would God ever lead someone away from the Church?

[JoabAnias]

I have felt vomited out of the Church twice. Both times were of my own doing and sinful. There is never a good reason to leave.

Think of the parable of the prodigal son and those who walked away from Jesus when He told them the bread He gave them was actually His flesh.

Both are examples of a free will choice. Neither are examples of God kicking anyone out. There are none.

God is always the center and waiting for us to return to Him. He does understand us though, better than we do ourselves.

 

[kisstheson]

why are you making this personal sis

if you must know, I distrust my own feelings, so what I said wasn't hypocrisy. That's actually why I doubt so much, because I don't know if what I feel is what God's will is.

can you please not make it personal. I'm really struggling and have been for months now.

because in the end all of this is all in Jesus' hands. So why get caught up in what everyone else is doing? This one says they are right and this one says they are wrong. Be at peace in His love. He will lead you in the right way. *Many hugs*

 

[benedictaoo]

It looks like I'm in the minority here, but I do think it's possible God could lead a nominal Catholic away, especially in their youth.

I guess because I know someone who grew up Catholic, but it was in a family who didn't "live the faith". They went to church, but in their personal and home life they did not practice the faith, and lived a pretty Godless lifestyle.

It is hard for someone like that to really experience the faith when their most primary experience of faith within their family life isn't genuine.

He had a conversion experience in an evangelical church as a teenager and really fell in love with Christ there.

Now a dozen years later his hunger for truth got him to studying the early church fathers, and has led him to the truth of the Church. He is ready to come home, and live the Catholic faith to its fullest.

It can be very difficult for someone who happens to land in a patch of weeds to recognize that a few pews over there are rows and rows of beautiful wheat.

So I think it is quite possible that Christ called him unto Himself in this way. As Pope Benedict has said "It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them." If we believe that the Church of Christ is operative there, why would we not believe it could be used by God in this way?

So, while I do not think God would lead someone who has a full understanding and a full participation in the life of the Catholic church away, I can see instances where He may use other churches to call someone to himself, even someone who is technically Catholic. I think someone mentioned abuse earlier as well. For many who were abused by Catholic clergy, it can take a great deal of healing before they can see the church without looking through those glasses, so I think it's possible He could minister to them in this way as well.

Yeah I agree he can lead us out if it's in order to lead us back.

 

[benedictaoo]

"So I think it is quite possible that Christ called him unto Himself in this way. As Pope Benedict has said "It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them." If we believe that the Church of Christ is operative there, why would we not believe it could be used by God in this way?"

I don't know.

There are some Protestants who left the catholic church because they feel that Christ led them that way. perhaps some will never return. I guess they will be damned forever.

They feel-- that is their problem right there.

are they damned? that is not up to us to discern.

But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.

then what happens?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I'm just interested in what you all think.

I think that God wants everyone to be in the Church.. sometimes He might lead people away from it to Protestantism, for example, but always with the intention of leading them back when they're ready. For example, I believe that I needed to be non denom Protestant at one time in my life because that is how I discovered God, I wasn't ready for anything liturgical and if it wasn't for my old church I might have still been an agnostic right now. But clearly God brought me back to the Sacraments!

Do you think that He would want someone to be Protestant though, and never lead them to the Catholic Church? I just had a conversation with someone about that on another thread and it got me to think deeper into the topic.

Can we even know the answer? If we say that God wouldn't lead anyone away from the Church, does that mean we're speaking for Him? is it arrogant/presumptious?

I'm curious in what you'd say..

I have met people who left the Church but now love God and He's clearly present in their lives... but I'd say that's not because they left, but rather in spite of it, simply because of His mercy; and also because He knows people's hearts and sees their sincere desire to know Him. definitely there are Protestants who love God a lot. btw, I also know people who have left the Church and became Protestants but then lost faith in God altogether

