worship Jesus?

2ducklow

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Romans via Rotherham

1:26 For this cause, God gave them up unto dishonourable passions; for, even their females, exchanged away the natural use into that which is against nature,—

1:27 In like manner also, even the males, leaving the natural use of the female, flamed out in their eager desire one for another, males with males, the indecency, effecting,—and, the necessary recompence of their error, within themselves, duly receiving;— 1:28 And, even as they did not approve to be holding, God, in acknowledgment, God gave them up unto a disapproved mind to be doing the things that are not becoming,

1:29 Filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, baseness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil disposition,

1:30 Whisperers, detractors, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, vain boasters, inventors of vices, unto parents unyielding,

1:31 Without discernment, regardless of covenants, without natural affection, unmerciful:—
1:32 Who, indeed, having acknowledged the righteous sentence of God,—that, they who such things as these do practise, are worthy of death, not only, the same things, are doing, but are even delighting together with them who are practising [them].

Even the KJV says pretty much the same thing. Just thought I 'd say before I get the usual ,Rotherham is bad bad bad.

I left romans 1.25 out because I felt Rotherham didn't quite get that verse correct, and he didn't.

1:25 3748οίτινες the ones who 3337μετήλλαξαν changed over 3588την the 225αλήθειαν truth 3588 του 2316 θεού of God 1722 ενin 3588τω the 5579ψεύδει lie, 2532και and 4573εσεβάσθησαν worshiped 2532και and 3000ελάτρευσαν served 3588τη to the 2937κτίσει created thing 3844παρά over 3588τον the one 2936κτίσαντα having created it, 3739ος who 1510.2.3εστινis 2128ευλογητός blessed 1519εις into 3588τους the 165αιώνας eons. 281αμήν Amen.

Romans 1:25 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear




let me draw it out word for word

'The ones who changed over the truth of God the lie and worshiped and served to the created over the one having created who blessed into the eons amen.' ( note that 'thing' is in italics, it isn't in the word of god just added by the translator to conform to his understanding.)

obviously the sense of worship is devine worship because it says changed worship of god to worship of the created. Jesus was the first born of all new creation, the first born of many brethren who are all new creations, Jesus is the result of Mary's seed and egg, Jesus is the result of the new thing God created that enabled Mary a woman to compass or go around a man to conceive.

So it's saying the following verses are a result of worshiping the created (Jesus) as God, instead of worshiping God as God. See it says ' worshiped created over the one having created it." then it says "who blessed into the eons. " 'who blessed" has to refer to the created thing. Because God is the one doing the blessing. God blessed Jesus into the eons. God blessed the created (Jesus) who most Christians falsely worship as the one who created the created Jesus. It's actually pretty shocking condemnation of the Jesus is God doctrines.

Rotherham translates what really means created as creature. this gives a false impression, plus his word order isn't word for word, and he changes the meaning there with.
 
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2ducklow

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ah ok

Blessed (2128) (eulogetos from eulogeo = to bless <> eú = good, well + logos = word. English = eulogize, eulogy = commendatory formal statement or set oration; high praise; to extol) means to be well spoken of or inherently worthy of praise

All the uses of eulogetos refer to God as the One "well spoken of". Eulogetos, used of God indicates praise and adoration on the part of the creature, in recognition of the power and prerogatives of the Creator, and the privileges enjoyed at His hands. In Psalm 103:1, 2 when David says &#8220;Bless (LXX = the related verb form eulogeo) the Lord O my soul&#8221; he is praising God, speaking well of God.

There are 8 uses of eulogetos in the NT - Mark 14:61 (here it used as a title - "the blessed One"); Lk 1:68; Ro 1:25-note; Ro 9:5-note; 2Co 1:3; 11:31; Eph 1:3-note; 1Pe 1:3-note.

There are 46 uses of eulogetos in the Lxx - Ge 9:26; 12:2; 14:20; 24:27, 31; 26:29; 43:28; Ex 18:10; Deut. 7:14; 33:24; Jdg. 17:2; Ru 2:20; 4:14; 1Sa 15:13; 25:32, 33, 39; 2Sa 6:21; 18:28; 22:47; 1Ki 1:48; 5:7; 8:15, 56; 1Chr 29:10; 2Chr 2:12; 6:4; Ezra 7:27; Ps 18:46; 28:6; 31:21; 41:13; Ps 66:20; 68:18, 19, 35; Ps 72:18, 19; Ps 89:52; 106:48; 119:12; 124:6; Ps 135:21; 144:1; Da 3:28; Zech 11:5. Eulogetos in the Septuagint always translates some form of Barak (&#8220;blessed&#8221;). The term is almost invariably applied to God (e.g., Genesis 9:26; 14:20; Exodus 18:10; Ruth 2:20; 4:14; 2Samuel 18:28 [LXX 2 Kings 18:28]; Tobit 3:11; Psalms throughout.

As Godet says Who is blessed means that He is blessed "because He ought to be so. He is and will be so, whatever the heathen may do in the matter."
Romans 1:24-25 Commentary

Romans 1.25'The ones who changed over the truth of God the lie and worshiped and served to the created over the one having created who blessed into the eons amen.'

Ok so, the greek word is eulogetos that is translated as blessed in romans 1.25 and it is used in reference to god. So romans eulogetos doesn't modify the created, but rather the creator. Still Jesus is created, and its wrong to worship the created, or in the case of this word it means reverential awe.

Worshipped (4573) (sebazomai from sébas = reverential awe <> sébomai (4576), to shrink from, to worship religiously. ) expresses in attitude and ritual one&#8217;s allegiance to and regard for deity. Reverential awe. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship. To give honor to. Sebázomai denotes religious expressions of veneration in particular as well as reverential behavior in general.
Romans 1:24-25 Commentary

this is a good source , I saved it. I just found it.

