Women ordained in the Baptist Church

[mlqurgw]

It is most curious that among an entire chapter on spiritual gifts there is near the end only two verses that would appear totally unrelated to the subject matter. Why is this? What is the relative significance of women's silence to spiritual gifts?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Actually, there would appear to be five verses in I Timothy 2 that cover perhaps six issues regarding women in church; how they should look and how they should act; how should learn; the not teach issue and the 'not usurp authority' issue; and, finally, reasoning as to why for each grouped collectively.

As to the first two, looks and actions, we have:

1 Timothy 2:9-12, "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Despite the technological advancements that today allow for sexual and sensual enhancements regarding patterns and styles of clothing, nylons, high heels, makeup and perfume it would be easy to understand, by today's appearances, how such could be a distraction at a time when the purpose and object should be worship; indeed, women's inherent beauty in the pre-Flood era was such that even the angels themselves were led astray:

Genesis 6:1-2, "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

Then we have the issue of how they should learn, i.e. be taught:

1 Timothy 2:11, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."

At the time this was written the churches were essentially being run much in the same fashion as the Jewish synagogues where the men and women were separated. It would be nice if we could believe the women were not so disrespectful of the service or so unruly as to call out to their husbands for explanations of what was being taught or preached although it might not be too far distant to assume that in addition to attempting to explain to their nearby children the delivered message or even for the women, themselves, to discuss the message amongst themselves. Indeed, such background chatter could be most disruptive if such were the case and would, doubtless, necessitate the 'learn in silence' or, for clarification sake, ask their husbands afterwards back at home.

With respect to the teaching and usurping issues:

1 Timothy 2:12, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

The first thing to be noticed is the interjectory connecting the previous verse containing the 'silence with all subjection' with a woman not to teach but here we have "a" woman and "the" man which would seem to infer the meaning is not 'women' and 'men' but, rather, speaks to the marital state itself. This would quite possibly be in line with the women not continually hollering out to their men for the message's clarification.

As to the "usurp authority" this, again, seems to speak to the marital state and not a single woman 'versus' all men as in one woman teaching or usurping authority over all men.

It must also be pointed out that Paul is being explicit here in that he is making it a point that it is his personal opinion ("I" suffer not) and not some sort of all encompassing Godly edict and that, grammatically, teaching and usurping are not the true subject matter, rather, silence is the real issue which falls back in accord with the previous verses that also reiterate silence.


As to the reasoning why we are given the following explanation:

I Timothy 2:12, 14: "For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

In the first part, Adam being first formed, again, speaks to the marital state and not of necessity men and women in general. Even though there is the order of headship issue that can be brought into play, again, this speaks, too, of the marital state and not men and women collectively.

Finally, we come to the crux of the reasoning, for it was Adam's wife, Eve, that Satan did an end run around to deceive avoiding the husband. It has been postulated for millennia the reason for this is that the term, 'weaker vessel', refers not just to physical limitations but also because she is the more nurturing of the two and is more emotionally ruled (emotions being regarded as baser and more subject to error compared to reason and logic) and, thus, the woman is more easily swayed and deceived than the man and that this (in addition to the fact that it was Adam that God original gave the 'do not eat' command to and Eve then received it from Adam) is the reason why Satan approached Eve.

In any event, the entire issue appears to speak to the marital state and not to women teaching or holding positions of authority over men in general.

I honestly believe this is an example of the point I sought to make earlier, that either we seek a way around the clear statement, such as we have above, or ignore it.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I honestly believe this is an example of the point I sought to make earlier, that either we seek a way around the clear statement, such as we have above, or ignore it.

I did try to base my reasoning on an understanding of scripture.

byeee

 

[mlqurgw]

I did try to base my reasoning on an understanding of scripture.

byeee

Sorry if I hit a little too close to home. My point was made nonetheless. Rebuttal doesn't always require a lengthy response.

 

[Flynmonkie]

It might be a good idea to bring fact into play here,

How many know men, that have no idea about biblical things, pair that now with a woman whom does, is she then to refer that man to another man or is she to do Gods work set in front of her at the time? Why would God gift her that ability if it were sinful or wrong?

