Women ordained in the Baptist Church

[Erinwilcox]

We're arguing semantics; splitting hairs. It's a red herring. Deacons are leaders of the church and that's that. No, they aren't ordained. But they are as much leaders as the pastor.
Ringo

Not in my church. The first deacons came to be when the issue of the Greek widows' food distribution came up--they were to organize/distribute the food and do other such duties so that the pastor could focus on preaching. That is what the deacons do in my church. Maybe we're talking about two different things with the same name. . .

And I'm telling you that you're wrong. Dead wrong. It's a narrow, dim little view of Scriptures that are to be interpreted - not simply taken for every black-and-white word.

That may be the way they did things in patriarchal Bible society, but they did a lot of things back in Bible society that we don't do today. We're a priesthood of believers, and that priesthood can include women just as it does men, blacks, Asians, Mexicans, or anyone else who feels led to preach.

I'm still not convinced not because I'm necessarily close-minded or "my mind is made up" (though it is prety much made up). It's because the only thing you've given me as "evidence" to your claims are absolute, literal interpretations of verses written by an imperfect man in a sexist society.

Women can be ordained to be pastors, and rightly so.
Ringo

Where is your scriptural evidence of this?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

God's Word IS law--when He has said that women are not to teach, can we then say that it's okay now because our culture is different? He never changes and neither does His law. Please, show me from the Bible where it says plainly that women can teach.

 

[mont974x4]

Well, that's your opinion. You're entitled to be wrong.
Ringo

You may deny God and the authority of His word, but you will be held to account one day.

BTW, insulting people is no way to win people over to your point of view.

 

[Ringo84]

Ringo, you have not given any evidence as to why women should be pastors. Thats the bottom line. That Imperfect Man was inspired by God to write what he did. I happen to think God is powerful enough to keep things he wants out of his Bible.

You have given zero reasons that the Scriptures referred to ar wrong, and even less evidence as to why Women should be ordained.

Jacob

What have you given? I know the verses you've given over and over very well. What I don't know is the context in which they're written.
Ringo

 

[mont974x4]

I learn from women all the time, in an unofficial setting where they hold no authority position...basically as a brother and sister studying His Word together.

Don't get angry and judgmental with us, this isn't our standard it is God's.

 

[Erinwilcox]

MOD HAT ON

Remember Rule 2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member or group of members;
- Ridiculing another member's beliefs;
- Ridiculing public figures important to another's beliefs;
- Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian;
- Asking loaded questions that directly cause flames in response;
- Using sarcasm to attempt any of the above; and
- Threats of any sort.


Let's keep this a friendly discussion between brethren.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Ringo84]

You may deny God and the authority of His word, but you will be held to account one day.

BTW, insulting people is no way to win people over to your point of view.

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm honestly sorry if you read it that way. I'm just sick of the literal interpretations. Just 'cause they happened to do things one certain way during Bible times doesn't mean we have to do it that way now.
Ringo

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Nice try. But it falls short.

Actually his argument doesn't fall short. The following verse from John uses the exact same word for servant.

John 12:26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

As you can see it wouldn't make sense to translate it as deacon. In fact the Bible tells us deacons are to be the hubands of one wife. I hope she wasn't the husband of one wife. Several english translations get it right and don't transfer Romans 16:1 as deacon.

 

[Ringo84]

Not in my church. The first deacons came to be when the issue of the Greek widows' food distribution came up--they were to organize/distribute the food and do other such duties so that the pastor could focus on preaching. That is what the deacons do in my church. Maybe we're talking about two different things with the same name. . .


Where is your scriptural evidence of this?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

God's Word IS law--when He has said that women are not to teach, can we then say that it's okay now because our culture is different? He never changes and neither does His law. Please, show me from the Bible where it says plainly that women can teach.

It's God's word, but it's open to interpretation. And those verses are most definitely open to interpretation. I'm honestly not satisfied with the interpretations here.

I'll modify those posts above, by the way.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

Actually his argument doesn't fall short. The following verse from John uses the exact same work for servant.

John 12:26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

As you can see it wouldn't make sense to translate it as deacon. In fact the Bible tells us deacons are to be the hubands of one wife. I hope she wasn't the husband of one wife. Several english translations get it right and don't transfer Romans 16:1 as deacon.

Could a "servant" not be a man or a woman?

And I read that the verse about "husband of one wife" had to do with monogamy, not gender roles.
Ringo

 

[JacobHall86]

It's God's word, but it's open to interpretation. And those verses are most definitely open to interpretation.

No, they arent.

2 Peter 1:20-21.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Jacob,
Just curious as to this oft held view...

I see the world in Black and White, Good and Evil, Right and Wrong.

Is God, also, color blind? Can such limited physical constraints even be applied to God?

Is there difference between right and good? If so, does God bless this distinction?

What of the difference between bad and evil? Do both endure God's wrath equally?

If God is, indeed, color blind why were we given technicolor vision if we are expected to view the world only in black and white?

I, too, once believed the world was to be viewed in black and white until one day The Lord opened my eyes and I realized trees are green and the sky blue.

Our worldy word pictures are of the colors we paint them and, yea, this does not always mean the world is truly so colored.

The trite utterings of our rationalized relativisms do, indeed, weave the warp and woof of our separation from God.

