happen to others in life.

So - give it time. They will return eventually.
Which reminds me - have to pray for my cousins - they all left to become what they say is born again.

HUGS

so very true

Nothing...because they in good conscience trusted in Jesus as their savior. not every Christian in heaven is RC. will you be glad to see me there? Of course!!!

well what we are saying is different. We're saying, let's say a person meets God in Heaven, and asks Him.. so what was the truth all along? And God says, the Catholic Church. And the person REFUSES to accept this... maybe says, "I don't want heaven then if 'Mary and Pope worshipping' is true! this is all false!! where's the real heaven?!" etc.

well that's just an imaginary hypothetical scenario. maybe something you'd put in a novel (like Narnia). But still..
see if a person TRULY loves Jesus, they'd put HIS will above their own they wouldn't reject ANYTHING He says.

what we're talking about is NOT people who are not Catholic. We're talking about those who refuse this possibility and God's grace.

 

[benedictaoo]

bene you are going to kill me... but your argument could easily go both ways. think of those who were believing in Christ. dissenters of the Roman Church who were burned at the stake.

*runs for cover*

What are you talking about?

Ppl were burned at the stake becuase back in those days, ppl took their faith seriously, more so then we do now. truth was worth protecting.

Your Reformers also burned their fair share at the stakes so i have no idea what you are referring to and why. Problem with them is, they burned ppl trying to protect an error and not the truth. But i digress.

We do not have civil laws now like we had then. back then it was a civil crime to be a heretic. You taught error, that meant you were putting another persons soul in danger, you were punished.

We do not do that anymore...

Catholics are so not the only ones who did that either. Protestant reformers did as well and guess what? they did it way more then Catholics, but i digress...

the rub is this, no, no one can make that argument and be right about it. This is objective. There is but ONE truth, KTS, and Catholicism under the Pope is it. Bottom line.

So there aren't not bunches of truth out there and the one and only truth matters to our salvation, Christ died to give you truth, not error.

So I can present the argument and be right. Another surly can present the same argument, but they aren't right. that's just how it is.

 

[benedictaoo]

Nothing...because they in good conscience trusted in Jesus as their savior. not every Christian in heaven is RC. will you be glad to see me there? Of course!!!

Seriously, I do not much care who says they "trust Jesus for salvation"- if they refuse His bride, how are they not also refusing Him also?

You have to explain this me...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think we should care very much about the truth. God is the author of truth, the devil is the author of lies.

CS Lewis said, "If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking, and in the end, despair"

there is no use saying "it does not matter if my beliefs are true or not, Jesus loves me anyway and knows I love Him too"! Cause if we love Jesus we should love truth too cause He said, He is the way the truth and the life. If we love Jesus we should go the whole way... not just stop at the "minimum".

my opinion.

I hope I'll follow it.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Seriously, I do not much care who says they "trust Jesus for salvation"- if they refuse His bride, how are they not also refusing Him also?

You have to explain this me...

Jesus will tell some people, 'why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, yet not follow My commands..' if we love Him we will follow His will, even if we don't like what it is. Yup it's hard. I struggle lots myself. But it's the only way. What's the use of "trusting Jesus" if that trust doesn't lead to obedience? God REALLY wants us to trust Him but without faithful service that's just a feeling or empty words... faith without works is dead..

if we want to do God's will, we can't just leave Church out of it and say it doesn't matter.. because we can see that God cares about the Church.. He cares about truth..

I'm puzzled when people say that some things in the faith are "non essentials". That's fine to apply to others, to say - maybe that person got some things wrong by they sincerely love God and that's good and they can be saved... but we shouldn't apply it to ourselves, cause that's just taking the easy road and seeking comfort over truth...
Jesus gives us His very own Body and Blood in the Eucharist. Is that a non essential?
He shows us the richness of His Mercy in Confession. Is that a non essential?
He made Peter the rock on which the Church is built and leads it through Peter's successors so that the devil can't infiltrate Church teaching with lies.. is that a non essential?
no... everything is important... sure Protestants can be saved too.. but is that an excuse for us to be Protestant? no, because now that we know the truth we are responsible for following it..
everything God gives us in the Church is precious and is important and helpful for salvation. We can't call it "non essential"; it's an insult to say to God that His gifts are unimportant to us, and just follow our own way cause it's easier.