Are they wrong for being strong or weak in this area not reflecting the stereotype mandate that is imposed on them? Or is the fact of the matter God makes each one of us different? Or should we just deny they exist and go on about our business?

It is a fact that you cannot stereotype women as emotional, I know some pretty cold blooded ones. It is another fact that I know men that are much more emotional than I. In fact, yesterday evening we were speaking of advertising. Most times when you see an ad for a vehicle targeting women it is white or silver, men; red or black. Well, lets see.. I drive a black Avalanche now, my best friend, a Black Cadillac Escalade, my other girlfriend a shiny new red mustang. I guess we are just anomalies? I think it is yet just another stereotype.(BTW Silver is the worst color to have in the midwest climate FYI)

I know many a single father that sometimes run circles around me in the nurture department because of those expectations that he would not have that capability. Short of breastfeeding, he is a heck of a daddy and mommy. Is he wrong for excelling in this gift? Then why did God give it to him? Additionally, my granddaddy was one of the most nurturing men I knew.

To me, trying to understand and discern the bible without including facts (what you see in front of you) is just the opposite, twisting the bible to ones own subjective understanding.

 

[holdon]

It is most curious that among an entire chapter on spiritual gifts there is near the end only two verses that would appear totally unrelated to the subject matter. Why is this? What is the relative significance of women's silence to spiritual gifts?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

"Only" two that settle the matter decisively: "let your women be silent in the churches". What more clarity do you need? And by the way it fits perfectly in the chapter about exercising the gifts with proper discernment.

In any event, the entire issue appears to speak to the marital state and not to women teaching or holding positions of authority over men in general.

I disagree. It is about the man - woman contrast, not merely the married state. There is no foundation for such a thought.

As to it being Paul's personal opinion and not God's, a couple of verse earlier he had claimed this:

"to which I have been appointed a herald and apostle, (I speak the truth, I do not lie,) a teacher of the nations in faith and truth."

So, Paul claimed he was a teacher in faith and truth.

And the passage in 1 Cor 14 is followed immediately by this:

"If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment."

So, there Paul says expressly that it was the Lord's commandment.....

 

[coveredwife]

I am sure that I am extremely old fashioned, but in my belief, a woman should not be ordained in any church as it specifically says a woman should not teach the men, but remain silent. It is okay though, for a woman to lead a women's Bible study. She does afterall have responsibility to lead and lift up the younger women around her(titus2)

 

[JacobHall86]

Flynmonkey, Your arguement doesnt prove that women should be ordained. It simply means that men and women dont always fit into society's design for them. Comparing a man who MUST fill the roll of both parents in the absence of a mother is not the same as a Woman Usurping the God-Ordained authority of Men in the Church. Apples and Oranges.

 

[Joykins]

Since usurp means to more or less steal, if authority is given, it is not an act of usurpation.

 

[JacobHall86]

Since usurp means to more or less steal, if authority is given, it is not an act of usurpation.

It is authority given only by God. No man can give that authority, and God has made it clear that Men are to lead the church.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

It is authority given only by God. No man can give that authority, and God has made it clear that Men are to lead the church.

Scenario 1: Since it is men that have the authority given by God that has ordained women then the authority is rightfully on and held by the woman leading the assembly.

Scenario 2: Since it is men that the authority given by God that has ordained pedophile perverts then the authority is rightfully on and held by the deviant man leading the assembly.

Scenario 3: Since it is men that the authority given by God that has ordained a man the men later deem does not run the assembly enough like a profit making business, despite the fact that he does adhere in all other ways approved unto God, then the discharged pastor never had God's blessing and was not rightfully ordained to lead the assembly.

Scenario 4: In each of the above cases none of the men that conferred God's authority never truly held God's Authority and had no right to ordain anyone and they are guilty of leading many astray more so than than the woman, the pervert or the righteous man of God whose only sin was in not making the elders look good by bringing in more money.

Scenario 5: fill in the blanks, add your own. Apparently, if his name was not changed from Saul to Paul no man is perfect enough for the responsibility that he might claim this authority.

 

[JPPT1974]

Don't know about the Baptist church
But the Methodist church I know has
Women that are pastors!