Well, I'll just be on my musing way now.... :o

 

[JacobHall86]

I most certainly do believe that God sees the world in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil.

I see that grass is green and that the sky is blue, but that doesnt mean I have to see greys instead of black or white.

 

[mont974x4]

Jacob,
Just curious as to this oft held view...

Is God, also, color blind? Can such limited physical constraints even be applied to God?

Is there difference between right and good? If so, does God bless this distinction?

What of the difference between bad and evil? Do both endure God's wrath equally?

If God is, indeed, color blind why were we given technicolor vision if we are expected to view the world only in black and white?

I, too, once believed the world was to be viewed in black and white until one day The Lord opened my eyes and I realized trees are green and the sky blue.

Our worldy word pictures are of the colors we paint them and, yea, this does not always mean the world is truly so colored.

The trite utterings of our rationalized relativisms do, indeed, weave the warp and woof of our separation from God.

Well, I'll just be on my musing way now.... :o

God certainly does set black and white absolute standards. There is also the issue of what some may call grey areas but upon close inspection they fade to either black or white...such as the meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Cor 8 -10. We have great freedom under grace in many areas but in love for others we defer our freedoms so not to create stumbling blocks.


As to the issue of women in leadership over men...there is no room for grey. It is straight forward. As are the Ten Commandments.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Could a "servant" not be a man or a woman?

And I read that the verse about "husband of one wife" had to do with monogamy, not gender roles.
Ringo

A woman certainly can be a servant of the Lord. A deacon of the church though has a list of qualifications. One of those being the husband of one wife.

If it wasn't for the verses telling us the roles men and women should play I wouldn't have a problem having a woman pastor. Since God has spoken on this topic though I will follow his will over man's logic. We can use human reason to justify things like women pastors, allowing active homosexuals to be members in the church and also accepting evolution as a valid Christian idea of creation. I rather though place my trust in an almighty God who is perfect and is much more knowing then I will ever be.

A book that is really good on this topic that is also free online is Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. It is by John Piper, a well respected pastor. I have to admit I have not read the whole thing yet but I plan too. What I have read is good and will give more insight then my posts will.

 

[Ringo84]

No, they arent.

2 Peter 1:20-21.

Yes, they are. Just like any other great work or piece of literature.

When you advance theories like that, it's easy to read the Bible and see passages calling for the stoning of disobedient children. Calling people to not shave their beards. To not wear clothes stitched from two separate fabrics. It's not a careful interpretation of the Bible according to what God says and the old laws - it's legalism. It strips all the great poetry and more abstract symbology of the Bible and makes it all cold black and white. So I have to disagree with you strongly about that. It's absolutely open to interpretation.

Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

A woman certainly can be a servant of the Lord. A deacon of the church though has a list of qualifications. One of those being the husband of one wife.

If it wasn't for the verses telling us the roles men and women should play I wouldn't have a problem having a woman pastor. Since God has spoken on this topic though I will follow his will over man's logic. We can use human reason to justify things like women pastors, allowing active homosexuals to be members in the church and also accepting evolution as a valid Christian idea of creation. I rather though place my trust in an almighty God who is perfect and is much more knowing then I will ever be.

A book that is really good on this topic that is also free online is Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. It is by John Piper, a well respected pastor. I have to admit I have not read the whole thing yet but I plan too. What I have read is good and will give more insight then my posts will.

Which is about monogamy.
Ringo

 

[Joykins]

The differance between a woman being ordained and a black person being ordained is that the Bible doesnt say that women are to remain quiet in Church. How can you Preach if you are to remain quiet in church?

Sign language?

Joy, suddenly wondering what they do at Deaf churches, or if there are Deaf churches (there's a Deaf college near me, so I suppose it's possible there are Deaf churches as well)

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Which is about monogamy.
Ringo

That is fine. If he lives in Utah with his 7 wives then that would not be fine. I really do hope you check out that link I gave you by the way.

 

[JacobHall86]

Yes, they are. Just like any other great work or piece of literature.

When you advance theories like that, it's easy to read the Bible and see passages calling for the stoning of disobedient children. Calling people to not shave their beards. To not wear clothes stitched from two separate fabrics. It's not a careful interpretation of the Bible according to what God says and the old laws - it's legalism. It strips all the great poetry and more abstract symbology of the Bible and makes it all cold black and white. So I have to disagree with you strongly about that. It's absolutely open to interpretation.


Ringo

The Bible is not open for interpretation. You can rationalize it as much as you want, but the Bible is not open for interpretation. The Bible is cut and dry.

 

[mont974x4]

Yes, they are. Just like any other great work or piece of literature.

When you advance theories like that, it's easy to read the Bible and see passages calling for the stoning of disobedient children. Calling people to not shave their beards. To not wear clothes stitched from two separate fabrics. It's not a careful interpretation of the Bible according to what God says and the old laws - it's legalism. It strips all the great poetry and more abstract symbology of the Bible and makes it all cold black and white. So I have to disagree with you strongly about that. It's absolutely open to interpretation.


Ringo

Nowhere does God give us the right to interpret where He has clearly set boundries.

To compare the Bible to idle poetry is rather disturbing but it does shed light to your view of the authority of Scripture.

As to the beards and clothes etc issues...look at the diference between OT ceremonial law and the moral law and the commandments and standards given in the NT. If you are going to hold to the OT ceremonial law you better obey the whole works.