 

[kisstheson]

Jesus will tell some people, 'why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, yet not follow My commands..' if we love Him we will follow His will, even if we don't like what it is. Yup it's hard. I struggle lots myself. But it's the only way. What's the use of "trusting Jesus" if that trust doesn't lead to obedience? God REALLY wants us to trust Him but without faithful service that's just a feeling or empty words... faith without works is dead..

if we want to do God's will, we can't just leave Church out of it and say it doesn't matter.. because we can see that God cares about the Church.. He cares about truth..

I'm puzzled when people say that some things in the faith are "non essentials". That's fine to apply to others, to say - maybe that person got some things wrong by they sincerely love God and that's good and they can be saved... but we shouldn't apply it to ourselves, cause that's just taking the easy road and seeking comfort over truth...
Jesus gives us His very own Body and Blood in the Eucharist. Is that a non essential?
He shows us the richness of His Mercy in Confession. Is that a non essential?
He made Peter the rock on which the Church is built and leads it through Peter's successors so that the devil can't infiltrate Church teaching with lies.. is that a non essential?
no... everything is important... sure Protestants can be saved too.. but is that an excuse for us to be Protestant? no, because now that we know the truth we are responsible for following it..
everything God gives us in the Church is precious and is important and helpful for salvation. We can't call it "non essential"; it's an insult to say to God that His gifts are unimportant to us, and just follow our own way cause it's easier.

with all due respect Monica this sound like a judgement to me. Are you implying that those who are not a part of the RCC have taken the easy way out and are seeking comfort over the truth? Really? Do you know there are protestant Christians who are tortured and killed for their belief in Christ in places like Iran and certain Muslim countries? protestant christians in china have to practice their faith under ground.

Some people are not RC because they sincerely find things within that contradict what they see is "the TRUTH." For example. EO don't accept the current Pope, correct? And then you have traditional catholics who believe anything after Vatican 2 was influenced by demons. Do your EO brothers and sisters choose to do so because they want a more comfortable life? Would you say the same about tradition catholics who believe too much liberalism has come into the Church and will not accept pope benedict as a true pope?

 

[Rhamiel]

We do not live by bread alone, but by every word from the Mouth of God.
not just what we think is important, we view everything as important, the Church is Gods gift to us, He gave it to us so we can have assurance of doctrines and the Sacrements
I can not judge the state of others souls

 

[benedictaoo]

with all due respect Monica this sound like a judgement to me. Are you implying that those who are not a part of the RCC have taken the easy way out and are seeking comfort over the truth? Really? Do you know there are protestant Christians who are tortured and killed for their belief in Christ in places like Iran and certain Muslim countries? protestant christians in china have to practice their faith under ground.

Some people are not RC because they sincerely find things within that contradict what they see is "the TRUTH." For example. EO don't accept the current Pope, correct? And then you have traditional catholics who believe anything after Vatican 2 was influenced by demons. Do your EO brothers and sisters choose to do so because they want a more comfortable life? Would you say the same about tradition catholics who believe too much liberalism has come into the Church and will not accept pope benedict as a true pope?

There is no one size fits all when it comes to why folks reject Catholicism. Ppl do it for different reasons.

The Catholic Church does not condemn ppl for not being Catholic. You condemn yourself if and only if you KNOW the truth and willfully deny it. That is what the sin of apostasy is.

But here is what i think you are missing, there is only one Church, not bunches of churches and not every church who bares them name Christian teaches truth with no error. There is only one Church that teaches the truth 100% with no error.

We are not judging ppl in other faiths. We are just saying that Catholicism is the fullness of Divine Revelation.

You seem to be arguing, so what? Just becuase Catholicism is the fullness, it does not matter. "all" that matters is Christ Himself.

But why would God bother to reveal His truth to us if it did not matter if we accepted it or not? Jesus is the way the truth and the life... and that truth is not "just" Jesus but the whole of what God revealed to us on earth. All the Church teaches us makes up one revealed truth, so you can't cherry pick what you are willing to believe and reject the rest.