No; If folks wish forsake the One True Holy Catholic Church of Jesus Christ for a Heretical sect, it is not the will of God; it is the deceit and veil of deception by the Devil, to drag them away from Christ and the fullness of the truth that the Holy Ghost has impart unto us, the Holy Sacraments of Jesus', he [Christ] so lovingly offers us in his Holy Church. God nudges and by his grace seeks to impel and help guide us back to his Holy Catholic Church, however, the devil veils this and confuses some folks into misinterpreting this [because of the deception of Satan they are lead to misinterpret this] and thinking that God is calling them to a non-Catholic sect, when in reality he is not, he is merely trying lead his wayward sheep back into the sheepfold. God is not the author of error; he most certainly wouldn't direct any of the faithful to erroroneous sect; he may by his permissive will, permit a member of his flock to leave the Church, for God is charity and charity does not force itself upon anyone; nevertheless, he will always true to guide and nudge his wayward sheep back into his one sheepfold (the Holy Catholic Church).

(I say this, with a brother, who for all intents and purposes became an Evangelical Protestant and has abandoned/fell away from the Holy Catholic Church; and having been lured away by the Protestant sects myself before.)

Lord have mercy.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

because in the end all of this is all in Jesus' hands. So why get caught up in what everyone else is doing? This one says they are right and this one says they are wrong. Be at peace in His love. He will lead you in the right way. *Many hugs*

I'm sorry I got upset. I'm just going through some things right now. I hope and pray He will lead me the right way.

They feel-- that is their problem right there.

are they damned? that is not up to us to discern.

But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.

then what happens?

that is a good (and scary..) question. That is why we should always be open to God's will whatever it is and put His will above our own. Because in this case...these people might go to hell just because of their pride and reliance on self... this always keeps people away from the truth and from the Church

 

[MoNiCa4316]

No; If folks wish forsake the One True Holy Catholic Church of Jesus Christ for a Heretical sect, it is not the will of God; it is the deceit and veil of deception by the Devil, to drag them away from Christ and the fullness of the truth that the Holy Ghost has impart unto us, the Holy Sacraments of Jesus', he [Christ] so lovingly offers us in his Holy Church. God nudges and by his grace seeks to impel and help guide us back to his Holy Catholic Church, however, the devil veils this and confuses some folks into misinterpreting this [because of the deception of Satan they are lead to misinterpret this] and thinking that God is calling them to a non-Catholic sect, when in reality he is not, he is merely trying lead his wayward sheep back into the sheepfold. God is not the author of error; he most certainly wouldn't direct any of the faithful to erroroneous sect; he may by his permissive will, permit a member of his flock to leave the Church, for God is charity and charity does not force itself upon anyone; nevertheless, he will always true to guide and nudge his wayward sheep back into his one sheepfold (the Holy Catholic Church).

(I say this, with a brother, who for all intents and purposes became an Evangelical Protestant and has abandoned/fell away from the Holy Catholic Church; and having been lured away by the Protestant sectaries myself before.)

Lord have mercy.

I think it is so sad when people leave the Sacraments I'd never leave the Eucharist, no way.. even if I thought Catholics worship the Pope or whatever, I'd want to stay just for the Eucharist. Protestantism feels so empty to me now. I know many Protestants genuinely love God and that's what makes it almost tragic, that they love God and are seeking Him but are missing out on receiving this gift of Himself in Communion. But it is good that they love Him, because that shows that God is merciful to all His children and never gives up on us... but I pray that they would all find the Church

 

[kisstheson]

"But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.'

Because the EO can present the same argument.

 

[benedictaoo]

"But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.'

Because the EO can present the same argument.

So what? What in your mind does that prove? Anybody can make the argument but guess what? one one is right, not all faiths are all right.

Catholicism is the truth. The whole truth. EO is closet to that and the rest vary from there.

So if a EO meets God and says, sorry i refuse to believe you gave pope teaching authority over the rest of us... what do you think happens?

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm sorry I got upset. I'm just going through some things right now. I hope and pray He will lead me the right way.



that is a good (and scary..) question. That is why we should always be open to God's will whatever it is and put His will above our own. Because in this case...these people might go to hell just because of their pride and reliance on self... this always keeps people away from the truth and from the Church

exactly. It's all about our will and His. Ppl think the act of death will change them somehow but we die as we are and our wills will be fixed and if we are absolutely willfully against the Church, knowing what we reject, not just ignorant but truly against the Church, that's apostasy and it does not matter how much of Jesus you are willing to accept-- if you reject His bride, what do yo think happens?