In the present context sebazomai means that they stood in awe of their idols, showed reverence to them (means to respect and esteem but also implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe), venerated them and worshipped them. In short they gave honor to their idols instead of to God.
 
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Ripheus27

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If we were worshiping the flesh of Jesus, I suppose I'd have to agree. But I'm not just my flesh, and I could lose all my flesh and still be me, so I suppose I have *something* to me that the words "soul" or "person" are used for often. The soul of Jesus' body is the same as the soul of God, then, or that's what we'd say in these words, and since God is not divisible into pieces, it's not like His soul is something other than God Himself. So Who Jesus is, is God, even if God is not *what* He is, you might say.
 
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2ducklow

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If we were worshiping the flesh of Jesus, I suppose I'd have to agree. But I'm not just my flesh, and I could lose all my flesh and still be me, so I suppose I have *something* to me that the words "soul" or "person" are used for often. The soul of Jesus' body is the same as the soul of God, then, or that's what we'd say in these words, and since God is not divisible into pieces, it's not like His soul is something other than God Himself. So Who Jesus is, is God, even if God is not *what* He is, you might say.
humans are created. their body soul's and human spirits are created by the creator. Jesus is human so he has a human body, human soul and human spirit. those are all created. And romans 1.25 says not to worship the created as a god. So worshiping JEsus as God results in the aweful things listed that result in worshiping the created above the creator.

since everyone has to admit that the flesh of Jesus was created, then it follows that his soul and human spirit were created as well. Otherwise Jesus is just a bag of flesh that God is in. and if you worship his flesh, then you worship his human spirit and you worship his human soul as being God.
 
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Ripheus27

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"Otherwise Jesus is just a bag of flesh that God is in." I'm glad you think it's fine to mock other people's beliefs by portraying them in disagreeable ways that poorly reflect what is actually being said. I really wish you'd show the spirit of Christ when you argue, as any hope you have of inspiring people to think better is just ruined by your arrogant presentation.
 
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BelieveTheWord

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Worship just means bowing your face to the ground. Bowing before (worshiping) Godly kings or angels (Elohim) is never indicated to be a negative thing. The 2nd commandment is against worshiping idols. Of course worshiping ungodly kings/leaders, fallen angels, or demons should be seen as problematic.
 
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2ducklow

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Worship just means bowing your face to the ground. Bowing before (worshiping) Godly kings or angels (Elohim) is never indicated to be a negative thing. The 2nd commandment is against worshiping idols. Of course worshiping ungodly kings/leaders, fallen angels, or demons should be seen as problematic.

The word translated worship in romans 1.25 doesn'tmean bow down, it means reverential awe. There's anothergreek word that's also translated worship that means bow down, proskuenos.

this is the word translated worship in Romans 1.25

Worshipped (4573) (sebazomai from sébas = reverential awe <> sébomai (4576), to shrink from, to worship religiously. ) expresses in attitude and ritual one&#8217;s allegiance to and regard for deity. Reverential awe. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship. To give honor to. Sebázomai denotes religious expressions of veneration in particular as well as reverential behavior in general.
http://preceptaustin.org/romans_124-32.htm

Ifyou go to the site above you have to scroll way down to find the above definition. the word is highlighted in yellow though.
 
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2ducklow

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So what is the noncircular definition of "reverential"?
I don't know. reverential sounds like one of those multi definition words like worship. I haven't researched the definition of reverential. my idea of reverential is something like thinking submissive thoughts about oneself towards God. IT's not a word I have a firm grasp on. But at least the definition I quoted shows a different definition for that word than is given for the other word proskuenos that is also translated worship.
so one word means reverential awe
the other word means bow down.
so just translate them both as worship, nobody cares jiust so long as they aren't translated correctly.

oh guess that came across a bit cynical. well it seeps out sometimes.
 
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2ducklow

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The first commandment is to put no other Elohim in front of Yahweh. So I would agree this shouldn't be done in the case of Jesus. Just from real life experience I don't think unity or trinity doctrines inherently lead to complete depravity.
I don't either. For several reasons. I. Trinitarians also believe there is only one God. 2. Trinitarians worship Jesus and the Father , not just Jesus. 3. Trinitarians don't place Jesus above God, they place Jesus = to God. 4. and other stuff.

But Jesus is a created. and they worship (whatever it means or doesn't mean to them) a created being Jesus. So as a result of worshiping a created they suffer in some measure the recompense for worshiping a created. Which explains to some extent the inquisition, and similar stuff.

Romans 1.25 says ' worship created OVER the creator. Trinitarians worship created = to the creator. That's the difference in a nutshell.
 
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BelieveTheWord

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I don't either. For several reasons. I. Trinitarians also believe there is only one God. 2. Trinitarians worship Jesus and the Father , not just Jesus. 3. Trinitarians don't place Jesus above God, they place Jesus = to God. 4. and other stuff.

But Jesus is a created. and they worship (whatever it means or doesn't mean to them) a created being Jesus. So as a result of worshiping a created they suffer in some measure the recompense for worshiping a created. Which explains to some extent the inquisition, and similar stuff.

Romans 1.25 says ' worship created OVER the creator. Trinitarians worship created = to the creator. That's the difference in a nutshell.

The Catholic "church" has also had flat-out idolatry as a core feature, so it's depravity certainly fits the Romans narrative for many reasons. Giving humans equal or greater authority than the Father and Son (which is directly contrary to Scripture) is as much a contributor. :liturgy:

The breaking of any commandment has it's consequences. Is it any surprise that abandoning a Sabbath of any sort has caused a nation of stressed-out people?
 
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