That is what Monica is saying to you, ppl want to cherry pick, even the EO has caved in to the worldly pressures and allows some sort of ABC and divorce.

And Muslims die and kill for their faith, so you make a moot point about folks willing to die, as if that validates that God accepts all these conflicting beliefs as all part of His one Church.

if a person dies for Christ, then they are made a saint, on the spot and it does not matter if they are Catholic but that in of itself does not validate truth as not mattering.

The truth is what sets us free from sin and having a sucky life, it does not just save us from hell.

the more of the truth we know, the more clearly we can see and be set free from sin on our daily life becuase sin in our daily life is what makes us have a sucky life.

So to know the truth, really sets you free. God would never lead a person away from this.

 

[kisstheson]

"The Catholic Church does not condemn ppl for not being Catholic. You condemn yourself if and only if you KNOW the truth and willfully deny it. That is what the sin of apostasy is.'

That's the crux of the matter...knowing it's the truth.

Not everyone believes everything in the RC is the truth as I pointed out in my previous post.

There's plenty that I agree with in the Church. Certain things I struggle with. No cafeteria catholic here.

 

[benedictaoo]

"The Catholic Church does not condemn ppl for not being Catholic. You condemn yourself if and only if you KNOW the truth and willfully deny it. That is what the sin of apostasy is.'

That's the crux of the matter...knowing it's the truth.

Not everyone believes everything in the RC is the truth as I pointed out in my previous post.

There's plenty that I agree with in the Church. Certain things I struggle with. No cafeteria catholic here.

But it's not about what we agree with.. it is about just what is.

Since every thread usually turns into something you take personally, I'll address this straightforwardly.

No offense to you, but there isn't much Catholicism as far as your theology is concerned, it's very Protestant. What does that make you? I have no idea.

But this thread is whether or not God leads a person away from His Church and the answer is, No, he does not.

and not only does He not lead us away, he always leads us to.

Now you will have to get together with yourself and decided that God is leading you the fullness of truth. When you will realize this? i do not know.

But what i do know is this; god is not telling you or anyone, it doesn't matter, be Catholic, be Protestant, it's all good.

 

[Rhamiel]

"The Catholic Church does not condemn ppl for not being Catholic. You condemn yourself if and only if you KNOW the truth and willfully deny it. That is what the sin of apostasy is.'

That's the crux of the matter...knowing it's the truth.

Not everyone believes everything in the RC is the truth as I pointed out in my previous post.

There's plenty that I agree with in the Church. Certain things I struggle with. No cafeteria catholic here.

well if the person is working from a true belief, then we can hope that God will show mercy to that person, the only reason I am not using stronger words to show that the person who leaves the Church out of true belief that a differant denomination is correct, is that it is not my place to judge, if you have full understanding that the Church is what it says it is, and leave anyway, then you are guilty
I can notknow the hearts of others, so I can not judge those who leave the Church,
I hope my Bible analogy made it more clear

 

[kisstheson]

I agree. If you absolutely know something is the truth and walk away that would be wrong.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

with all due respect Monica this sound like a judgement to me. Are you implying that those who are not a part of the RCC have taken the easy way out and are seeking comfort over the truth? Really? Do you know there are protestant Christians who are tortured and killed for their belief in Christ in places like Iran and certain Muslim countries? protestant christians in china have to practice their faith under ground.

Some people are not RC because they sincerely find things within that contradict what they see is "the TRUTH." For example. EO don't accept the current Pope, correct? And then you have traditional catholics who believe anything after Vatican 2 was influenced by demons. Do your EO brothers and sisters choose to do so because they want a more comfortable life? Would you say the same about tradition catholics who believe too much liberalism has come into the Church and will not accept pope benedict as a true pope?

I was talking about people who say "it really doesn't matter what church you go to!! just make sure you love Jesus nothing else is important!" my point was that if someone loves the Lord yet considers His gifts to us non essentials, that is very strange and I don't really get that, because everything He gives us is to help us in our salvation.