 

[Rhamiel]

"But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.'

Because the EO can present the same argument.

The EO does claim to be the One True Church, but we believe they are mistaken, as pointed out the EO is very close to the Catholic Church, so it makes sense that they would have the proper idea about the role and unity of the Church

 

[Rhamiel]

this question is like "would God ever lead people to reject the Bible?"
why would He lead people agianst the truth? there might be people who do not believe the Bible is the word of God but still love Him
but He never put that idea in their minds

 

[narnia59]

They feel-- that is their problem right there.

are they damned? that is not up to us to discern.

But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.

then what happens?

In the last book of the Chronicles of Narnia (The Last Battle) there is a chapter called "How the Dwarfs Refused to be Taken In". No matter how much anyone (including Aslan) tried to persuade them of the truth of heaven all around them, they could not see it because they weren't going to be 'fooled' by anyone.

"You see", said Aslan. "They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out."

I would think that's probably a pretty accurate description of 'then what happens'.

 

[kisstheson]

wasn't C.S. Lewis a protestant?

 

[WarriorAngel]

"So I think it is quite possible that Christ called him unto Himself in this way. As Pope Benedict has said "It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them." If we believe that the Church of Christ is operative there, why would we not believe it could be used by God in this way?"

I don't know.

There are some Protestants who left the catholic church because they feel that Christ led them that way. perhaps some will never return. I guess they will be damned forever.

Give it time...
I know of so very few who do not return.

The Eucharist is so powerful - it led my brother back because he craved Jesus in the Eucharist.

And i have seen reverting stories in OBOB and i have seen it happen to others in life.

So - give it time. They will return eventually.
Which reminds me - have to pray for my cousins - they all left to become what they say is born again.

HUGS

 

[Rhamiel]

wasn't C.S. Lewis a protestant?

yes, but he was also a mature Christian and a genius writter
but his choice to not be Catholic was not inspired by God,
I can not accept that God would want people to be part of the Catholic Church, anymore then I can accept that God would want people to not believe in the Bible

 

[WarriorAngel]

"But I can't see it ending good if they are so head strong and so determined that Catholicism is not true, and they meet the Lord and say to Him, i can't accept that this was true all this time. i will never accept it.'

Because the EO can present the same argument.

Partly true because they are schismed and stemmed from the one Church.
Partly not true - since they excommunicated themselves because they renounced the Pope AND then cut themselves from the Pope and 'excommunicated' the entire West.

NOW - to truly remove a Bishop - there has to be either
A) A judgement soley by the Pope.
B) A council and then the Pope agreeing to the heresy or so forth.

OR
C) If the Pope is in question - they would have to remove said Pope.

Problem was - nothing the Pope did actually inflamed Michael [Bishop] to go and scratch his name off the list and close the RCChurches..

His cry for heresy was not directed at the then current Pope and so he had to remove the entire branch of the Roman Church....from their communion.

Which technically - cannot be done.

God Bless.

 

[kisstheson]

Give it time...
I know of so very few who do not return.

The Eucharist is so powerful - it led my brother back because he craved Jesus in the Eucharist.

And i have seen reverting stories in OBOB and i have seen it happen to others in life.

So - give it time. They will return eventually.
Which reminds me - have to pray for my cousins - they all left to become what they say is born again.

HUGS

I love you. You have a good heart. I do believe in the real presence btw. I struggle with some other stuff.

 

[kisstheson]

yes, but he was also a mature Christian and a genius writter
but his choice to not be Catholic was not inspired by God,
I can not accept that God would want people to be part of the Catholic Church, anymore then I can accept that God would want people to not believe in the Bible

It's all good.

 

[kisstheson]

So what? What in your mind does that prove? Anybody can make the argument but guess what? one one is right, not all faiths are all right.

Catholicism is the truth. The whole truth. EO is closet to that and the rest vary from there.

So if a EO meets God and says, sorry i refuse to believe you gave pope teaching authority over the rest of us... what do you think happens?

Nothing...because they in good conscience trusted in Jesus as their savior. not every Christian in heaven is RC. will you be glad to see me there? Of course!!!