 

[JacobHall86]

HypTypoSis,
Its not mans authority to give. None of your scenerios are valid.

JPPT, THere are alot of things the Methodist Church does wrong. If Jonathon Wesley came back today he would tell them to get right.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Its not mans authority to give.

ALL authority extends downward from God. And it is within that authority structure for each to delegate that God granted authority and its respective responsibility be it the church board hiring or firing a pastor or a President appointing a Supreme Court judge or the voting population electing a senator or an employer hiring, disciplining, firing or ordering an employee what to do, or a parent instructing or ordering their children or a policeman arresting a lawbreaker. ALL authority everywhere, believers and nonbelievers, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, good, bad or indifferent they are all alike in that any and all authority they wield and delegate comes from God above.

 

[JacobHall86]

ALL authority extends downward from God. And it is within that authority structure for each to delegate that God granted authority and its respective responsibility be it the church board hiring or firing a pastor or a President appointing a Supreme Court judge or the voting population electing a senator or an employer hiring, disciplining, firing or ordering an employee what to do, or a parent instructing or ordering their children or a policeman arresting a lawbreaker. ALL authority everywhere, believers and nonbelievers, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, good, bad or indifferent they are all alike in that any and all authority they wield and delegate comes from God above.

Yes, but that doesnt prove as to why women should be pastors.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Yes, but that doesnt prove as to why women should be pastors.

It's in the delegation. Right or wrong the wielder of authority is in the right just as the law, good or bad, is right because justice is just that--just. Fairness and equality are not viable issues, the only issue is was the law, i.e. the authority, observed or was it violated.

Scripture has some very definite words to say in this respect:

1 Peter 2:18-24, "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

The courts and, specifically, its judges and, by extenstion, the jury are referred to as God's ministers, revengers; they are, indeed, God's ministers of wrath:

Romans 13:1-7, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

How and when God deals with sinners is His and His alone to determine, whether it be through the courts and legal action, illness, financial failures, family failures, the list is endless for what we sew we reap and what goes around comes around just like the ying yang:

Deuteronomy 32:35, "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste."

 

[HypoTypoSis]

So, IF, for example, your church board were to appoint a woman pastor and you were to bellyache and complain about it what would God have to say to you regarding His authority based upon the verses in my previous post?

 

[HypoTypoSis]

To paraphrase JFK, 'ask not what your church can do for you, rather, ask what you can do for your church'.

 

[edie19]

ALL authority extends downward from God. And it is within that authority structure for each to delegate that God granted authority and its respective responsibility be it the church board hiring or firing a pastor or a President appointing a Supreme Court judge or the voting population electing a senator or an employer hiring, disciplining, firing or ordering an employee what to do, or a parent instructing or ordering their children or a policeman arresting a lawbreaker. ALL authority everywhere, believers and nonbelievers, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, good, bad or indifferent they are all alike in that any and all authority they wield and delegate comes from God above.

Great point - and one I think we too often forget.

That's one of the reasons why my church regularly prays for our national and world leaders - they're there for a reason.

 

[53Isaiah]

How many know men, that have no idea about biblical things

Simply stated: new male believers.

pair that now with a woman whom does

She would be:
1) a woman that was taught by a man
3) a woman that was taught by a woman that was taught by a man.

is she then to refer that man to another man

Why would that man refer him to this women, he himself should teach the man.

Why would God gift her that ability if it were sinful or wrong?

We have great women teachers in our church, and the children and other women are greatly blessed by their gift of God.

Again I say, God is a God of order, a God who tells us those things that are Biblical and un-Biblical, and how to handle things that are non-Biblical. He does so by asking us to measure the pattern, his pattern, the one set out in his Word. Surely finding examples of women leading over men should not that be difficult if it were what he both indented and desired. Where are the examples?

 

[JacobHall86]

If my Church were to appoint a Woman pastor I would show them the scriptures I have shown you and tell them they are wrong. I would tell them that God has designed the church structure with a Male as the Leader. Regardless of the authority they feel they can delegate. If they delegate authority that is in conflict with Scripture I will make sure they know it.

Show me an instance in hte New Testament Church of a Woman as the leader.

Or Show me where it says Women can lead the church.